Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Saint Steven]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans.

Right. Like a parent that was informed that his children are playing in traffic, saying...
"Well, that was their own choice, why should I care?"

 

[Der Alte]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans. God sacrifices humans on the altar of human freedom. Idolatry.

Have either of you ever read Jeremiah 13:11-14? Just in case your Bibles don't happen to have this passage I will quote it for you. I am still looking for that verse where God says, "I will have mercy on them." You might also have a look at Romans 1:24, 26 and 28.

Jeremiah 13:11-14
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Does one exception make a rule? Where were the daily sacrifices made? Can they still be made there? Why or why not?
Here is a link to Brown, Driver, Briggs one of, if not, the most highly accredited Hebrew lexicons available the definition of olam. FYI the definition is about 1.5 pages long.

A Hebrew and English lexicon of the Old Testament : with an appendix containing the biblical Aramaic : Brown, Francis, 1849-1916 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

31

archive.org

You would be correct if that were the only one but it is not

 

[Der Alte]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans. God sacrifices humans on the altar of human freedom. Idolatry.

Or maybe according to some we care more about all the scriptures versus a few out-of-context proof texts.

 

[Saint Steven]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans.

Amazing the lengths humans will go to to rescue another human, even against their will, e.g. suicide victims, or those risking life and limb in various activities, e.g. auto racing and other dangerous sports. Like wingsuit base jumping.

19,597,564 views Oct 27, 2013
Best of F.A.S.T. is a session of wingsuit flying and base jumping from Brazil 100% GOPRO - 100% BRAZIL

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You would be correct if that were the only one but it is not

I will give a few verses that show olam does not have to be forever, Ps 143:3 , Lam 3:6 , Gen 49:26, Habakkuk 3:6, Due33:15 , Due 15:17, 1Sam 27:12, Lev 25:46, Gen 17:7, 1Kings 9:3. This is just a few verses , the verses that olam means forever or eternal are there but they are not even the majority from what I could tell.

 

[HSong]

Amazing the lengths humans will go to to rescue another human, even against their will

Yes, humans are made in God's image. Thus, if humans are willing to go to such extremes to rescue, just another human, how much farther will the Lord go to rescue everyone? To save that last sheep?

1 John 2:2: "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

 

[HSong]

I will give a few verses that show olam does not have to be foreve

Yes the Hebrew word "olam", which then went to the Greek word "aion"

Similar to how the false belief of ECT is taken from Greek Mythology, the realm of Hades

Hades - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The false belief of aion being eternal is taken from Hellenistic Mythology, with the diety Aion

Aion (deity) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As Christians we must believe in the Bible, and avoid the myths of false religions.
1 Corinthians 15:55: "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

 

[HSong]

Here's today's daily verse too.

ISAIAH 45:22-24 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, `In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.'" (NIV)

Word for word, all ends of the Earth will be save. God will make all people turn to Him because that’s His will, for all of His creation to worship Him.

 

[public hermit]

Since I've contributed to the derail, I'll contribute a passage. This came up in my daily prayer from the Book of Common Worship

"On that day the branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and glory of the survivors of Israel. Whoever is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, once the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over its places of assembly a cloud by day and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night. Indeed, over all the glory there will be a canopy. It will serve as a pavilion, a shade by day from the heat, and a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain." Isaiah 4:2-6

That tells me the fire is a refining fire.

 

[Der Alte]

If olam means forever then why have the daily sacrifice stopped? Or should we still be doing it because God say they were olam

Does one exception make a rule? Where were the daily sacrifices made? Can they still be made there? Why or why not?

 

[Der Alte]

Since I've contributed to the derail, I'll contribute a passage. This came up in my daily prayer from the Book of Common Worship
"On that day the branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and glory of the survivors of Israel. Whoever is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem, once the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgement and by a spirit of burning. Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over its places of assembly a cloud by day and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night. Indeed, over all the glory there will be a canopy. It will serve as a pavilion, a shade by day from the heat, and a refuge and a shelter from the storm and rain." Isaiah 4:2-6
That tells me the fire is a refining fire.

You are correct for a change. It was a refining fire. God gave His people a second chance in this life but that says nothing about those who are in the grave, sheol, Ge Hinnom or wherever.

