David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Der Alte]

A movie about barroom brawls is your online behavior model towards fellow Christians? The problem for me is that tends to rub off and I start fighting fire with fire, so I'm gonna have to say via con Dios. Happy clobbering

And here I was trying to be nice. You just reminded me of POTUS PJ totally misrepresenting my post. I most certainly was not modeling my online behavior after "a movie about barroom brawls". I merely gave credit for a phrase that I used, I "play nice until it is time to not play nice." I might be just as well that you bow out since you seem to have a problem with misrepresenting other posters. However after saying that I will continue to monitor such posts as I choose in particular those posts which misrepresent the beliefs/practices of others.

 

[Ceallaigh]

And here I was trying to be nice. You just reminded me of POTUS PJ totally misrepresenting my post. I most certainly was not modeling my online behavior after "a movie about barroom brawls". I merely gave credit for a phrase that I used, I "play nice until it is time to not play nice." I might be just as well that you bow out since you seem to have a problem with misrepresenting other posters. However after saying that I will continue to monitor such posts as I choose in particular those posts which misrepresent the beliefs/practices of others.

I wasn't being serious over a movie quote. But all the same, I find you too adversarial for my taste.

 

[Saint Steven]

For a good number of Christians, hell isn’t just a tragic shadow cast across one of an otherwise ravishing vista’s remoter corners; rather, it’s one of the landscape’s most conspicuous and delectable details.

I know whereof I speak. I’ve published many books, often willfully provocative, and have vexed my share of critics. But only recently, in releasing a book challenging the historical validity, biblical origins, philosophical cogency and moral sanity of the standard Christian teaching on the matter of eternal damnation, have I ever inspired reactions so truculent, uninhibited and (frankly) demented.

Opinion | Why Do People Believe in Hell? (Published 2020)

What do we think about this?

I'm 2/3 the way through David Bentley Hart's new book: That ALL Shall be Saved.

Well-written, and a good read. He even has his own translation of the NT available. So, he is well-informed of the NT Greek.

 

[East of Eden]

I'm 2/3 the way through David Bentley Hart's new book: That ALL Shall be Saved.

Well-written, and a good read. He even has his own translation of the NT available. So, he is well-informed of the NT Greek.

Not really, that book is rebutted here: David Bentley Hart’s Lonely, Last Stand for Christian Universalism

 

[Lazarus Short]

Not really, that book is rebutted here: David Bentley Hart’s Lonely, Last Stand for Christian Universalism

I have noticed that somewhere, somehow, everything, EVERY THING is rebutted, denied, refuted and contradicted by someone. Damnation, annihilation and universal reconciliation have all been both proven and disproven. It's like Schrodinger's theology...

 

[Saint Steven]

Not really, that book is rebutted here: David Bentley Hart’s Lonely, Last Stand for Christian Universalism

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Not really, that book is rebutted here: David Bentley Hart’s Lonely, Last Stand for Christian Universalism

Well, I went and read the article...a hit piece if I ever saw one.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, I went and read the article...a hit piece if I ever saw one.

Yes, the author does not hide his bias, nor his history with Hart.

 

[Lukaris]

Hart identifies as Orthodox but his teaching on the final judgment is not Orthodox. See section on the last judgment:

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org

 

[Saint Steven]

I think Hart aligns more with the historic orthodoxy of the early church. Universalism has its origins in the eastern church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Saint Steven]

An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org

Looks like you had dig through archives in Europe to find something to use against the American.

Looks like a copyright violation as well. But perhaps you had prior written permission from the author?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copyright by the author

All rights reserved. No part of this text may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of the author.

 

[Lukaris]

Looks like you had dig through archives in Europe to find something to use against the American.

It is a standard online catechism of the Orthodox Church that has been posted for over 15 years. Whether it is published in America, Europe, Middle East etc. it is basic Orthodoxy. As far as Hart’s being American or not, what of it? I am American descended from Arabs & American colonists.

 

[Lukaris]

Looks like you had dig through archives in Europe to find something to use against the American.

Looks like a copyright violation as well. But perhaps you had prior written permission from the author?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Copyright by the author

All rights reserved. No part of this text may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of the author.

Thank you for the copyright notification; I did not see it. Problem adjusted with info still accessible.

 

[East of Eden]

I have noticed that somewhere, somehow, everything, EVERY THING is rebutted, denied, refuted and contradicted by someone. Damnation, annihilation and universal reconciliation have all been both proven and disproven. It's like Schrodinger's theology...

Yes, it is a debate forum.

 

[Der Alte]

***

I think Hart aligns more with the historic orthodoxy of the early church. Universalism has its origins in the eastern church.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Ah yes, the ubiquitous quote from "Schaff-Herzog" presented as if it settles the matter once and for all. Unfortunately that is all there is to it, no, zero, none historical evidence supporting the claim.
Just because a scholar makes a claim that does not make it true. What is necessary is credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence. I have read the Schaff-Herzog article there is no evidence only the unsupported claim of a scholar.
Here is a link to the encyclopedia, try to prove me wrong.
Work info: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[prodromos]

I'm 2/3 the way through David Bentley Hart's new book: That ALL Shall be Saved.

Well-written, and a good read. He even has his own translation of the NT available. So, he is well-informed of the NT Greek.

You would trust a translation by a single, biased individual, rather than teams of experienced translators from different backgrounds striving to avoid bias?

 

[Lazarus Short]

You would trust a translation by a single, biased individual, rather than teams of experienced translators from different backgrounds striving to avoid bias?

I recall Robert Heinlein's dictum/joke that a committee is a creature with at least six legs...and no brain. Seriously, a team of "experienced translators" cannot avoid bias if each member has attended the usual seminary schools.

 

[Saint Steven]

You would trust a translation by a single, biased individual, rather than teams of experienced translators from different backgrounds striving to avoid bias?

A camel is a horse built by committee. - lol

 

[prodromos]

A camel is a horse built by committee. - lol

You prefer the pink unicorn?

 

[Saint Steven]

You prefer the pink unicorn?

If you can assemble a group of translators that are open to a UR view, give me the list. Thanks.