Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Saint Steven]

Plus it’s the only view that makes sense if Yahweh really did create his creation to have fellowship with , that’s what I have been taught since I was a kid that Yahweh created us to have fellowship with so he could share his love. That is the why .

Exactly!
The other two views turn the creation, history, and future of humankind into an absolute nightmare.
A tyrannical god intent on destroying his own creation, save but a handful that he chose to set aside. ???

Making the only logical reason for worship to be out of complete fear. Not worship at all.
Sounds more like Nebuchadnezzar and his fiery furnace.

 

[Saint Steven]

@HSong -- Apologies. We are turning you topic into a free-for-all battle.

 

[Hmm]

Plus it’s the only view that makes sense

Agreed. The idea that God would torture or torment anyone for a single second let alone for eternity makes no sense but, even more than that, turns God into a sadistic monster and is a complete betrayal of Christ who came and died for us show us what God is really like (i.e. the prodigals Father not his Torturer, to spell it out which, amazingly, is still required for some!).

 

[Saint Steven]

Augustine relies on Irenaeus for his doctrine of original sin, but I think he ate the peel and threw out the banana.

No wonder this is such a slippery subject.

1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[Saint Steven]

Augustine relies on Irenaeus for his doctrine of original sin, but I think he ate the peel and threw out the banana.

I'm imagining a parody on the Fall, where the serpent says to Adam, "The fruit, the fruit; don't eat the peel you dummy!" - LOL

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess I'm saying it doesn't take much to think it's horrible. It's a given, now.

Which in my estimation reveals the source of such.

John 10:10 NIV
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

 

[Hmm]

Agreed. The idea that God would torture or torment anyone for a single second let alone for eternity makes no sense but, even more than that, turns God into a sadistic monster and is a complete betrayal of Christ who came and died for us show us what God is really like (i.e. the prodigals Father not his Torturer, to spell it out which, amazingly, is still required for some!).

Reading this back I realise, to my horror, that I missed an apostrophe 's' (in 'prodigals'). I fully repent but realise it's too late now (I could edit my post I suppose but that detracts from my point so I'll ignore that for now).

And so my fate of ECT is now sealed. And that's fair and I have no reason for complaint. I shouldn't have made that catastrophic apostrophe error. God has provided us with Grammarly and it's only through deliberate wilfulness and sin that I didn't install it and so it's a fair cop guv.

 

[Saint Steven]

When I was stuck at home on Covid quarantine, I was bingeing on these small scale precious metal refining test videos from this YouTube channel. Interesting how the process separates the precious metal from the rest.

156,428 views Jul 11, 2021
Smelting and refining gold ore tailings to determine how much gold is still locked up. By smelting the material down and performing a large assay the amount of gold left over in the coarse quartz ore can be determined.

 

[Saint Steven]

Reading this back I realise, to my horror, that I missed an apostrophe 's' (in 'prodigals'). I fully repent but realise it's too late now (I could edit my post I suppose but that detracts from my point so I'll ignore that for now).

And so my fate of ECT is now sealed. And that's fair and I have no reason for complaint. I shouldn't have made that catastrophic apostrophe error. God has provided us with Grammarly and it's only through deliberate wilfulness and sin that I didn't install it and so it's a fair cop guv.

Yes.
You stubbornly chose of your own free will to disobey Grammarly and go your own way. Grammarly's hands are tied. (that was a close one) Nothing can be done to remedy your wanton disregard for Grammarlyness, in exchange for going your own way. And look at the damage you have done, to yourself and others. Grammarlylessness is the gateway to mispelling (oops), run-on sentences, dangling participles, and questionable punctuation. For shame! (use the Chicago Style book next time, chapter and verse)

 

[Hmm]

And look at the damage you have done, to yourself and others.

I know, I've promoted the misuse of the apostrophe 's', may God forgive me although of course He can't because of the overriding rules of ECT.

Reminds me of the true story of a fresher who moved into the halls of an Oxford college. Down the corridor was the Dean's room but the sign over the door said "Deans Room". He couldn't sleep because of this and so he got up in the early hours and drew in the apostrophe with a piece of chalk so he could go to sleep.

 

[Saint Steven]

Reminds me of the true story of a fresher who moved into the halls of an Oxford college.

Context to the rescue.
While reading the sentence I arrived at the word "fresher", and wondered briefly what it meant.
At college, aha... what we call freshman. Got it. Still working on my English language.

Greetings to the land of maths and sport, from the land of sports and math.

 

[Deafsilence]

That's an interesting way to look at it. But is there more to it?
The word "continue" carries with it the idea of continuation without interruption.
(unless I misunderstand you)

Seems to me that passing into the afterlife is a rather MAJOR interruption. - LOL
The souls "continue", I agree with that idea, but it must be transitional in some way. (many ways, actually)

And more than merely transitional, because of the process of restoration before leaving that age.
More like transformational, as each soul is "renovated", I suppose.