 

[Der Alte]

Here's today's daily verse too.
ISAIAH 45:22-24 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, `In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.'" (NIV)
Word for word, all ends of the Earth will be save. God will make all people turn to Him because that’s His will, for all of His creation to worship Him.

There ain't no "ends of the earth" in the grave, sheol or Gehinnom. Keep trying you might find a verse which I can't refute.

 

[public hermit]

You are correct for a change. It was a refining fire. God gave His people a second chance in this life but that says nothing about those who are in the grave, sheol, Ge Hinnom or wherever.

I'll take the little bit of credit you gave me, Der Alte, because I respect you. I'm telling you, I really like you despite how terribly wrong I believe you are.

 

[Der Alte]

Apparently, according to some, God cares more about human freedom than God does about humans. God sacrifices humans on the altar of human freedom. Idolatry.

Have you ever read about the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of Canaan and other pagan countries when God told Israel to attack those countries and kill every living thing; men, women, young, old, children, infants?

 

[Der Alte]

I'll take the little bit of credit you gave me, Der Alte, because I respect you. I'm telling you, I really like you despite how terribly wrong I believe you are.

TY!

 

[Der Alte]

It really does come down to two questions: Is God willing and is God able? I don’t think most Christians would deny either one, which means we are left with the inexplicable.

Get back to me after you have read Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23 Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26 and Romans 1:28 Amos chapter 4 and 5 are also a good read.

 

[Der Alte]

I will give a few verses that show olam does not have to be forever, Ps 143:3 , Lam 3:6 , Gen 49:26, Habakkuk 3:6, Due33:15 , Due 15:17, 1Sam 27:12, Lev 25:46, Gen 17:7, 1Kings 9:3. This is just a few verses , the verses that olam means forever or eternal are there but they are not even the majority from what I could tell.

Good on you! I spent the better of the morning reviewing every occurrence of "olam" in the O.T. I found 4 typed pages of vss. which define/describe "olam" as eternal, everlasting, etc. And I will post some of the vss. for the benefit of those who claim that "olam never means eternal," despite the fact that it is translated "eternal" in the 1950ish Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the O.T. FYI the vss. quoted are from the JPS O.T.
Here is the equiv. of one page plus one verse. I have 3 more pages.

Psalms 37:28​

(28) For the LORD loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​

Psalms 45:17​

(17) (45:18) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations; therefore shall the peoples praise thee for ever and ever.לעלם ועד​

Isaiah 51:6​

(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be for ever, and My favour shall not be abolished.​

Isaiah 55:13​

(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the LORD for a memorial, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.​

Isaiah 56:5​

(5) Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting memorial, that shall not be cut off.​

Jeremiah 23:40​

(40) and I will bring an everlasting עולם reproach upon you, and a perpetual עולם shame, which shall not be forgotten.​

Jeremiah 31:40​

(40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. olam​

Jeremiah 50:5​

(5) They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that shall not be forgotten.'​

Jeremiah 51:39​

(39) With their poison I will prepare their feast, and I will make them drunken, that they may be convulsed, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.​

Jeremiah 51:57​

(57) And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her governors and her deputies, and her mighty men; and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.​

Ezekiel 26:21​

(21) I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more; though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never עד־עולם be found again, saith the Lord GOD.'​

Ezekiel 27:36​

(36) The merchants among the peoples hiss at thee; thou art become a terror, and never shalt be any more. עד־עולם​

 

[public hermit]

Get back to me after you have read Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23 Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26 and Romans 1:28 Amos chapter 4 and 5 are also a good read.

I haven't forgotten about post #486, but we can act like that didn't happen and resume the usual.

 

[Der Alte]

Your interpretation is over-determined if you assume the opposite of aionios life is aionios perishing. He says aionios life and perishing. Nice try. We still have not determined what perishing is, but we know it's not aionios perishing.

Okay, you want a reply I will give you one. Scripture does not say that "perish" is the same thing as "eternal punishment" or that it is not, but I do know that Jesus said both. And Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. So, when we get there, you can ask Jesus yourself if they do or do not mean the same thing. OBTW I consider "perish" to be an eternal result, not an eternal action.