David Bentley Hart on Hell

[Clare73]

I bet if he had wrote that there wouldn't have been a complaint.

Indeed it is. . .when "salt" is used the same way in both, as sanctification, through retarding of corruption (sin).
Col. 4:6 - "Let your conversation be always full of grace (no corruption), seasoned with salt (which retards corruption)."
Mt 5:13 - "You are the salt of the earth (retarding pace of mankind's corruption). But if salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything,

except to be thrown out and trampled by men."
If the professing church (salt) losses its saltiness (sanctification/holiness), it will no longer be good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled on by the world.
Mk 9:50 - ". . .Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with each other."
Grace retards our corruptions (the source of our conflicts--James 4:1) and makes us peaceable.

Mk 9:49 - "Everyone one will be salted (sanctified) with fire (of refining).
In the suffering of dealing radically with their sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the fire of Gehenna (Mark 9:43-48).

I hope you didn't send a lot of time on that, because it was a rhetorical question.

What question?

About five minutes.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sez who?

It is when it reports the accepted Jewish teaching on eternal punishment in Hades of Sheol, which in addition to Jesus confirming in Mark 9:48, he also confirms in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Sheol in Luke 16:19-31, which parable would be meaningless for teaching spiritual truth if it were a myth.

Apparently you never read what the Talmud says about Jesus and Christians. Using the least reliable source ie the scribes and Pharisees and the Talmud as verification of a Christian doctrine you're supporting is thoroughly laughable.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I most definitely equate contention with simple, clear and plain texts of the God-breathed Scriptures as unbelief, and particularly when they are supported by other similar simple, clear and plain texts from the God-breathed Scriptures, no interpretation required.

"Thou shalt not murder" is not subject to "interpretation."

You're not making any sense. It's like you have amnesia regarding previous posts. As has been pointed out numerus times, what you yourself called figurative language, is not clear and plain text such as 'do not kill'. I'm not going to continue discussing this with you because you keep taking the conversation back to square one.

 

[Clare73]

Apparently you never read what the Talmud says about Jesus and Christians. Using the least reliable source ie the scribes and Pharisees and the Talmud as verification of a Christian doctrine you're supporting is thoroughly laughable.

Poor Jesus. . .I guess he didn't get the memo. . .he supports it in Mark 9:48. . .pretty simple and clear, "unquenchable fire."

 

[Clare73]

You're not making any sense. It's like you have amnesia regarding previous posts. As has been pointed out numerus times, what you yourself called figurative language, is not clear and plain text such as 'do not kill'. I'm not going to keep discussing this with you because you keep taking the conversation back to square one.

Is that a promise?

And yeah. . .square one is belief in the simple, plain, clear words of Jesus in Mark 9:48; i.e., "unquenchable fire." It's not complicated.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Sez who?

It is when it reports the accepted Jewish teaching on eternal punishment in Hades of Sheol, which in addition to Jesus confirming in Mark 9:48, he also confirms in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Sheol in Luke 16:19-31, which parable would be meaningless for teaching spiritual truth if it were a myth.

Just to be clear the Talmud is acceptable rabbinical teaching, not acceptable Jewish teaching. Most Jewish people today are rabbinical Jews but the two aren’t the same thing and there are Jewish people who don’t view the Talmud as authoritative.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Poor Jesus. . .I guess he didn't get the memo. . .he supports it in Mark 9:48.

Matthew 23, “woe to you, scribes and Pharisees...”

Not even an argument against the existence of hell because the Lord’s condemnation of the Pharisees extends to asking them how they will escape hell, just a caution on using sources which may not be the best.

 

[Ceallaigh]

.

 

[Clare73]

Matthew 23, “woe to you, scribes and Pharisees...”

Not even an argument against the existence of hell because the Lord’s condemnation of the Pharisees extends to asking them how they will escape hell, just a caution on using sources which may not be the best.

That's already been explained about 87 times in this thread (or at least it feels like that many).

Explain = Jesus didn't mean what he said.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “ It is because we have taken no bread.”

But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up?

How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?— but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

(Matthew 16:5-12, NKJV)

 

[Clare73]

Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “ It is because we have taken no bread.”

But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread? Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up?

How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?— but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

(Matthew 16:5-12, NKJV)

Any particular ones in mind?

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Any particular ones in mind?

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men.

They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it. ’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it. ’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?

Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

(Matthew 23:1-33, NKJV)

 

[JulieB67]

Is Jerusalem somewhere stated to be an unquenchable fire?

Jeremiah 17:27 "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

We know this was fulfilled that Judah did not hearken- they later went into captivity because of their idolotry, etc and Jerusalem was burned and destroyed.

II Chronicles 36:19 "And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof."


II Chronicles 36:20 "And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:"

II Chronicles 36:21 "To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years."


Jesus uses very much the same language that the propets did and often quoted them, etc, saying "Haven't you read"...

Even the garbage pit outside the Valley of Hinom eventually went out after the garbage was consumed. But it didn't go out until everything was consumed. Again, that's what a fire does.

