Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[public hermit]

Perhaps this, perhaps that. You make a lot of claims but do not back them up., Who said I was interpreting "perishing" as eternal torment? Where have I ever used the term "eternal torment?" In neither of those posts did I say anything about eternal torment. But Jesus did say that some would go away into "eternal punishment." You accuse me of presuppositions when all I did was quote scripture. I did not add to it or detract from it and you are bent out of shape because it does not say what you want it to.
Is God going to save all? See Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28. Is Jesus going to save all see Matthew 7:21-23.

What does Perishing mean in John?

 

[public hermit]

Again, it doesn't speak to the length of the duration. It only speaks to the fact that something goes beyond the boundary of the age. So something that is aionios is something that continues beyond the age. How long it continues or how long that duration is not expressed in the word.

This is important to understand because what this means is that something that is aionios should place our focus on the NEXT age. So AIONIOS LIFE should be telling us that this is LIFE that is into the NEXT Age. We don't know if it extends beyond that based on this adjective. I believe this meaning is perpetrated in making us focus on the Kingdom of Christ ahead in that next age.

Your saying it is undetermined. An aionios life is a life beyond this age but undetermined past that? Okay, I think I'm tracking what you're saying. It's life beyond this determined age but undetermined past that. Open ended?

 

[Der Alte]

• Yes, but AIONIOS is an adjective, it is describing something as it relates to the age. Let's take a verse for example:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Both 'everlasting' and 'eternal' in that verse are AIONIOS. None of them are saying that the LIFE or the PUNISHMENT is LIMITED and neither are saying that it is UNENDING. The word is simple saying that the LIFE and the PUNISHMENT will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE?" How far is concealed from us.. Consider that in the Old Testament this word is 'Olam'. And that word means 'concealed'. I like to think of it as the HORIZON. You don't know how far something goes beyond it but it goes beyond the horizon. How far is concealed from us.

Where does any scripture say "the LIFE and the PUNISHMENT will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE?" or "You don't know how far something goes beyond it but it goes beyond the horizon. How far is concealed from us?" You are just making stuff up to make scripture fit your assumptions/presuppositions.
"Olam" you don't know what you are talking about.

Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[olam/עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

 

[public hermit]

@Jeff Saunders We had a discussion a couple weeks ago regarding Augustine's admission that "indeed many" during his time rejected eternal punishment. I agree, we are facing a long tradition that has a long history, but it doesn't have the earliest history, and that's a problem. I also agree that Augustine played an outsized role in shaping the history consequent to him.

 

[Der Alte]

What does Perishing mean in John?

You tell me and I'll tell you if you are right. According to John 3:15-16, John 10:28 it is the opposite of aionios zoe.

 

[public hermit]

You tell me and I'll tell you if you are right. According to John 3:15-16, John 10:28 it is the opposite of aionios zoe.

Your interpretation is over-determined if you assume the opposite of aionios life is aionios perishing. He says aionios life and perishing. Nice try. We still have not determined what perishing is, but we know it's not aionios perishing.

 

[Deafsilence]

Your saying it is undetermined. An aionios life is a life beyond this age but undetermined past that? Okay, I think I'm tracking what you're saying. It's life beyond this determined age but undetermined past that. Open ended?

The Life exist in this age and beyond the age boundary and yes it is open ended to use your phrase.

 

[public hermit]

The Life exist in this age and beyond the age boundary and yes it is open ended to use your phrase.

How do you understand that? Do you take an agnostic position regarding UR, ECT, and conditional immortality? I ask because if the aionios life is not-determined, I am thinking an agnostic position would make sense. At least, what is beyond this age is not known in terms of duration.

 

[Deafsilence]

How do you understand that? Do you take an agnostic position regarding UR, ECT, and conditional immortality? I ask because if the aionios life is not-determined, I am thinking an agnostic position would make sense. At least, what is beyond this age is not known in terms of duration.

I believe it is illogical to conclude any other outcome but Universal Salvation. I don't like to say Universal Restoration because I don't believe there is a restoration. I believe the fall was a result of imperfection. If something was perfect then imperfection would not have come. It it like saying someone can have immortality but then take on mortality - it is defeating the very meaning of being immortal. Therefore, I don't there was anything to be restored to. Romans agrees with this:

Rom_8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[public hermit]

I believe the fall was a result of imperfection.

Me too; I believe we were created spiritually immature, pace Irenaeus. Of course, Augustine relies on Irenaeus for his doctrine of original sin, but I think he ate the peel and threw out the banana.

I don't like to say Universal Restoration because I don't believe there is a restoration. I believe the fall was a result of imperfection. If something was perfect then imperfection would not have come. It it like saying someone can have immortality but then take on mortality - it is defeating the very meaning of being immortal. Therefore, I don't there was anything to be restored to. Romans agrees with this:

I like the distinction you're making here. I applaud it, but I'm basically for anything that shows the horrendous nature of eternal conscious torment. It's time we rid ourselves of that parasite on the justice of God. If anything is illogical given the nature of God, it is that doctrine.

 

[Deafsilence]

Me too; I believe we were created spiritually immature, pace Irenaeus. Of course, Augustine relies on Irenaeus for his doctrine of original sin, but I think he ate the peel and threw out the banana.



