Daily Christian Universalist Verses

[Der Alte]

I don't have time to go back and read through your other posts to respond to them. Fortunately, I already know you will believe in universalism in due time.

You do err I know beyond question that Universal Reconciliation [UR] is false.
Pick one of my previous posts amigo. Put me in my place, surely you can do that. If I repeat one of my previous posts in the same thread, very likely I could get into trouble.
In the below post I quote Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus speaking, which shows conclusively that Universal Reconciliation [UR] is false. Has never been refuted.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

 

[HSong]

Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."

While Revelations is often used for end-times speculation, it still contains verses that shows that everyone will be saved. Nobody can be separated from Jesus when Jesus has the keys to death! Every man will see salvation!

 

[Deafsilence]

Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."

While Revelations is often used for end-times speculation, it still contains verses that shows that everyone will be saved. Nobody can be separated from Jesus when Jesus has the keys to death! Every man will see salvation!

Nobody can show you anything else that can destroy death but Life. And many times we see that the Holy Spirit is Life and that it is Fire. The word Fire in Greek actually is as our word Pure.

 

[Deafsilence]

You do err I know beyond question that Universal Reconciliation [UR] is false.
Pick one of my previous posts amigo. Put me in my place, surely you can do that. If I repeat one of my previous posts in the same thread, very likely I could get into trouble.
In the below post I quote Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus speaking, which shows conclusively that Universal Reconciliation [UR] is false. Has never been refuted.
Link: Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Here are those verses:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now I'm going to easily refute you and anyone else that believes that these verses mean God will fail to save everyone. You see it says "in that day". Which day? - answer: The Lord's Day, when He returns to bring Judgement. The only people that are saved are those that can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But you see, the Lord's day is NOT the end. That is the 7th Day when Jesus comes to Judge the Word and put all under His subjection to which in the 8th day He turns over the Kingdom to the Father when all has been brought UNDER subjection. At that time ALL shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

You have to understand why God chose the tribe of Levi. Anyone called now in this dispensation is being called to be members of the New Testament Judah and Levi. They will be Kings and Priests providing for the administration of the Kingdom of Heaven and being Priests over the rest of mankind to bring them under subjection. Now is the time of Repentance, what comes later is Judgement and Mercy. Those that don't repent now shall be subject o Judgement and Mercy in the time of Christ Coming and all will eventually pay for their sins or receive Mercy and forgiveness.

Nothing in the verses of Matthew 7:21-23 refute this.

 

[Der Alte]

Here are those verses:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now I'm going to easily refute you and anyone else that believes that these verses mean God will fail to save everyone. You see it says "in that day". Which day? - answer: The Lord's Day, when He returns to bring Judgement. The only people that are saved are those that can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But you see, the Lord's day is NOT the end. That is the 7th Day when Jesus comes to Judge the Word and put all under His subjection to which in the 8th day He turns over the Kingdom to the Father when all has been brought UNDER subjection. At that time ALL shall be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Total utter nonsense! You stopped making sense right after Matt 7:23.
What part of "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." do you not understand? That is cut and dried, Jesus makes no exceptions.

You have to understand why God chose the tribe of Levi. Anyone called now in this dispensation is being called to be members of the New Testament Judah and Levi. They will be Kings and Priests providing for the administration of the Kingdom of Heaven and being Priests over the rest of mankind to bring them under subjection. Now is the time of Repentance, what comes later is Judgement and Mercy. Those that don't repent now shall be subject o Judgement and Mercy in the time of Christ Coming and all will eventually pay for their sins or receive Mercy and forgiveness.

Where does Jesus ever mention any of this?
Let's look at the vss. preceding Matt 7:1-23. I do not see anything even hinting at UR.

Matthew 5:29
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

If all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, why does Jesus NEVER say that and why does He warn about being cast into hell, more than once?

Matthew 5:30
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

More warnings about being cast into hell and zero mention of universal reconciliation. [UR]

Matthew 6:15
(15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father, forgive your trespasses.​

People who do not forgive others will not be forgiven not saved!

Matthew 7:13-14
(13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.​

No mention of UR but many, not a few, go into the way of destruction.
But only a few, NOT all, go into the narrow way which leads to life.

Matthew 7:17-19
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.​

No mention of UR, every tree, false prophets vs. 15, that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire NOT saved.

Matthew 8:12
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

No mention of UR but "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness; there shall be wailing an gnashing of teeth NOT saved.

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 1:18: "I [Jesus] have the keys of Death and Hades."
While Revelations is often used for end-times speculation, it still contains verses that shows that everyone will be saved. Nobody can be separated from Jesus when Jesus has the keys to death! Every man will see salvation!

