David Bentley Hart on Hell

[PuerAzaelis]

And why would their punishment end if the entire time their rebellion against God continues?

Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.

The question may be whether eventually even the most hardened sinner must repent or not.

 

[PuerAzaelis]

My view of eternal damnation is quite simple. In the spirit realm, time doesn't exist.

So anything there is "eternal." So the scripture is correct. But the framework for understanding it is not common.

This is definitely a valid alternative - that our post-mortem state somehow partakes in the eternal nature not merely "sempiternal" duration.

Now, the question for me then arises - why is repentance not possible within that eternal nature also? The problem is that we picture that nature as a kind of unchanging moment in time. This may be because we have various ideas of God's simplicity or aseity. But is it true that nothing changes in eternity? If eternity is somehow above and beyond this contingent world can we say that anything changes in it?

 

[Ceallaigh]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” Romans 14:11

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

 

[Der Alte]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” Romans 14:11
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

Verses always taken out-of-context vainly trying to prop up universal reconciliation.
Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.”

Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”​

…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel?

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]​

After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.

1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.

1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.​

What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.

Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
…
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.

 

[Der Alte]

Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.
The question may be whether eventually even the most hardened sinner must repent or not.

There is an old adage "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
After even the briefest exposure to fire virtually everyone will say they repent but is it genuine?
Here is this world the recidivism rate for prisons is 83+% will the rate sincerely be any different in eternity?

 

[Clare73]

Here's an Orthodox icon of the Resurrection with Jesus trampling the gates of hell, pulling Adam and Eve out and broken locks and hades bound at his feet.

Jesus undid the original sin of Adam. He conquered sin and hades and death. He undid it all. That was the whole point of His crucifixion and resurrection.

Your icon looks modern, is it?

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps you should review Jesus' parable in Lk 16:19-31, regarding what was believed in Israel regarding fire after death.

Oh, I have!

A final appeal is made in this section on final impenitence to the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

“For in death there is no one that is mindful of Thee. He knows too that now is the time for turning unto God: for when this life shall have passed away, there remaineth but a retribution of our deserts. “But in hell who shall confess to Thee?” That rich man, of whom the Lord speaks, who saw Lazarus in rest, but bewailed himself in torments, confessed in hell, yea so as to wish even to have his brethren warned, that they might keep themselves from sin, because of the punishment which is not believed to be in hell. Although therefore to no purpose, yet he confessed that those torments had deservedly lighted upon him; since he even wished his brethren to be instructed, lest they should fall into the same.” (Augustine’s Commentary on the Psalms 6:6).

Note again Augustine’s Roman courtroom thinking in which he declares that after death God gets His retribution. I cannot help but think that the cultural milieu in which Augustine moved and thought deeply influenced his ideas about God just as much as his Platonic thinking.

Notice what Augustine missed – the Rich Man had already begun to repent in his torment because he, who formerly was unconcerned about others, now begs to have his brothers warned. This is a metanoia, a change of mind, in short – repentance. Augustine, and commentators even to this day, missed this.

Since Matthew is the Gospel to the Jews in which Christ presents Himself to them as the expected Messiah, I think it appropriate to take the symbols in the parable and apply them to national Israel in the Lukian parable.

How was national Israel rich? Through her special relationship with God as the chosen people. Israel had the riches of God’s presence and leading, the Temple, and the relationship they had. The priests were clothed in purple and fine linen. I believe upon hearing these words, the priestly class listening to Christ would have begun to identify with it and take closer notice.

If national Israel was indeed the rich man who fared sumptuously every day, who was the beggar? I believe it was the Gentile nations who had none of the riches of a relationship with God. No temple, no law of God, no prophets, and no true worship. In terms of the true riches, they were bankrupt. The crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table could be the incidental hearing of the Jewish scriptures or seeing the worship in the Temple from the Outer Court of the Gentiles. These were crumbs, but not the full meal which the Jews enjoyed.

In verse 22 both men die. When we think of death, it is normal to think of the cessation of life in the human body. But in Scripture, death connotes something besides that. In Genesis 3 we see Adam and Eve die, but they are still alive. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father says “For this my son was dead, and is alive again...” In neither case do we see the cessation of physical life. What we see is separation, Adam and Eve from Paradise, the son from his father’s presence. In the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, both men are separated from the condition in which they exist and find themselves in a new condition. Thus they “die.”

