David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Saint Steven]

@MMXX Anyone who "hates" God, hasn't met him yet.

 

[Saint Steven]

@MMXX Anyone who "hates" God, hasn't met him yet.

"Punishment is a failed version of correction." - Chris Green (at 36:20) @MMXX

A Theological Review of That All Shall be Saved with Chris Green & Brad Jersak
Since we believe the release of David Bentley Hart’s That All Shall be Saved is a significant event, we felt like it deserved a significant review! And who better to do it than these two distinguished professors and our dear friends, Chris Green, professor of theology at Southeastern University (and author of Surprised by God, The End is Music, Sanctifying Interpretation, & Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper) and Brad Jersak (Her Gates Will Never Be Shut, A More Christlike God, A More Christlike Way, IN: Incarnation & Inclusion, Abba & Lamb). We share our thoughts on Hart’s book, eternal conscious torment, inclusion, whether or not the language of universalism is helpful, and much more!

 

[Saint Steven]

@MMXX Inspired by the end of the video... (Chris Green speaking and me writing below)

Trust your spiritual instincts. God is good. Your intellect was not crucified on the cross. Since God is good, how can we attribute evil to him? "Hell" = evil

 

[Der Alte]

I hope I'm able to consider both sides of an argument. When there's Microbiology 101 instructions as to methods of isolating a microbe, and those methods have NEVER been followed in relation to a certain alleged pathogen, well you can only conclude the scientific proof is inadequate. It's a failure of elementary scientific methodology. Doctors, lawyers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians and even carpenters routinely diagnose problems in their fields by isolating them first. How can it be done any other way? Why should virology be special - because they use ridiculous hi-tech equipment lol? The whole shabby affair has been weighed in the balance and found wanting, imho.

Have you reviewed any of the studies that went in to trying to find a vaccine for Corona 19? My understanding is Corona viruses have been known about for quite some time thus #19, there were 18 known corona viruses before the current one. I wonder if any of the previous studies might have contributed to the current one?

Haha biblical hotel quarantine. Very droll der Alte. 'Unclean, unclean!'
Come out of her my people, lest her sins and plagues infect you (Rev 18:4).

Why is that a laughing matter? This just underlines what I said, quarantine is a well known and accepted method of limiting the spread of diseases.

I do consider much of the Bible, including the creation account, as literal, eg it describes a flat, stationary and enclosed earth - and that's the truth, as confirmed by many strong observational, experimental and logical proofs. So will you now 'dance away from the edge' der Alte, and tell me Gen 1 is simply an allegorical tone poem, and the true literal reading is that the bronze-age goatherds weren't ready for the truth of modern (babylonian) cosmology with its water baal earth gyrating through near-infinite space, and this here 'planet' was once encircled by a giant water canape (maybe with a side of ice cream) that made everyone grow like giants and live 1,000 years?
Herr Alte, as I see it, sometimes the Bible speaks of earthly things, there it's literal. Sometimes heavenly things, there it's allegorical. Often it is amenable to both simultaneously (the spirit gives life to the letter...Gen 1 is a good example). My hermeneutical rule of thumb is that the heavenly prevails over the earthly to the extent of any inconsistency, but there probably shouldn't be any inconsistency to start with!

Lots of silly irrelevant cosmology here. There is a well known adage about interpreting the Bible "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." But I find with a lot of heterodox folks if the scripture as written conflicts with their assumptions/presuppositions they find some way to SPAM-fig it, symbolical, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. Presto chango now it fits.

I don't use BDAG as the touchstone and ultimate arbiter of scriptural interpretation, and in this you may have an advantage sir. (also a sprinkling de sarcasm).

I don't exactly use BDAG or BDB for scripture interpretation but I do use them to define words. Lots of folks make up their own definition of words to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions. Some even go so far as to say the language in the Bible is some kind of Holy Spirit language that only certain people can understand.

Der Alte, it appears that we are destined to have our theological differences resolved in the aion to come. Just remember (on the off-chance) a 'Depart from me' is, while dismaying and humiliating, not all bad, because it means one is being sent to get cleansed and healed (not to roast til your eyeballs pop out and then some). Corrected of our misnomers and errors, purified of all our bitter resentments and de-leavened of our self-righteous phariseeisms. Something to look forward to for everyone! It's always Good news, enfin.

Too bad Jesus never said anything like that.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Have you reviewed any of the studies that went in to trying to find a vaccine for Corona 19? My understanding is Corona viruses have been known about for quite some time thus #19, there were 18 known corona viruses before the current one. I wonder if any of the previous studies might have contributed to the current one?

My word der Alte, I've reviewed many papers with the assistance of experts in the field, from the main papers that claimed to identify and characterise the virus, to the main drug company studies and the commentary and peer-reviews on the same, and lots in between.

Coronaviruses are described in leading textbooks as recent as the 1980s as 'common cold'. No coronavirus has been properly isolated, but instead pieced together from genetic fragments by the most arbitrary methods, like this:

But with a 'new coronavirus' it's like there's 30 million pieces of 4 colours, from which they draw 30,000 pieces and no or a very vague reference image to work off. Good luck!

Why is that a laughing matter? This just underlines what I said, quarantine is a well known and accepted method of limiting the spread of diseases.

Yes, quarantine for infectious individuals is Biblical.

Lots of silly irrelevant cosmology here. There is a well known adage about interpreting the Bible "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense." But I find with a lot of heterodox folks if the scripture as written conflicts with their assumptions/presuppositions they find some way to SPAM-fig it, symbolical, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. Presto chango now it fits

No, the Bible literally describes a flat, stationary enclosed earth.