I will not hold my breath while you look for even one vs., 2 or more would be better, in Rev. which says that everyone will be saved?
I once started a conversation with a fellow passenger on an airliner, who was reading the Bible, "That's a good book I like how it ends." I have read the end of the Bible.
In the last book, last chapter is this vs.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Ten more vss. then the end, no more salvation, no UR, only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[public hermit]

Total utter nonsense!

I have to say, I love this part about you

Where does Jesus ever mention any of this?
Let's look at the vss. preceding Matt 7:1-23. I do not see anything even hinting at UR.
Matthew 5:29
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.If all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, why does Jesus NEVER say that and why does He warn about being cast into hell, more than once?
Matthew 5:30
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.More warnings about being cast into hell and zero mention of universal reconciliation. [UR]
Matthew 6:15
(15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father, forgive your trespasses.People who do not forgive others will not be forgiven not saved!
Matthew 7:13-14
(13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.No mention of UR but many, not a few, go into the way of destruction.
But only a few, NOT all, go into the narrow way which leads to life.
Matthew 7:17-19
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.No mention of UR, every tree, false prophets vs. 15, that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire NOT saved.
Matthew 8:12
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.No mention of UR but "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness; there shall be wailing an gnashing of teeth NOT saved.

This makes it look like the Gospel of Matthew is the only witness we have. Can you show me eternal punishment in 2 Peter? 2 Peter talks a lot about what happens to the wicked. When I read 2 Peter, it reads squarely in the conditional immortality camp. I could put a UR twist on it, but eternal torment would not be a warranted reading, I don't think. If you can, show me eternal punishment in 2 Peter.

 

[Der Alte]

I have to say, I love this part about you
This makes it look like the Gospel of Matthew is the only witness we have. Can you show me eternal punishment in 2 Peter? 2 Peter talks a lot about what happens to the wicked. When I read 2 Peter, it reads squarely in the conditional immortality camp. I could put a UR twist on it, but eternal torment would not be a warranted reading, I don't think. If you can, show me eternal punishment in 2 Peter.

This post is a logical fallacy,. Argument from silence. "UR must be true because Peter does not condemn it." Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Where is it written that the words of Peter, or any other NT writer, take precedence over the words of Jesus, Himself?
If the words of any writer in the Bible seem to contradict the words of Jesus, Himself, they absolutely must be interpreted to agree with the words of Jesus. Jesus, is Lord and Savior, NOT Peter or any other NT writer.

1 Peter 3:12
(12) For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1 Peter 4:17-18
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
(18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
2 Peter 1:9
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 2:1-9
(1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 2:12-21
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(13) And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
(14) Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
(15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

 

[public hermit]

This post is a logical fallacy,. Argument from silence. "UR must be true because Peter does not condemn it." Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Where is it written that the words of Peter, or any other NT writer, take precedence over the words of Jesus, Himself?
If the words of any writer in the Bible seem to contradict the words of Jesus, Himself, they absolutely must be interpreted to agree with the words of Jesus. Jesus, is Lord and Savior, NOT Peter or any other NT writer.

1 Peter 3:12
(12) For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1 Peter 4:17-18
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
(18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
2 Peter 1:9
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 2:1-9
(1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 2:12-21
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(13) And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
(14) Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
(15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

I'm waiting.

 

[public hermit]

This post is a logical fallacy,. Argument from silence. "UR must be true because Peter does not condemn it." Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
Where is it written that the words of Peter, or any other NT writer, take precedence over the words of Jesus, Himself?
If the words of any writer in the Bible seem to contradict the words of Jesus, Himself, they absolutely must be interpreted to agree with the words of Jesus. Jesus, is Lord and Savior, NOT Peter or any other NT writer.

1 Peter 3:12
(12) For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1 Peter 4:17-18
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
(18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
2 Peter 1:9
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 2:1-9
(1) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Peter 2:12-21
(12) But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
(13) And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
(14) Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
(15) Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
(16) But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
(17) These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
(18) For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.​

You need a better translation, too.

2But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep

12These people, however, are like irrational animals, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They slander what they do not understand, and when those creatures are destroyed, they also will be destroyed, 13suffering* the penalty for doing wrong

3:5-7
5They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

And 3:9 shouldn't be ignored in this context.
9The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance

Your translation wants to turn destruction into punishment. What translation is that?

 

[Der Alte]

You need a better translation, too.
***
Your translation wants to turn destruction into punishment. What translation is that?

My go to version is KJV. The only vs. I quoted with "punishment" is 2 Pet 2:9. All the versions in my Bible program ISV, KJV, NET, ASV, ESV all show punished, the word translated is "kolazo."

2 Peter 2:9
(9) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,​

 

[Deafsilence]

You need a better translation, too.

