David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Saint Steven]

So what? At one point the Arian heresy was the dominant view in the church.

Currently the Damnationism heresy is the dominant view in the church. What to do... what to do... ???

 

[East of Eden]

Currently the Damnationism heresy is the dominant view in the church. What to do... what to do... ???

Believe it, it was Jesus' view also.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hitler was baptized as an infant, is he in heaven?

No worries. Jesus said everyone is going to "hell".

Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

Believe it, it was Jesus' view also.

Do you believe that the elect were predestined to eternal life?

 

[Der Alte]

So what? At one point the Arian heresy was the dominant view in the church.

Evidence, documentation, substantiation?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nonsense. Do you know where that thinking comes from? It is Medieval feudalism in which the idea was brought forth that the importance of a king made a crime against that king of landowner more grievous than if committed against a fellow serf.

Furthermore, in hellist thinking, all sins deserve eternal torment, which eliminates the gradiation of sins and the corresponding punishment for them. All sins are not equal, therefore the consequence for them cannot be the same in a proper establishment of justice.

Hardly. The Bible itself says, (and I didn't find this by putting my tenets first, Bible second), "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

Nevertheless, I do not say that all sins are of the same severity. This is somewhat akin to the misunderstanding of the Reformed TULIP's "Total Depravity". Total Depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they would be but for God's restraint of evil. It only means that everything a person does is sinful. This too, then: The fact that a person who transgresses the law in one regard is guilty of all, does not mean that all sins, infinite though each on be, are equal in severity. Besides even that, God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. Every lie, for eg, is not equal in severity. God looks on the heart to judge each one. Yet every lie is infinite, being committed again the infinite God.

As for Hell, I don't recall ever even hinting, nor reading Scripture any hint that the least sinner receives equal punishment as the worst. What I read says each will receive according to his sin. The Judge of all the World will do what is right. His justice is precise and thorough.

 

[Light of the East]

Nevertheless, I do not say that all sins are of the same severity. This is somewhat akin to the misunderstanding of the Reformed TULIP's "Total Depravity". Total Depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they would be but for God's restraint of evil. It only means that everything a person does is sinful. This too, then: The fact that a person who transgresses the law in one regard is guilty of all, does not mean that all sins, infinite though each on be, are equal in severity. Besides even that, God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. Every lie, for eg, is not equal in severity. God looks on the heart to judge each one. Yet every lie is infinite, being committed again the infinite God.

Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?

We do agree however, that the consequence for sin is in proportion to the deed(s) done, which means that there is no such thing as an eternal hell because there is no sin which is proportional to eternal punishment in hell.

 

[Mark Quayle]

People who take joy in the suffering of others are sadists. People who take joy in the suffering of the wicked do not have the heart of Christ.

I would do some soul-searching if I were you.

It is RIGHT to rejoice in the Victory of Christ over his enemies, without reference to the suffering that they must endure.

It is also satisfying to see justice done.

There are many references to NOT gloating etc. over the fall of the wicked, and certainly not over their suffering --but that is not what I am talking about.

"...all the men of Judah and Jerusalem returned joyfully to Jerusalem, for the LORD had given them cause to rejoice over their enemies."

"When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; they shout for joy when the wicked die"

"He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury...."

Would it be fair to suggest you do as much Bible reading as I do soul searching?

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?
We do agree however, that the consequence for sin is in proportion to the deed(s) done, which means that there is no such thing as an eternal hell because there is no sin which is proportional to eternal punishment in hell.

Was the punishment of the entire world by a flood proportionate to any sin that some committed. Was the punishment of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire proportionate any sins that only some committed?
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which is translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[Light of the East]

It is RIGHT to rejoice in the Victory of Christ over his enemies, without reference to the suffering that they must endure.

It is also satisfying to see justice done.

There are many references to NOT gloating etc. over the fall of the wicked, and certainly not over their suffering --but that is not what I am talking about.

"...all the men of Judah and Jerusalem returned joyfully to Jerusalem, for the LORD had given them cause to rejoice over their enemies."

"When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; they shout for joy when the wicked die"

"He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision.
Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury...."

Would it be fair to suggest you do as much Bible reading as I do soul searching?

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

The spirit they were of was the same spirit as the Old Testament verses you quote. The same spirit that Jesus rebuked in Matthew when He told them to love their enemies and do good to those who abused them. You appear to not understand that the Jews were not exactly on target with their thinking in all situations. Because they rejoiced in their victory does not mean that this was something God commanded them to do. Or have you forgotten that it is said that the Lord does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't think you mean that you find joy in the suffering of those in hell, and yet that is an appropriate conclusion, isn't it?

