Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Deafsilence]

Good. Now show me where Josiah said that? It ain't in the Bible. You are the one that is not careful, choosing questionable sources because they support your assumptions/presuppositions.
Did you even bother to read the sources I posted, with links, which included archaeological evidence?
There was a trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was not Gehenna it was the next valley over the Kidron valley, Quote and link already posted above, but you ignored it.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf



​

TOPHET - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Josiah takes especial pains (II Kings xxiii. 10) to defile this despicable spot and thus to put a stop to the atrocious sacrifices of human life which had been made by at least two kings of Judah. Jeremiah's references to Tophet characterize it and at the same time specify that the punishment which threatens rebellious Judah shall so revolutionize and reverse current wrongs as to fill this valley with the corpses of those who shall be slain in the impending calamities. Tophet shall henceforth be called "the valley of slaughter" (Jer. vii. 32). After the overthrow of Jerusalem in 586 B.C., and down to New Testament times, incidental references to Tophet or Gehenna (

) indicate that it was a kind of perpetually burning rubbish-heap, where the refuse of Jerusalem was consumed.

What the Bible says about Tophet

King Josiah had defiled Tophet as part of his purge of idolatry (II Kings 23:10). He did so by overthrowing the altars and then using the place as the city dump, and the filthier the trash the better. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet.

 

[Deafsilence]

I think you are arguing with the wrong person, at the wrong time, about the wrong thing. In the post where I quoted Matt 7:14 I also quoted Matt 7:21-23, only 7 vss. later.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [day of judgement] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

So, it is evident with Matt 7:14, I took nothing out-of-context.

Yes it says Many will say it in the day of Judgement. Why is it that you don't get this yet. The Day of Judgement is to PURGE the sinners of their sins. You seem to believe God is incapable of being able to remove the sins of sinners. You do realize that Moses wanted to be blotted out of the Book of Life, if God wouldn't remove the sin of sinners?

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Exo 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

But Moses understood that the sinners would eventually be reconciled and continued in his service to the Lord. They will be blotted out until they are written back in with a new name.

 

[Deafsilence]

The correct Biblical phrase is "Eternal Punishment" NOT "torment."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also, according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous, uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Much in the same way English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

I know all about the study of Aionios and what it means. I've studied it very extensively as I used to be a believer in Eternal Torment. But I now know better.

So if you believe it means Eternal then explain how a secret is held eternally?

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Can you tell me how the secret is ever to be known if it is held secretly? And YES, that bolded section is from the word AIONIOS.

And NO, Aionios is not limited duration or unlimited duration. It doesn't speak to the end point of the duration. Let me teach you on this. Aionios is like the Horizon. Something is beyond it but you only know it as being concealed from you. Aionios speaks to a CONTINUING point. Something that is Aionios is in the current age of the context and continues into or comes forth from the adjoining age depending on how it is used.

For example:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The words Everlasting and Eternal are both AIONIOS. This is because those that are wicked will CONTINUE into the next age to receive punishment (Correction) and those that are righteous (which have the LIFE of Christ) will CONTINUE into that life in the next age.

Because people don't know this they don't see how the FOCUS is being placed on the COMING AGE when we see the term used.

 

[Deafsilence]

Perhaps you missed these words, "but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire" These are the words of John the Baptist. The Lord anointed him to prepare His way. John's words will not be removed from The Word of God, nor will they be changed by language or translations. "but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire." The Sword of The Spirit has two sides. Be Blessed.

Yes, and Jesus said to Drink His Blood and Eat His Flesh. I know how the earthly things are used to teach Spiritual things. As for the Sword, The Word of God is the Sword:

Eph_6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Understand this, that God MUST be worshipped in Spirit. So if your put earthly requirements or mandates on Worshipping God such as requiring carnal washings or observations of days or weeks, or certain foods, etc..., then you have errored.

Also an Unquenchable fire goes out when all its fuel is consumed.

 

[Deafsilence]

Again to preach that God won't save everyone is to preach that God will ultimately fail.

Also, the concept of Eternal Hell is nothing but a relocation plan. It does nothing to eradicate sinners. Ask anyone that believe in it if they believe sinners go to hell and they will say yes. So if they are eternally tormented it is just a relocation plan and the sinner is never eradicated. That is a failure. That means Hell wins. I'm glad I was purged of that falsehood long ago.

 

[Deafsilence]

Furthermore, those that believe in Eternal Torment cannot believe in Universal Righteousness. It is contradictory.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Der Alte]

***
But Moses understood that the sinners would eventually be reconciled and continued in his service to the Lord. They will be blotted out until they are written back in with a new name.