2But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers the way of truth will be maligned. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep

12These people, however, are like irrational animals, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They slander what they do not understand, and when those creatures are destroyed, they also will be destroyed, 13suffering* the penalty for doing wrong

3:5-7
5They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless.

And 3:9 shouldn't be ignored in this context.
9The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance

Your translation wants to turn destruction into punishment. What translation is that?

If God doesn't want any to perish then have FAITH in that message, that none shall. The meaning here is that perishing is just the fact that those that are perishing are those that don't repent IN THIS DISPENSATION. In other words, the NEXT AGE (Aion) or what is AIONIOS is going to be the age in which men shall pay for their sins and be subject to God's Mercy as He sees fit.

None of this means that anyone will be in endless torment. Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant. He doesn't spend endless time in torment, but to the contrary, he is subjected to punishment until ALL debt is paid.

(Mat 18:34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Notice it doesn't say endlessly pay their debt.

 

[public hermit]

My go to version is KJV. The only vs. I quoted with "punishment" is 2 Pet 2:9. All the versions in my Bible program ISV, KJV, NET, ASV, ESV all show punished, the word translated is "kolazo."

2 Peter 2:9
(9) then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,​

Yeah, I'm looking at BibleWorks. You're right with kolazo. I mean the funky way it avoids saying "destruction."

-Take 2 Peter 2:3-
"And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep." NRSV
Every other legitimate translation translates apoleia as "destruction."

Here's KJV: "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

-KJV does okay translating 2 Peter 2:12 using "perish" instead of "destroyed."

-But then you get to 3:7-
NRSV: "But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the godless." Again, all others translate apoleia as "destruction" except KJV.

KJV: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The KJV has a prejudice for the doctrine of eternal punishment and doesn't want to allow for the implications of the text. Moreover, it isn't consistent in how it translates apoleia, and it is contrary to a virtually unanimous agreement by all other credible translations. I think I might partly understand why you think everything I say is "Nonsense!" I don't think the KJV is a good source. It's a misleading translation and is probably why you can't seem to understand why I say the witnesses we have are ambiguous on this issue.

 

[Deafsilence]

Total utter nonsense! You stopped making sense right after Matt 7:23.
What part of "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." do you not understand? That is cut and dried, Jesus makes no exceptions.


Where does Jesus ever mention any of this?
Let's look at the vss. preceding Matt 7:1-23. I do not see anything even hinting at UR.

Matthew 5:29
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

If all mankind will be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, why does Jesus NEVER say that and why does He warn about being cast into hell, more than once?

Matthew 5:30
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

More warnings about being cast into hell and zero mention of universal reconciliation. [UR]

Matthew 6:15
(15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father, forgive your trespasses.​

People who do not forgive others will not be forgiven not saved!

Matthew 7:13-14
(13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.​

No mention of UR but many, not a few, go into the way of destruction.
But only a few, NOT all, go into the narrow way which leads to life.

Matthew 7:17-19
(17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.​

No mention of UR, every tree, false prophets vs. 15, that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire NOT saved.

Matthew 8:12
(12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

No mention of UR but "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness; there shall be wailing an gnashing of teeth NOT saved.

Look at you.... You preach this verse but know not what it says but represent it in a wrong way:

(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The verb is in the PRESENT tense. Look it up!

KJV:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Notice the difference? If not take Koine Greek classes. Because the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus and the verb is based on the Present tense.

Also, where the verses mentioned are to be cast into hell that is the word for Gehenna which was a place where trash was taken to be burned. In other words it where better for something to be utterly consumed than the whole body. Would anyone really disagree with this? Jesus speaks in earthly sense to teach Spiritual things. IF you believe things that Jesus says from an Earthly perspective then what your saying is that God needs an earthly compliance to worship Him Spiritually. That is a falsehood.

Again your say cast in to the fire. Fire in Greek in your verse is the same word we derive the word Pure from.

Yes, God is a Refiners Fire and will appear as Fuller's soap. What is a refiners fire? - it is fire that is used to remove the dross from a metal such that the beautiful metal is revealed from the flames. What is fuller's soap? - it is used to make a garment white? Making a Garment white means to make a person Righteous.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

I hope you got more Alte because this is too easy and too often for me to refute these SAME verses over and over and over again. I know your spirit.

 

[public hermit]

If God doesn't want any to perish then have FAITH in that message, that none shall. The meaning here is that perishing is just the fact that those that are perishing are those that don't repent IN THIS DISPENSATION. In other words, the NEXT AGE (Aion) or what is AIONIOS is going to be the age in which men shall pay for their sins and be subject to God's Mercy as He sees fit.