It is not their suffering that brings joy. It is God's victory that brings joy. There is, of course a huge satisfaction in seeing justice done, too. But to the point of my rejoicing is not the suffering.

Perhaps hell removes the husk and leaves what God created. Does God create just to destroy? Is sin, or the human will, so powerful that God can do nothing with his own creation? I'm not so sure.

Not sure if you are understanding. I'm not talking about the destruction of the flesh, but of the very self, the soul, that is now completely apart from God, possessing of no redeeming value. A horror.

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Der Alte
Was the punishment of the entire world by a flood proportionate to any sin that some committed. Was the punishment of Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain by fire proportionate any sins that only some committed?

There is another way of looking at this. Not punishment, but an end to wickedness for their own good. Adam and Eve were not punished by being banned from the Garden. They were cast out as a protection so that they did not eat of the Tree of Life and live forever in a broken state of sin. this would be the same thing.
…..

 

[Light of the East]

QUOTE="Der Alte, post: Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Thank you for the links. I shall add them to my studies. Another Jewish source I found said something different, therefore what I was quoting was from that source.

 

[public hermit]

is not their suffering that brings joy. It is God's victory that brings joy. There is, of course a huge satisfaction in seeing justice done, too. But to the point of my rejoicing is not the suffering.

Okay, I don't want to misrepresent what you were saying.

We will rejoice in heaven because justice was averted by mercy through Christ's work, right? If God treated us with justice we would perish, or be in hell. So there is joy in seeing God's mercy and joy in seeing God's justice? That doesn't sound right. I understand joy in seeing God's mercy. But in seeing some not receive that same mercy would not bring joy. It would be heartbreaking, devastating.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Jesus said to forgive 70 x 7. To love your enemies. Father forgive them for the know not what they do.

The thing is Jesus was dealing with Israel shortly before they were about to experience their worst ever tribulation.

The warnings and judgements the Old Testiment prophets made against Israel right before the destruction of the Temple and Babylonian captivity were quite similar.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?

We do agree however, that the consequence for sin is in proportion to the deed(s) done, which means that there is no such thing as an eternal hell because there is no sin which is proportional to eternal punishment in hell.

Don't hold Calvin hostage to my words. I see I neglected to differentiate between the regenerated soul and the lost. Let me restate: The heart of the fallen does only wickedness. The mother of a child in the wilds of the Amazon, who has never heard the Gospel, may still love her child and care for her family selflessly, but she is still in rebellion to God in everything she does.

We don't agree about eternal punishment. To me every sin is infinite, because it is committed against infinite God. Eternal, also, is not, to my mind at least, in reference to a long long time, but perhaps to kind of punishment. Never over, but no passage of time at all. I remember a very bad electrical shock I had one time. What produced the 60 hz buzz I heard in my head had me unable to move, to even think. I'm sure it was no longer than a second, but the feeling was of no time at all, or maybe better said, of being outside of time, while it was happening. I was "past" the point of time passage, locked into the STASIS of shock.

Of course, whatever is beyond Scripture, I can only reason or speculate about the nature of eternal punishment, but I believe in it. I tend to call it infinite, because I don't trust the concept that comes to mind to move people at the term, 'eternal'.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Okay, I don't want to misrepresent what you were saying.

We will rejoice in heaven because justice was averted by mercy through Christ's work, right? If God treated us with justice we would perish, or be in hell. So there is joy in seeing God's mercy and joy in seeing God's justice? That doesn't sound right. I understand joy in seeing God's mercy. But in seeing some not receive that same mercy would not bring joy. It would be heartbreaking, devastating.

I don't mean to criticize here, but there is in most people a presupposition concerning the worth of a person, that God does not hold to. (Not at all to deny the worth of a person, but it is entirely according to God's use and assessment of them, and not a worth in and of themselves. WE, however, do not have God's wisdom, so it is not for us to disrespect other humans, nor to be unsympathetic and so on. This is why I say that the glorifying and final transformation of the born-again, upon reaching heaven, is antithetical to the state of the lost upon being cast in the lake of fire. The lost will have nothing about them to recommend them to anyone, no redeeming qualities, God having removed all graces and restraints. They will hardly represent the human you thought you knew on earth, just as those in heaven are exalted, but not in and of themselves, but in Christ, with whom they have become one. It is CHRIST in them that is their quality of being.)

So yes, we will rejoice that God's justice was done, and heart-wrenchingly so at the realization of the sacrifice of Christ in our place. But it is not just the mercy for which we will be so glad, but at the justice, in and of itself, which is also to God's glory. We will rejoice constantly at the amazing nature of our God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Which goes against the Bible. Apparently Calvin missed the verses which speak about men like Abel and Noah being righteous. There were also Zacharias and Elizabeth who were righteous. People who are sinful cannot be said to be righteous - or did I miss something somewhere?

