David Bentley Hart on Hell

[ozso]

You might get a fairly thorough overview by reading my posts in this thread e.g. [post #251]., above, I document everything I post and provide links whenever possible.
I have posted and provided a link to what Jews contemporary with Jesus understood about Isaiah 66:24.

Jesus condemned what the Jews were teaching in His time. So it would seem if anything He was using their heresy and hypocrisy against them, while condemning them and pronouncing their impending doom via Rome.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good news for those that are "down in the dumps". - lol

I hope that translates well enough. To me, the term "down in the dumps" means feeling sad. And of course, a dump is a garbage site.

Good one. And if that's a viable practical translation of Gehenna, then yes Jesus saves us from hell (of despair, dismay and depression) - restores our spirits, sets us right, lifts us out of the dumps, puts us on the right path, gets the black dog off our back, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

I tend to concur with Brian's answers, but not fully.
The idea that hell is a 'necessary evil' to keep ppl on the 'straight and narrow' is totally debunked. It was an error of the early church (who used to teach it to catachumen as 'milk' and then progressively reveal the truth of salvation of all as 'meat' for the maturing disciple). I say error because it reflects a lack of trust in God and imposes a terrorist spiritual politics into the world. This is exactly how the Pharisees were inflicting the idea of Gehenna on to the people, and why Jesus is always 'flipping' it on on them eg, in the story of Richie and Lazarus, and the various indictments eg 'Sons of Hell', 'how are you gonna escape the judgment of hell', and so on.
The passage in Matt 10:28-33 (within the Matt 10 context) is very instructive on this, because it starts with the warning that God is more to be feared than man, because of His power to destroy the soul, but continues to say 'fear not, you're worth more than many sparrows' (v.31), then further to warn If you disown me on earth I'll disown you before the Father in heaven' (v.32-33). The chapter ends with a verse about a little kindness to brethren will ensure a disciple's reward is not lost (v.42).
Jesus here is busy correcting and redeeming the 'fear of God' from a 'spiritual terrorism' model to an 'offence against Love' model. The disciple should fear the shame of letting down their Father and friend, losing the honour and trust gained as the reward of keeping faith and walking in grace.
The terrorist model was again taken up by the Catholic church and particularly from the Emperor Justinian, who (with the help of Augustinian theology) reintroduced Roman law and anathematised the holy universalism of 'Origenism', in favour of an aristotelian materialistic naturalistic modality.
I believe that this was when God began to turn His face away from the church, and this led to the deepening of corruption, medievalism, the sack of Contantinople and the crusades, the schism, the reformation, modernism, and the total mess that variously calls itself 'the Church' we see today, that's willing to shut up shop for Passover/ Easter communion and pretend its ok to do it via Zoom, because of some fake health scare. Blind guides abound, so many under the sorceries of babylon. The mark of the Beast and revealing of the man of sin are just around the corner.
If people had been prepared to maintain the trust in God that giving others the simple apostolic good news that God was reconciled to them, and all they needed to do was to look to Christ to be free from the curse of sin and death, without the 'extra motivation' of a bonus afterlife fire insurance policy, we could all be living in the Kingdom now. But Satan got in and tempted man back to self-righteousness, vanity, cruelty and the night terrors.
Forgive us Father and save us from the tyranny of our flesh, for we are but dust, serpent-fodder.

Unsupported inflammatory rhetoric. In current parlance "cancel culture."
Re; your comment "because of some fake health scare." A pastor friend of mine, his wife and adult son were hospitalized by that "fake health scare." I lost a brother and a sister in January. The father of a friend also died for that "fake health scare."
Please explain in the OT why were people segregated who had a draining sore, menstrual period, touched a dead body etc? Couldn't God just instantly make them clean?

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus condemned what the Jews were teaching in His time. So it would seem if anything He was using their heresy and hypocrisy against them, while condemning them and pronouncing their impending doom via Rome.

Nonsense. Twisting the words of scripture and the historical sources trying to make them say what you want them to.

 

[ozso]

I don't think orthodoxy denies eternal punishment.
And people who think and feel that way are not born again, and nothing they do will get them to heaven.