I like the distinction you're making here. I applaud it, but I'm basically for anything that shows the horrendous nature of eternal conscious torment. It's time we rid ourselves of that parasite on the justice of God. If anything is illogical given the nature of God, it is that doctrine.

Yes, I agree but many are steeped in their tradition and wont look beyond it. Many of those that believe in Eternal Torment speak to Universalists as if they never knew or understood the doctrines of Eternal Torment, not realizing that many of us not only embraced Eternal Torment in our spiritual infancy but were zealous to persecute those that held to Universalism.

 

[public hermit]

Many of those that believe in Eternal Torment speak to Universalists as if they never knew or understood the doctrines of Eternal Torment, not realizing that many of us not only embraced Eternal Torment in our spiritual infancy but were zealous to persecute those that held to Universalism.

What? Say that slowly so I can tell if you're being ornery. (kidding)

 

[public hermit]

Yes, I agree but many are steeped in their tradition and wont look beyond it. Many of those that believe in Eternal Torment speak to Universalists as if they never knew or understood the doctrines of Eternal Torment, not realizing that many of us not only embraced Eternal Torment in our spiritual infancy but were zealous to persecute those that held to Universalism.

Yeah, I agree but it's inexplicable now. I guess I used to think everlasting torment made sense, but I cant't even trace how I ever thought that was true. I think most folks just don't think about it long enough to doubt it.

 

[public hermit]

I think most folks just don't think about it long enough to doubt it.

I guess I'm saying it doesn't take much to think it's horrible. It's a given, now.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but AIONIOS is an adjective, it is describing something as it relates to the age. Let's take a verse for example:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Both 'everlasting' and 'eternal' in that verse are AIONIOS. None of them are saying that the LIFE or the PUNISHMENT is LIMITED and neither are saying that it is UNENDING. The word is simple saying that the LIFE and the PUNISHMENT will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE. Consider that in the Old Testament this word is 'Olam'. And that word means 'concealed'. I like to think of it as the HORIZON. You don't know how far something goes beyond it but it goes beyond the horizon. How far is concealed from us.

That's an interesting way to look at it. But is there more to it?
The word "continue" carries with it the idea of continuation without interruption.
(unless I misunderstand you)

Seems to me that passing into the afterlife is a rather MAJOR interruption. - LOL
The souls "continue", I agree with that idea, but it must be transitional in some way. (many ways, actually)

And more than merely transitional, because of the process of restoration before leaving that age.
More like transformational, as each soul is "renovated", I suppose.

How do you address that aspect? (good discussion BTW, thanks)

 

[Saint Steven]

And what would the age of refining fire be like?

Reminded me of this... (presence, but no destruction)

Exodus 3:3 NIV
So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Is God willing to save all? Can God save all? If God can and is willing, what basis do we have to say it is not even possible? The scriptures are not clear. If they were, we wouldn't be discussing. The scriptures are clear that Jesus rose from the dead. What we can't seem to decide is how powerful that act is. Is it powerful enough to save all. If so, then is God simply not willing? Why not?

I love the way you whittled this down to the "Why?" question on this subject.
Where is the logic in the Logos?

Only three possibilities, what does each one say about the sovereign God? (in his hands, not out of his hands)
1) Eternal damnation - Why?
2) Annihilation - Why?
3) Redemption - Why?

One of these things is not like the others...
Eternal conscious torment, or even annihilation resolves NOTHING.
How could we even trust a God that would do such a thing? Are you next?

Redemption is the only choice that is a resolution to the story of humankind.
And the logical conclusion of the sovereignty of God.

Job 19:25 NIV
I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Where does any scripture say "the LIFE and the PUNISHMENT will CONTINUE beyond the boundary of the AGE?" or "You don't know how far something goes beyond it but it goes beyond the horizon. How far is concealed from us?" You are just making stuff up to make scripture fit your assumptions/presuppositions.
"Olam" you don't know what you are talking about.

Ecclesiastes 3:14​

(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[olam/עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

If olam means forever then why have the daily sacrifice stopped? Or should we still be doing it because God say they were olam

 

[Saint Steven]

The Life exist in this age and beyond the age boundary and yes it is open ended to use your phrase.

Doesn't this scripture indicate a closed end to this present age? (this age - αἰῶνι - aiōni)

Matthew 12:32 NIV
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I love the way you whittled this down to the "Why?" question on this subject.
Where is the logic in the Logos?

Only three possibilities, what does each one say about the sovereign God? (in his hands, not out of his hands)
1) Eternal damnation - Why?
2) Annihilation - Why?
3) Redemption - Why?

One of these things is not like the others...
Eternal conscious torment, or even annihilation resolves NOTHING.
How could we even trust a God that would do such a thing? Are you next?

Redemption is the only choice that is a resolution to the story of humankind.
And the logical conclusion of the sovereignty of God.

Job 19:25 NIV
I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

Plus it’s the only view that makes sense if Yahweh really did create his creation to have fellowship with , that’s what I have been taught since I was a kid that Yahweh created us to have fellowship with so he could share his love. That is the why .