The rich man died to his existence and became poor. He was without all the luxuries and benefits which he had previously enjoyed, and this was a torment to him. This is a picture of Judaism, which no longer enjoys the special covenant relationship with God it once had. National Israel is no longer God’s special people. In the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, national Israel is cast out of the vineyard (the Kingdom of God) and replaced. These two parables describe the same event. National Israel’s covenant with God ended in AD 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. They are replaced by the Church, the nation of the Gentiles. Those who were once beggars for crumbs from God’s table now feast upon the riches of Liturgy, Sacraments, and the Word of God.

It is interesting to see how the beggar was brought to Abraham’s bosom. He was carried by angels. The word angel means “messenger.” Who were the messengers who brought the Gentile nations out of their spiritual poverty and into God’s rich and abundant mercy? The Apostles. They brought the message of the Gospel, the Good News of the Resurrection and God’s favor, to the ends of the known world, bringing with them the invitation to enter into the covenant which began with Abraham. St. Paul says “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” Abraham’s bosom is where the covenant father, Abraham, holds his children close to him in a special relationship.

On the other hand, in terms of their covenant with God being destroyed, national Israel was buried in AD 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman armies of Titus and the Temple razed to the ground. This burial was confirmed by later attempts to rebuild the Temple being met with disaster and death.

Yes. And the reality is that Jesus came to national Israel and addressed them, not us. He offered Himself to them as Messiah, as their divine Bridegroom, but when they continually turned Him down, He turned to warning them of the impending destruction of Jerusalem and the end of national Israel as His covenant people. THAT is the context of the Gospels, not some hellist fantasy cooked up by Roman Catholic apologists to scare the hell out of people and make them obey the pope.

And this bears on Jesus' presentation of the fire of Hades, how?

 

[Clare73]

No worries. Jesus said everyone is going to "hell".

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

"Salted with fire" refers to the suffering required in dealing radically with one's sin in vv.43, 45, 47--cut it off, pluck it out--to avoid the fire of hell (vv.43, 45, 47), not in order to enter it.

 

[Jipsah]

We're still left with Jesus' own use of Gehenna (the perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem) in Matthew 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48; Luke 12:5, where the fire is not quenched and never goes out.

.[/QUOTE] Take a stick of stovewood, toss it into the fire, amd see how long it lasts. The fireplace will be around for significantly longer.

 

[Jipsah]

God's sovereign Will is clear: that all men come to salvation in Him. Will the Will of God not prevail?

A question that,IMO, few address squarely; it has to be dodged with theological circumlocution.

The Calvinists assert that God is able to save all, but chooses not to. The Arminians counter that He would like to save all, but cannot.

See, that's what comes of plain thinking and plain speaking. Either God wants to but can't, or can but won't. I reject "can't" because is God is God, and I believe that any sentence that contains the phrase "God can't..." is necessarily idiotic. To say that God wants something but refuses to do it is little less ridiculous, but not by much. That He is able to do anything He chooses is implicit. You might get away with "He wants A but won't get it because He wants B more than He wants A, but He can't have them both" but not without the "God can't" which makes nonsense of any statement that contains it.

There is a third position, that God is both WILLING and ABLE to save all.

I can't see any logic that takes us anywhere else.

 

[Valletta]

Jesus didn't remotely honor Mary as the Orthodox and RCC do. Like us, she was a sinner in need of Christ's salvation, and it is ridiculous to say she never gave birth to other children as the Bible says she did, or that she ascended to heaven. Did she never go to the bathroom either?

Mary never sinned nor did she have any other children. You are misinterpreting the Bible, remember the Bible was not originally written in English.

 

[Jipsah]

Don't forget that there are a couple of texts that lean toward annihilation...

Wages of sin is what? Death. What can God do to both body and soul in hell? Destroy. The primary error is the belief that humans are intrinsically immortal beings who will end up spending our eternal lives either under perpetual torture or in perpetual bliss. I see nothing in to suggest that we all live forever no matter what. In fact, Scripture says precisely the opposite - the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Plain meanings. Sometimes Scripture simply means what it says, much as that may not suit a lot of people.