I don't exactly use BDAG or BDB for scripture interpretation but I do use them to define words. Lots of folks make up their own definition of words to make scripture fit their assumptions/presuppositions. Some even go so far as to say the language in the Bible is some kind of Holy Spirit language that only certain people can understand.

Ok, but can BDAG translate tongues, eg the language of angels?

Too bad Jesus never said anything like that.

Lol.

 

[Saint Steven]

Coronaviruses are described in leading textbooks as recent as the 1980s as 'common cold'. No coronavirus has been properly isolated, but instead pieced together from genetic fragments by the most arbitrary methods, like this:

That's great illustration of what we are seeing here with the Plandemic. (Dampanic?) Never quite sure of the correct spelling.

What's wrong with this picture? - lol

 

[ozso]

Have you reviewed any of the studies that went in to trying to find a vaccine for Corona 19? My understanding is Corona viruses have been known about for quite some time thus #19, there were 18 known corona viruses before the current one. I wonder if any of the previous studies might have contributed to the current one?

The new name of this disease is coronavirus disease 2019, abbreviated as COVID-19.

CDC FAQ

 

[Clare73]

No, the issue is whether it was a garbage dump or not. That was literally the entire point of my original post. Here it is again:

That's the only argument I've even made in this topic, to point out the above. You apparently took massive offense with it and that started up this whole argument.

If you think the question of whether it was a garbage dump or not is irrelevant to whatever argument you're asserting, then go ahead with that argument! I never took issue in this topic with anything other than the claim of it being a garbage dump, which I wanted to point out there was slim evidence for. If you don't even think the question matters to what you're arguing, I'm not sure why you've spent so much time declaring I'm wrong on the above point.

Looks like I misunderstood you, and we are in agreement.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Clare73]

I can remember when FDR was president.
I was a medic traipsing through the woods playing "war" in Germany with the Army when I heard about JFK's assassination on somebody else's transistor radio walking through dark as midnight woods. I was getting ready to take a seriously ill soldier, pneumonia, to a hospital. His superiors tried to stop me but my "medical opinion" out ranked their objections. And rightly so he could have died if I hadn't taken him to the hospital. His leaders complained to my boss, the Dr., who succinctly put them in their place.

That's 15 presidents! Octogenarian, are you?

How are your memory and cognitive power holding up? Some do better than others.

 

[Der Alte]

That's 15 presidents! Octogenarian, are you?
How are your memory and cognitive power holding up? Some do better than others.

Cognitive abilities? Mongo just small cog in game of life. The cogs are still working, kind of, everything else is shot. Octogenarian? No I only have 2 legs.
I thought you might ask me what a transistor radio is. That was "High Tech" 50 years ago.

 

[Clare73]

I tend to concur with Brian's answers, but not fully.

The idea that hell is a 'necessary evil' to keep ppl on the 'straight and narrow' is totally debunked.

That notion is so simplistic (not the same as "simple"). The church never thought that in the first place.

 

[Clare73]

You don't understand the view then. By His stripes we are healed. Sin is a plauge in this present age. Sin and death needed to be vanquished. We needed a new Adam.

If that's all that the problem was, Jesus could have achieved those things without suffering on the cross.

Scripture is clear that it is about God's justice requiring satisfaction.

Minimizing that minimizes sin, both its consequences and its remedy.

We are not wiser than God that we should downgrade the offense against him to merely our need for healing of sickness, which certainly would not have required such a high price for our ransom.

Let's not gloss over the real problem which Jesus solved--justice.

 

[ozso]

Jesus could have achieved those things without suffering on the cross.

Much more had to be at stake.

You are minimizing sin, both its consequences and its remedy.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that I'm not going along with Eternal Torment.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that I'm not going along with Eternal Torment.

Eternal torment means that somehow the atonement was not enough. That there was some deficiency in what Christ did on our behalf. It just wasn't enough to pay the death penalty. That death wins. That sin is triumphant and unending. That the sovereignty of God is limited. And God will have to live with eternal regret for his poorly conceived plan.

That just can't be right. Who would claim such a thing? (not me)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Clare73]

Right. I have a sister-in-law who was raised in the church, who says she can't believe in a God that would do that to people. Which left us with trying to explain that which makes no sense. This was part of the catalyst that pushed me toward my current position of UR support.

So unbelief, by you and others, of the word of God written drives your theology.

 

[Clare73]

Exactly.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Which is the fire of suffering in dealing radically with our sin--"cut it off," "pluck it out"
(Mark 9:43-47), to avoid the "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:48).

 

[Clare73]

Jesus could have achieved those things without suffering on the cross.

Much more had to be at stake.

You are minimizing sin, both its consequences and its remedy.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that I'm not going along with Eternal Torment.

Because you don't think it necessary, loving or worthy of God. . .despite Jesus' revelation regarding it in Mark 9:43-48.

Eternal torment has nothing to do with the redeemed.
Jesus paid an awesome price to ransom them from it.

You've chosen the wrong side.

 

[Clare73]

Eternal torment means that somehow the atonement was not enough.

Not according to Jesus in John 3:18 and John 3:36, where eternal torment means refusal of the remedy for it.

It's not for you to redefine the teaching of Jesus (Mark 9:48).

 

[Clare73]

"Punishment is a failed version of correction." - Chris Green

And who's responsible for the failure?

I'm thinkin' the one that earned it and wasn't turned by it is the one responsible.

 

[ozso]

So unbelief, by you and others, of the word of God written drives your theology.

Unbelief in one theology leads to believing another theology. Unbelief in Calvin's theology that God predestined most people to Eternal Torment, leads one to Free Will theology.