 

[Clare73]

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men.

They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it. ’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it. ’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?

Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

(Matthew 23:1-33, NKJV)

That oughta' cover it. . .thanks.

Not so much their doctrine as their hypocrisy and corruption.

 

[Clare73]

Jeremiah 17:27 "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched."

We know this was fulfilled that Judah did not hearken- they later went into captivity because of their idolotry, etc and Jerusalem was burned and destroyed.

II Chronicles 36:19 "And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof."


II Chronicles 36:20 "And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:"

II Chronicles 36:21 "To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years."

Jesus uses very much the same language that the propets did and often quoted them, etc, saying "Haven't you read"...
Even the garbage pit outside the Valley of Hinom eventually went out after the garbage was consumed. But it didn't go out until everything was consumed. Again, that's what a fire does.

Thanks. . .it's my understanding it was kept burning for sanitation of the dump.

But only one reference to "not quenched," and when applied to earthly fire, I take it to mean it will not be extinguished by human means, but will burn itself out, but when applied spiritually to God's judgment on sin, it is unending.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

That oughta' cover it. . .thanks.

Not so much their doctrine as their hypocrisy and corruption.

Their hypocrisy was core to their doctrine. The rich man in hades was a Jewish man, he called Abraham “father” and yet was accused of not believing Moses or the prophets.

Personally, I believe in hell. I have seen in a dream what I believe to be people descending into hell, a smoky basement with no water, and while I don’t think hell is literally a smoky basement with no water I do believe it is real.

How-ev-er...

I think there are two main reasons people wouldn’t believe in hell: lawlessness and mercifulness.

Lawlessness comes from immersion in a secular materialist society that defines good and bad in terms of the individual’s self-assessed pursuit of happiness. Divine judgement is anathema to this. And yet, people immersed in this toxic cesspool are the sick in need of a physician as much as a baby unfortunate enough to be born in Chernobyl. The Rabbis told the adulteress she was condemned, the Lord set her free.

So even there, the Kingdom of Heaven defeats death and hell.

To the people who want mercy, who question whether it is justice to say Anne Frank is burning next to Hitler...doctrine won’t solve that.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

(1 Corinthians 13:8-10, NKJV)

 

[Clare73]

Their hypocrisy was core to their doctrine. The rich man in hades was a Jewish man, he called Abraham “father” and yet was accused of not believing Moses or the prophets.

Not in general, but in the parable not believing them specifically in regard to Jesus, as the Jewish leaders did not, who were represented by the five brothers in the parable.

Personally, I believe in hell. I have seen in a dream what I believe to be people descending into hell, a smoky basement with no water, and while I don’t think hell is literally a smoky basement with no water I do believe it is real.

How-ev-er...

I think there are two main reasons people wouldn’t believe in hell: lawlessness and mercifulness.

Lawlessness comes from immersion in a secular materialist society that defines good and bad in terms of the individual’s self-assessed pursuit of happiness. Divine judgement is anathema to this. And yet, people immersed in this toxic cesspool are the sick in need of a physician as much as a baby unfortunate enough to be born in Chernobyl. The Rabbis told the adulteress she was condemned, the Lord set her free.

So even there, the Kingdom of Heaven defeats death and hell.

To the people who want mercy, who question whether it is justice to say Anne Frank is burning next to Hitler...doctrine won’t solve that.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

(1 Corinthians 13:8-10, NKJV)

Couldn't agree more.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Not in general, but in the parable not believing them specifically in regard to Jesus, as the Jewish leaders did not, who were represented by the five brothers in the parable.

My understanding of that story was more along the lines that if they didn’t believe Moses and the prophets when they said, paraphrasing, “show mercy and kindness to the poor man begging for crumbs outside your own house” then they wouldn’t believe one who rose from the dead telling them to do that either.

 

[Clare73]

My understanding of that story was more along the lines that if they didn’t believe Moses and the prophets when they said, paraphrasing, “show mercy and kindness to the poor man begging for crumbs outside your own house” then they wouldn’t believe one who rose from the dead telling them to do that either.

Jesus last statement tells you what it is about; "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

Who rose from the dead? (Jesus)
What was the testimony of Moses and the Prophets (Deuteronomy 18:15; John 1:45; Luke 4:17-21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44)? (of the Messiah)
Who did not believe the testimony of the one who rose from the dead? (unbelieving religious leaders, represented by unbelieving five brothers and the rich man, making six)

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Jesus last statement tells you what it is about; "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." (Luke 16:31)

Who rose from the dead?
Who were not convinced by (disregarded) the testimony of Moses and the Prophets (John 1:45; Luke 4:17-21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44) regarding the one who rose from the dead?

You can’t just take one line out of context and then use that alone to say what it means.

The rich man asked for Lazarus to be raised from the dead to tell his brothers to repent.

So to answer your question of who rose from the dead...in this case...Lazarus. Who was raised from the dead by the Lord and the Pharisees still did not repent.

(and yes that may very well be a different Lazarus but it still did happen)