Like I told one other, "Don't hold Calvin hostage to my words." I neglected to diffentiate between the lost and the redeemed in what I said about the enemies of God, and total depravity. Nevertheless, my use of the Doctrine of Total Depravity was by way of parallel about the

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

The spirit they were of was the same spirit as the Old Testament verses you quote. The same spirit that Jesus rebuked in Matthew when He told them to love their enemies and do good to those who abused them. You appear to not understand that the Jews were not exactly on target with their thinking in all situations. Because they rejoiced in their victory does not mean that this was something God commanded them to do. Or have you forgotten that it is said that the Lord does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked?

You seem to take everything I say to be in opposition to the many many places where we are told to be compassionate etc concerning our enemies. I am not opposing that. I am saying there is more than just that going on here.

 

[Ceallaigh]

We're still left with Jesus' own use of Gehenna (the perpetually burning city dump south of Jerusalem) in Matthew 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48; Luke 12:5, where the fire is not quenched and never goes out.
.

There are those who liken what Jesus was saying to be a national judgement of Israel. Remember that not too long after that in 70 AD Rome destroyed the Temple and a lot of Jerusalem. It was a holocaust where many Jews were killed and most likely their bodies were disposed of in Gehenna. Isaiah said where 'the fire is not quenched and never goes out' and similar things (along with other OT prophets) before Babylon destoyed the Temple and Jerusalem.

 

[Ceallaigh]

QUOTE="Lukaris,

Are you saying I should agree with Hart on universalism? I thought the Orthodox Church teaches the final judgment from Matthew 25:31-46 straight forward? We just had final judgment Sunday on March 7th in preparation for Lent. My Orthodox Study Bible does not teach universalism in its notes on the final judgment. Surely I do not believe I automatically get to go to heaven over anyone and I could go to hell. Am I reading St. Gregory of Sinai wrong when he stated:

No, we are saying that you should agree with the following: God is love and love would never do what Infernalists say God does to His children, even those who are dreadfully sick with sin. That alone should close the argument once and for all, but unfortunately, 1,500 years of pounding the hell message has made it seem like truth.

Secondly, Matthew 23-25 is about the destruction of Jersualem, not the end of the world. This puts a whole different light on the understanding of what Jesus is warning about. It is not the end of the world. There is no place in the chapters where you see Jesus do some sort of quantum jump from the destruction of the Temple to a time 2,000 years later.

Then there is the problem of mistranslation of the Greek. It is a problem throughout the Bible as the translators were Latins who did not understand Greek. Which leads me to the next question: has St. Gregory be translated correctly? I did some Google research and found that the English translations of some of the Fathers who appear to support eternal hell are mistranslations of the Greek. Of course, our English language has the Latin as its foundation. So we are back to the Latins mistranslating the Greek.

Chastisements differ, as do rewards of the righteous. Chastisements are inflicted in hell, in what Scripture describes as ‘a dark and gloomy land, a land of eternal darkness’ ( Job 10:21-22, Septuagint)

Notice that this says chastisements, which is exactly what the Universalists teach.

where sinners dwell before the judgment and whither they return after judgment is given.

Where do you find this in Scripture? This is a theologoumenon, not Scripture. The Scriptures show us that there is one judgment, after which the righteous enter union with Christ and the wicked enter chastening. It's in Revelation.

For can the phrases, “Let sinners be returned to hell’ (Psalms 9:17 Septuagint) and ‘death will rule over them’ ( Psalms 49:14, Septuagint) refer to anything other than the final judgment visited upon sinners and their eternal condemnation?”

This is Romish madness. Of all people, you as an Orthodox believer should know the difference between the law/punishment mindset of Rome and the medicinal/healing understanding of the East. Think about the time of year you are about to enter into. What do we sing at Pascha?

"Christ is risen from the dead, by death he trampled death"

Oh, no....wait. He didn't really trample death, did He? In fact, God keeps death going forever by creating a state of separation from Him called "eternal hell" into which He plunges billions of souls and keeps them in the state of death forever.

And you call that "trampling death????"

Not me, brother!

I will do some checking on the St. Gregory quote, but I bet you good money it is also a mistranslation. Thank the Roman Catholic Church for doing that.

Here's an Orthodox icon of the Resurrection with Jesus trampling the gates of hell, pulling Adam and Eve out and broken locks and hades bound at his feet.

Jesus undid the original sin of Adam. He conquered sin and hades and death. He undid it all. That was the whole point of His crucifixion and resurrection.