None of this means that anyone will be in endless torment. Look at the parable of the unforgiving servant. He doesn't spend endless time in torment, but to the contrary, he is subjected to punishment until ALL debt is paid.

(Mat 18:34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Notice it doesn't say endlessly pay their debt.

I hear what you're saying. At this moment, I'm picking my battle. It might look as if I am defending conditional immortality or some such, which I am, but only to put some doubt in my favorite defender of eternal torment. At the end of the day, I reject conditional immortality based on one principle: God does not destroy the good God has created but brings it to perfection. That is the only way I see God succeeding; anything short of that is failure.

 

[Deafsilence]

I hear what you're saying. At this moment, I'm picking my battle. It might look as if I am defending conditional immortality or some such, which I am, but only to put some doubt in my favorite defender of eternal torment. At the end of the day, I reject conditional immortality based on one principle: God does not destroy the good God has created but brings it to perfection. That is the only way I see God succeeding; anything short of that is failure.

God will Perfect EVERYTHING. That is what the blasphemers don't understand. Even Atheists don't understand that they are instruments of God's Work and that if God wanted them to believe they would.

But don't take my word for it - look at these titles of chapters from St. Augustine of Hippo:

CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)

Chapter 41 [XX.]— The Wills of Men are So Much in the Power of God, that He Can Turn Them Whithersoever It Pleases Him.

Chapter 42 [XXI]— God Does Whatsoever He Wills in the Hearts of Even Wicked Men.

Chapter 43.— God Operates on Men's Hearts to Incline Their Wills Whithersoever He Pleases.

It is a great read. I highly recommend it.

 

[Der Alte]

Look at you.... You preach this verse but know not what it says but represent it in a wrong way:
(14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The verb is in the PRESENT tense. Look it up!
KJV:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
YLT:
Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!
Notice the difference? If not take Koine Greek classes. Because the KJV is based on the Textus Receptus and the verb is based on the Present tense.
Also, where the verses mentioned are to be cast into hell that is the word for Gehenna which was a place where trash was taken to be burned. In other words it where better for something to be utterly consumed than the whole body. Would anyone really disagree with this? Jesus speaks in earthly sense to teach Spiritual things. IF you believe things that Jesus says from an Earthly perspective then what your saying is that God needs an earthly compliance to worship Him Spiritually. That is a falsehood.
Again your say cast in to the fire. Fire in Greek in your verse is the same word we derive the word Pure from.
Yes, God is a Refiners Fire and will appear as Fuller's soap. What is a refiners fire? - it is fire that is used to remove the dross from a metal such that the beautiful metal is revealed from the flames. What is fuller's soap? - it is used to make a garment white? Making a Garment white means to make a person Righteous.

OBTW I started learning to speak Greek, in Germany the year Elvis and I were stationed there. And I formally studied Greek at the graduate level 2 decades after that.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
I hope you got more Alte because this is too easy and too often for me to refute these SAME verses over and over and over again. I know your spirit.

Quoting Mal 3:3 out-of-context.

Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
Mal 3:3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the LORD.
Mal 3:4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years. ​

Note this passage was specifically for "the sons of Levi" vs. 3, and "Judah and Jerusalem" vs. 4.
You said "where the verses mentioned are to be cast into hell that is the word for Gehenna which was a place where trash was taken to be burned."
Here you are mentioning an internet rumor as if it was fact. There was a burning trash dump outside Jerusalem but it was NOT Gehenna, it was the next valley over the Kidron valley.
I would suggest you do some real research and learn some facts.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

Continued next post.​

 

[Der Alte]

There never was a burning trash dump in the valley of Gehenna, the trash dump was the next valley over, the Kidron valley. This is what real research looks like.

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
https://www.ritmeyer.com/2017/12/29/jerusalems-garbage/

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com​

 

[Der Alte]

I hear what you're saying. At this moment, I'm picking my battle. It might look as if I am defending conditional immortality or some such, which I am, but only to put some doubt in my favorite defender of eternal torment. At the end of the day, I reject conditional immortality based on one principle: God does not destroy the good God has created but brings it to perfection. That is the only way I see God succeeding; anything short of that is failure.

@Deafsilence
Do your Bibles have this passage?

Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the loincloth clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah cling to me, declares the LORD, that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory, but they would not listen.
Jeremiah 13:13-14
(13) Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will fill with drunkenness all the inhabitants of this land: the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, fathers and sons together, declares the LORD. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them.’”​

 

[HSong]

Revelation 5:13: "And I [John] heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, `To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'

This is every person on the Earth worshipping God! They are worshipping Him because He is good. He has saved everyone. Even though everyone in the world is a sinner, He loves us so much that He has chosen to save us because He is good! Nobody can stop God’s plan, God’s promise, for all our salvation.