How do you address that aspect? (good discussion BTW, thanks)

Ask yourself this. Is the Aionios Life existing right now? - yes. Is the punishment existing right now? - yes. I see a "spirit" as that part of something that defines a behavior or characteristic. I see a soul as the LIFE part or rather the exhibition of the "spirit". Therefore, when I see Holy Spirit, I don't think of it as a separate entity from the Father Himself. I don't see 3 persons in the Godhead. I see the Father and the Son and I see their substance as the Holy Spirit. Consider the following:

God made man and woman. They are both of the same substance - FLESH - who's flesh? - Adam's. Likewise, we use His (Father's) example to understand Him. Since God IS Spirit, what is formed from Him in a WORD is Spirit also. In fact, Jesus Says His Words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.

I've asked others before the following:

is the Father - Spirit?
is the Father - Holy?

The answer is YES to both. By His Spirit we cry ABBA - Father.

When a man is born is born resembling his father and mother. This resemblance should remind us that when we are born of the Spirit we should be resembling God our Father and our Lord Jesus in Spirit. We should be emulating His Son - Jesus.

 

[public hermit]

I love the way you whittled this down to the "Why?" question on this subject.
Where is the logic in the Logos?

Only three possibilities, what does each one say about the sovereign God? (in his hands, not out of his hands)
1) Eternal damnation - Why?
2) Annihilation - Why?
3) Redemption - Why?

One of these things is not like the others...
Eternal conscious torment, or even annihilation resolves NOTHING.
How could we even trust a God that would do such a thing? Are you next?

Redemption is the only choice that is a resolution to the story of humankind.
And the logical conclusion of the sovereignty of God.

Job 19:25 NIV
I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

It really does come down to two questions: Is God willing and is God able? I don’t think most Christians would deny either one, which means we are left with the inexplicable.

 

[Deafsilence]

I love the way you whittled this down to the "Why?" question on this subject.
Where is the logic in the Logos?

Only three possibilities, what does each one say about the sovereign God? (in his hands, not out of his hands)
1) Eternal damnation - Why?
2) Annihilation - Why?
3) Redemption - Why?

One of these things is not like the others...
Eternal conscious torment, or even annihilation resolves NOTHING.
How could we even trust a God that would do such a thing? Are you next?

Redemption is the only choice that is a resolution to the story of humankind.
And the logical conclusion of the sovereignty of God.

Job 19:25 NIV
I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

Yes, let's remember that Moses wanted to be blotted out of the Book of Life if God didn't save men from their sins:

Exo_32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo_32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

But Moses continued to serve the Lord, which tells me he came to understand that God would in time remove those sins.

 

[Deafsilence]

Doesn't this scripture indicate a closed end to this present age? (this age - αἰῶνι - aiōni)

Matthew 12:32 NIV
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Correct, great example.

 

[Deafsilence]

It really does come down to two questions: Is God willing and is God able? I don’t think most Christians would deny either one, which means we are left with the inexplicable.

I agree, and the thought that God knows the end from the beginning and does nothing in vain. Therefore, this should tell us that we are going to be saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

It really does come down to two questions: Is God willing and is God able? I don’t think most Christians would deny either one, which means we are left with the inexplicable.

Since we can have reasonable consensus on God's willingness and ability, it seems there is no alternative. (inexplicable, as you wrote)
A refusal on God's part would cancel out his willingness, and it being out of his hands would cancel out ability, not to mention sovereignty.

Some prefer that God surrender his sovereignty in order to "honor" human free will.

Back to our friend logic...
Would God plan to abandon his own sovereignty and let creation come to its own ruin?
What's the point of redemption then? Redeemed from God's own mismanagement? Creation as self-destruction?

Doesn't seem like the plan of the God who cares enough about us to number the hairs of our head.

Maybe that's another facet to explore? Cares or doesn't care?

 

[public hermit]

Since we can have reasonable consensus on God's willingness and ability, it seems there is no alternative. (inexplicable, as you wrote)
A refusal on God's part would cancel out his willingness, and it being out of his hands would cancel out ability, no

t to mention sovereignty.

Some prefer that God surrender his sovereignty in order to "honor" human free will.

Back to our friend logic...
Would God plan to abandon his own sovereignty and let creation come to its own ruin?
What's the point of redemption then? Redeemed from God's own mismanagement? Creation as self-destruction?

Doesn't seem like the plan of the God who cares enough about us to number the hairs of our head.

Maybe that's another facet to explore? Cares or doesn't care?

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans. God sacrifices humans on the altar of human freedom. Idolatry.

 

[Der Alte]

If olam means forever then why have the daily sacrifice stopped? Or should we still be doing it because God say they were olam

Does one exception make a rule? Where were the daily sacrifices made? Can they still be made there? Why or why not?
Here is a link to Brown, Driver, Briggs one of, if not, the most highly accredited Hebrew lexicons available the definition of olam. FYI the definition is about 1.5 pages long.

A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament : with an appendix containing the biblical Aramaic : Brown, Francis, 1849-1916 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

31

archive.org

 

[Saint Steven]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans. God sacrifices humans on the altar of human freedom. Idolatry.

Like sacrificing his children to Molech. (thus violating his own commands --- see Leviticus 20:3)