Based on stuff I've heard Arch Bishop Lazar and others say, the Orthodox view is different and nicer than the Western view. But I haven't delved into it much.

As far as those not born again, most of them talk about their loved ones being in heaven and tell people they disapprove of to "burn in hell". And also refrain from things like murder in fear of hell where "really bad people" go.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Unsupported inflammatory rhetoric. In current parlance "cancel culture."
Re; your comment "because of some fake health scare." A pastor friend of mine, his wife and adult son were hospitalized by that "fake health scare." I lost a brother and a sister in January. The father of a friend also died for that "fake health scare."

Just because they misdiagnose something doesn't make it so, der Alte. Truth is the agent has never been properly isolated, characterised, let alone proven pathogenic. So I'm sorry for your loss, but you'll find the answers in influenza and pneumonia.

Please explain in the OT why were people segregated who had a draining sore, menstrual period, touched a dead body etc? Couldn't God just instantly make them clean?

Not instantly, but they were cleansed and returned. The LoF may seem like an eternity to the hardened reprobate, but he can't resist the fullers soap treatment forever.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Christianity is so pagan in some respects. I can't believe we still use the word Easter as the day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. - lol

Post #24 by @ViaCrucis here really addresses this well.

 

[Der Alte]

Just because they misdiagnose something doesn't make it so, der Alte. Truth is the agent has never been properly isolated, characterised, let alone proven pathogenic. So I'm sorry for your loss, but you'll find the answers in influenza and pneumonia.

And you got your medical degree where?

Not instantly, but they were cleansed and returned. The LoF may seem like an eternity to the hardened reprobate, but he can't resist the fullers soap treatment forever.

You missed the point. They were cleansed but they first had to isolate. Which seems to be a fairly effective way of preventing the spread of disease/uncleanness.
What I think everyone should do is when scripture as written contradicts their strongly held assumptions/presuppositions just consider them symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative any thing but literal. <sarcasm>

 

[ozso]

Nonsense. Twisting the words of scripture and the historical sources trying to make them say what you want them to.

Wrong.

 

[JSRG]

I think you are correct about Gehenna not being a garbage dump. Even though I have heard the argument that it was. In a quick search I couldn't find any data to prove otherwise. There may be proof, I just haven't found it.

What are your thoughts on some of the other claims of UR? Do you believe in a forever burning hell?

While I occasionally read arguments about it here, I don't have a strong enough opinion on the subject to usually get involved in arguments about it. Normally when I do it's because there's a specific argument or statement someone made (on either side of the issue) that I think was fallacious.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And you got your medical degree where?

I hope I'm able to consider both sides of an argument. When there's Microbiology 101 instructions as to methods of isolating a microbe, and those methods have NEVER been followed in relation to a certain alleged pathogen, well you can only conclude the scientific proof is inadequate. It's a failure of elementary scientific methodology. Doctors, lawyers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians and even carpenters routinely diagnose problems in their fields by isolating them first. How can it be done any other way? Why should virology be special - because they use ridiculous hi-tech equipment lol? The whole shabby affair has been weighed in the balance and found wanting, imho.

You missed the point. They were cleansed but they first had to isolate. Which seems to be a fairly effective way of preventing the spread of disease/uncleanness.

Haha biblical hotel quarantine. Very droll der Alte. 'Unclean, unclean!'

Come out of her my people, lest her sins and plagues infect you (Rev 18:4).

What I think everyone should do is when scripture as written contradicts their strongly held assumptions/presuppositions just consider them symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative any thing but literal. <sarcasm>

I do consider much of the Bible, including the creation account, as literal, eg it describes a flat, stationary and enclosed earth - and that's the truth, as confirmed by many strong observational, experimental and logical proofs. So will you now 'dance away from the edge' der Alte, and tell me Gen 1 is simply an allegorical tone poem, and the true literal reading is that the bronze-age goatherds weren't ready for the truth of modern (babylonian) cosmology with its water baal earth gyrating through near-infinite space, and this here 'planet' was once encircled by a giant water canape (maybe with a side of ice cream) that made everyone grow like giants and live 1,000 years?