I am impressed! Centuries after the time of Moses you can read his mind and know what he understood although it is nowhere written in scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

TOPHET - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Josiah takes especial pains (II Kings xxiii. 10) to defile this despicable spot and thus to put a stop to the atrocious sacrifices of human life which had been made by at least two kings of Judah. Jeremiah's references to Tophet characterize it and at the same time specify that the punishment which threatens rebellious Judah shall so revolutionize and reverse current wrongs as to fill this valley with the corpses of those who shall be slain in the impending calamities. Tophet shall henceforth be called "the valley of slaughter" (Jer. vii. 32). After the overthrow of Jerusalem in 586 B.C., and down to New Testament times, incidental references to Tophet or Gehenna (

) indicate that it was a kind of perpetually burning rubbish-heap, where the refuse of Jerusalem was consumed.
What the Bible says about Tophet
King Josiah had defiled Tophet as part of his purge of idolatry (II Kings 23:10). He did so by overthrowing the altars and then using the place as the city dump, and the filthier the trash the better. But just as soon as Josiah died, the Jews returned to Tophet.

Please see my post previous page re: no archaeological evidence that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.

Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

 

[Der Alte]

***So if you believe it means Eternal then explain how a secret is held eternally?***

Are you really asking this question? There are more than 200 Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, In the 19th century E.V. Bullinger wrote a book by that title.
Link: Bullinger: Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (theheraldofgodsgrace.org)
.....1-2 figurative uses does NOT determine the meaning. E.g. Herod was not a fox when Jesus called him that. figurative. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" stone, figurative. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.\, figurative.
Not one verse says that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump, no, zero, none. but one verse says that Gehenna was used as a cemetery.

Jeremiah 19:11
(11) And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.​

I can prove "aionios" means "eternal" using only 3 vss, spoken by Jesus. There are 7 more vss. and 10 by Paul.
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice. "Aionios" which is an adjective cannot be legitimately translated "age" because "age" is a noun! By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” Again "aionios," which is an adjective, cannot be legitimately translated "age" because "age" is a noun! "Aionios life" means “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

 

[Der Alte]

Furthermore, those that believe in Eternal Torment cannot believe in Universal Righteousness. It is contradictory.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In both the verses the word translated "should bow" and "should confess" is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of probability/potentiality it ain't a done deal.

 

[Der Alte]

The definition of aionios from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek Lexicon one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicon currently available. Blue highlights indicate the numerous 80+ sources the scholars consulted to determine the correct translation.

αἰώνιος (ία Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; OdeSol 11:22; TestAbr A; JosAs 8:11 cod. A; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; mss. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; AcPl BMM recto 27=Ox 1602, 29; Just., A I, 8, 4 al.; B-D-F §59, 2; Mlt-H. 157), ον eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; ins, pap, LXX, En, TestSol, TestAbr A, Test12Patr; JosAs 12:12; GrBar 4:16; ApcEsdr; ApcMos 29; Ps.-Phocyl. 112; Just.; Tat. 17, 1; Ath., Mel.; standard epithet for princely, esp. imperial, power: OGI index VIII; BGU 176, 12; 303, 2; 309, 4; Sb 7517, 5 [211/12 a.d.] κύριος αἰ.; al. in pap; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).​

① pert. to a long period of time, long ago χρόνοις αἰ. long ages ago Ro 16:25; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on χρόνος αἰ. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10).​

② pert. to a period of time without beginning or end, eternal of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c θεὸν τ. αἰώνιον; IBM 894, 2 αἰ. κ. ἀθάνατος τοῦ παντὸς φύσις; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; SibOr Fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. θρόνος αἰ. 1 Cl 65:2 (cp. 1 Macc 2:57).​

③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv.[1]​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.​

​

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 33.​

​

 

[Der Alte]

* * * Also an Unquenchable fire goes out when all its fuel is consumed.

You really said this? If God wants a fire to burn eternally, He can do it! God caused a bush to burn but not be consumed and God protected the Hebrew slaves in a furnace heated 7 times hotter than normal which killed Babylonian soldiers outside the furnace.

 

[Deafsilence]

I am impressed! Centuries after the time of Moses you can read his mind and know what he understood although it is nowhere written in scripture.

It is the best conclusion. Do you know of another book that you can be blotted out of that is spoken of in the scriptures that God would have? I don't think so. But Moses ACTIONS speak words!

 

[Deafsilence]

Please see my post previous page re: no archaeological evidence that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.

Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Excavations near the Temple Mount and within the residential areas have already shown that no waste had accumulated there (Reich and Billig 2000), and thus waste must have been removed, most likely in an organized manner. Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem​

I've seen no evidence to support that it wasn't used as a trash dump. Remember the Bible describes it as an Unquenchable fire.

 

[Deafsilence]

Are you really asking this question? There are more than 200 Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, In the 19th century E.V. Bullinger wrote a book by that title.
Link: Bullinger: Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (theheraldofgodsgrace.org)
.....1-2 figurative uses does NOT determine the meaning. E.g. Herod was not a fox when Jesus called him that. figurative. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" stone, figurative. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.\, figurative.
Not one verse says that Gehenna was ever used as a trash dump, no, zero, none. but one verse says that Gehenna was used as a cemetery.

Jeremiah 19:11
(11) And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.​

I can prove "aionios" means "eternal" using only 3 vss, spoken by Jesus. There are 7 more vss. and 10 by Paul.
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which are not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion life” with “should not perish,” twice. "Aionios" which is an adjective cannot be legitimately translated "age" because "age" is a noun! By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” Again "aionios," which is an adjective, cannot be legitimately translated "age" because "age" is a noun! "Aionios life" means “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

Wow, if we were to follow your definition, we would just make up what meaning we want to when we see the word in the Bible to fit whatever message we want to deliver. I'll tell you what. I challenge you to find one use in scripture that can show that the context contradicts it's meaning as "age-enduring".

By the way, my idea of the meaning is more like Rev. E. S. Goodwin comments regarding Lennep's (famous Greek Linguist) - "It would signify a multitude of periods or times united to each other, duration indefinitely continued. Its proper force, in reference to duration, seems to be more that of uninterrupted duration than otherwise; a term of which the duration is continuous as long as it lasts, but which may be completed and finished, as age, dispensation, sæculum, in a general sense."

However, I don't believe it has to be multitude of periods but can be simply a couple ages (aions), though Goodwin may have meant the same.

A resource of scholars work - AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

I don't believe that it is a limited duration and believe my understanding of the word is superior than their undertakings.

 

[Deafsilence]

In both the verses the word translated "should bow" and "should confess" is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of probability/potentiality it ain't a done deal.

You know in the circles of some of us Greek Koine Students we have an understanding that when it comes to transliteration we don't apply modal verbs because in doing so we infer that God is not ALL Powerful.

should, would, could, etc... are modal verbs that shouldn't be used in the context of God performing an action and therefore, the transliteration of the text should exclude them.

 

[Deafsilence]

You really said this? If God wants a fire to burn eternally, He can do it! God caused a bush to burn but not be consumed and God protected the Hebrew slaves in a furnace heated 7 times hotter than normal which killed Babylonian soldiers outside the furnace.

Your missing the smoking gun here - the fire is not burning today.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Der Alte]

I've seen no evidence to support that it wasn't used as a trash dump. Remember the Bible describes it as an Unquenchable fire.

There is NO, ZERO, NONE archaeological evidence that Ge Hinnom was ever used a trash dump. The existing evidence shows that the dump was in the kidron valley.

Wow, if we were to follow your definition, we would just make up what meaning we want to when we see the word in the Bible to fit whatever message we want to deliver. I'll tell you what. I challenge you to find one use in scripture that can show that the context contradicts it's meaning as "age-enduring".
By the way, my idea of the meaning is more like Rev. E. S. Goodwin comments regarding Lennep's (famous Greek Linguist) - "It would signify a multitude of periods or times united to each other, duration indefinitely continued. Its proper force, in reference to duration, seems to be more that of uninterrupted duration than otherwise; a term of which the duration is continuous as long as it lasts, but which may be completed and finished, as age, dispensation, sæculum, in a general sense."
However, I don't believe it has to be multitude of periods but can be simply a couple ages (aions), though Goodwin may have meant the same.
A resource of scholars work - AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
I don't believe that it is a limited duration and believe my understanding of the word is superior than their undertakings.

"Aionios" is an adjective "age" is a noun. What you "believe" is not relevant. The BDAG definition I posted represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship NOT what one scholar "believed." If you want to prove BDAG wrong you must do it by disproving their 60-70 sources.
Jesus said that "aionios life" means "shall not perish" at least 3 times.

 

[Der Alte]

Your missing the smoking gun here - the fire is not burning today.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

You really don't get it do you? You find 1-2 incidents where a word e.g. "aionios" is used figuratively and you think that proves it does not mean eternal. When the bush that Moses saw was not destroyed by the fire does that prove that fire never destroys anything? Or does it prove that bushes don't burn up?
Try doing what I did review every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. and see what it proves. I'll help you out see my next post.

 

[Der Alte]

“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]