 

[Jipsah]

I think personally that you cannot call yourself a Christian if you do not believe in hell as a place of eternal damnation.

Fair play. I have my personal opinions, also worth the price charged, of those who think that He Who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" is also a merciless implacable torturer.

Jesus told us about hell.

Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game.

To doubt that Jesus was telling us the truth is to call Jesus a liar

Careful with that stick. You're going to have to change what our Lord said about God destroying body and soul in hell" to make it fit your doctrine. I'm content to leave it as He said it. Who's calling whom a liar then?

There are far too many testimonies of people visibly disturbed by being shown in the spirit hell itself and they all describe what is in other Biblically related books about hell.

Many are the same people who are regularly visited by spacemen and who God told that Trump would win in 2020. Not the folks I'd willingly accept a personal check from.

Satan is real. Demons are real.

And?

In the third realm of heaven is paradise and sheol separated by a chasm called 'Styx'. You do not have to believe it.

And I reckon I'll draw a curtain of charity across the rest of this silliness.

This book was first printed in the Latin language in 1455 at the Gutenberg Printing Press, invented by Johannes Gutenberg and is situated in Mainz, Germany.

FWIW, the first book known to have been printed on a press using moveable type was "Jikli", printed in Goryeo (Korea) in 1377. Herr Gutenberg didn't get his rig up and running until over 70 years later.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game. . . .

"Him who is able to destroy..." What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says that God has or will ever destroy a single soul in Hell.

* * *

FWIW, the first book known to have been printed on a press using moveable type was "Jikli", printed in Goryeo (Korea) in 1377. Herr Gutenberg didn't get his rig up and running until over 70 years later.

난 몰랐어.

 

[Clare73]

"Him who is able to destroy..." What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says that God has or will ever destroy a single soul in Hell.

난 몰랐어.

They are ruined, not annihilated.

 

[Der Alte]

They are ruined, not destroyed; i.e., annihilated.

Please see my [Posts #31-32][link] above.

 

[East of Eden]

Certainly if their punishment results in no rehabilitation I suppose it must continue.

Which begs the question if we could 'earn' our salvation by suffering in hell, why would Jesus have to die on the cross to save us?

 

[East of Eden]

Fair play. I have my personal opinions, also worth the price charged, of those who think that He Who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" is also a merciless implacable torturer.

Yep "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Note that our Lord said "who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". Now you'll certainly be quick to 'splain to me that "destroy" there doesn't really mean "destroy", while I will reply just as rapidly with "that's what He said, though, now isn't it?" I don't generally play the "what that really means" game.

Careful with that stick. You're going to have to change what our Lord said about God destroying body and soul in hell" to make it fit your doctrine. I'm content to leave it as He said it. Who's calling whom a liar then?

You mean He who said, "Where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched?"

Answer to your objection here, as usual, we need to look at the original language for proper context:

Will Wicked People Be Annihilated in Hell?

"Regarding apollumi, W. E. Vine comments: “The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being” (1991, 211).

Renowned scholar J. H. Thayer defined apollumi, with reference to Matthew 10:28, in the following fashion: “metaphorically, to devote or give over to eternal misery” (1958, 64).

Professor Oepke argues that apollumi does not suggest a mere “extinction of physical existence”; rather it involves the hopeless desperation of eternal separation from God (1964, 396).

Of apollumi in Matthew 10:28, A. T. Robertson writes: “‘Destroy’ here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment” (1930, 83).

It is hardly necessary to pile up additional testimony from respected New Testament scholars."

 

[East of Eden]

Wages of sin is what? Death. What can God do to both body and soul in hell? Destroy. The primary error is the belief that humans are intrinsically immortal beings who will end up spending our eternal lives either under perpetual torture or in perpetual bliss. I see nothing in to suggest that we all live forever no matter what. In fact, Scripture says precisely the opposite - the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Plain meanings. Sometimes Scripture simply means what it says, much as that may not suit a lot of people.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt. 25:46

 

[East of Eden]

Here is this world the recidivism rate for prisons is 83+% will the rate sincerely be any different in eternity?

Which will be simply a prison or quarantine for those who have chosen to be separated from God. As CS Lewis said, in the end, there will by two categories of people, those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says, "Thy will be done."