Herr Alte, as I see it, sometimes the Bible speaks of earthly things, there it's literal. Sometimes heavenly things, there it's allegorical. Often it is amenable to both simultaneously (the spirit gives life to the letter...Gen 1 is a good example). My hermeneutical rule of thumb is that the heavenly prevails over the earthly to the extent of any inconsistency, but there probably shouldn't be any inconsistency to start with!

I don't use BDAG as the touchstone and ultimate arbiter of scriptural interpretation, and in this you may have an advantage sir. (also a sprinkling de sarcasm).

Der Alte, it appears that we are destined to have our theological differences resolved in the aion to come. Just remember (on the off-chance) a 'Depart from me' is, while dismaying and humiliating, not all bad, because it means one is being sent to get cleansed and healed (not to roast til your eyeballs pop out and then some). Corrected of our misnomers and errors, purified of all our bitter resentments and de-leavened of our self-righteous phariseeisms. Something to look forward to for everyone! It's always Good news, enfin.

 

[Saint Steven]

As far as those not born again, most of them talk about their loved ones being in heaven and tell people they disapprove of to "burn in hell". And also refrain from things like murder in fear of hell where "really bad people" go.

Right. I have a sister-in-law who was raised in the church, who says she can't believe in a God that would do that to people. Which left us with trying to explain that which makes no sense. This was part of the catalyst that pushed me toward my current position of UR support.

 

[Saint Steven]

Just because they misdiagnose something doesn't make it so, der Alte. Truth is the agent has never been properly isolated, characterised, let alone proven pathogenic. So I'm sorry for your loss, but you'll find the answers in influenza and pneumonia.



Not instantly, but they were cleansed and returned. The LoF may seem like an eternity to the hardened reprobate, but he can't resist the fullers soap treatment forever.

Exactly.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

 

[ozso]

You might get a fairly thorough overview by reading my posts in this thread e.g. [post #251]., above, I document everything I post and provide links whenever possible.
I have posted and provided a link to what Jews contemporary with Jesus understood about Isaiah 66:24.

If they understood Isaiah they wouldn't have had their Messiah put to death. They are the least of creditable sources and whatever believed about Isaiah 66:24 was stuff they made up, because it's not based on scripture as the OT itself does not say anything about a hell of eternal torment.

 

[Saint Steven]

Post #24 by @ViaCrucis here really addresses this well.

Thanks. But it seems to confirm what I wrote, don't you think?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Christianity is so pagan in some respects. I can't believe we still use the word Easter as the day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

While I occasionally read arguments about it here, I don't have a strong enough opinion on the subject to usually get involved in arguments about it. Normally when I do it's because there's a specific argument or statement someone made (on either side of the issue) that I think was fallacious.

That makes sense. No reason to argue a side until you have chosen a side.

Do you recall reading this verse before? It describes "those who believe" as a subset of the "all people" being saved. Pretty interesting.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[ozso]

Christianity is so pagan in some respects. I can't believe we still use the word Easter as the day to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. - lol

Yeah, but we make up for it with Christmas. Nothing pagan in that.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah, but we make up for it with Christmas. Nothing pagan in that.

Right. I had a whole list in the composition of an earlier post. But I deleted it because it would have been very offensive to some of our pals here. Blessed are the peacemakers. (hold my tongue)

 

[ozso]

Here's a good conversation about David Bentley Hart's book:

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's a good conversation about David Bentley Hart's book:

Thanks, Brian
I have viewed that presentation before. (some time ago) But am viewing it again now.

I just paused to make an important point that is being discussed at about the 17:00 minute point in the video. Suggesting the use of the term "Ultimate Redemption" (note: no "ism") to replace the baggage that comes with the term Universalism.

Ultimate Redemption recognizes the importance of the redeemer, Jesus Christ, and that there is salvation in no other name. But what that means and how it comes about is in stark contrast to the wrathful God we have inherited from our religious upbringing.

Did Jesus succeed or fail in what he was sent to do?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.