public hermit

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Okay, you want a reply I will give you one. Scripture does not say that "perish" is the same thing as "eternal punishment" or that it is not, but I do know that Jesus said both. And Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. So, when we get there, you can ask Jesus yourself if they do or do not mean the same thing. OBTW I consider "perish" to be an eternal result, not an eternal action.

That's a fair response. I would have liked it if you admitted you bring presuppositions to the text, but I'm not going to belabor the point. Readers can draw the relevant conclusion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It really does come down to two questions: Is God willing and is God able? I don’t think most Christians would deny either one, which means we are left with the inexplicable.

So, if I differ with you on this, what does that conclusively mean about me?
 
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HSong

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Since I've contributed to the derail, I'll contribute a passage. This came up in my daily prayer from the Book of Common Worship
Lol, I'm personally completely fine with the thread getting derailed. The title's very generic anyways "Daily Christian Universalist Verses", so as long as there's any sort of Bible verse about Christ's Universal Salvation, than it's all good. A "catch-all" topic.
Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.

That tells me the fire is a refining fire.
Yes, it's like the fire that a blacksmith uses to refine the purities of metal. At a certain point, you have to take out the metal. It's like if I'm baking a loaf of bread in the oven, if I leave it in there for too long, well, I think not only will the bread not taste good, but my whole house might burn down too lol.

The Lord is the ultimate blacksmith, the master chef of baking. When the Lord makes a meal, He will cook it to it's perfect temperature.

Psalm 145:17 "The Lord is righteous in all his ways and faithful in all he does.

because I respect you
Yes, I as well respect everyone on this thread. Everyone on this thread will go to Heaven and be blessed by the Lord.
Psalm 145:8 "The Lord is gracious and full of compassion..."
 
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Der Alte

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That's a fair response. I would have liked it if you admitted you bring presuppositions to the text, but I'm not going to belabor the point. Readers can draw the relevant conclusion.
Alright, you have made an assumption about me, what incorrect presuppositions do you think I bring to the text. Examples?
Here is one presupposition I 'fess up to. The Bible we have is about as correct as man is capable of making it, with current knowledge, and for the most part is correctly translated. And I will hold that view unless/until someone can show me something is in error by credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence. And FYI that is not Tentmaker.
 
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Der Alte

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I don't know what that means. And, thank you for your honesty.
"Tentmaker" is a UR website that is often quoted as a source supporting UR beliefs.
 
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Hmm

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And I will hold that view unless/until someone can show me something is in error by credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence. And FYI that is not Tentmaker.

Say no more. Here's David Bentley Hart on the matter. As I know you're a great fan, I've left out his own thoughts to avoid any pro-DBH bias and just given what he says about the historical use of aionios:

"New Testament scholars as theologically diverse as Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright have suggested that translators might do well in many or most instances to render aiōnios as “of the age to come.”

If one consults the literary remains of Greek-speaking Jewish scholars of late antiquity one will find few instances of aiōn or aiōnios used to indicate eternal duration: for both Philo of Alexandria (an older contemporary of Jesus) and Josephus (born within a decade of the crucifixion), an “aeon” is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much as three generations. And the same is true of Christian thinkers of the early centuries.

Late in the fourth century, John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aiōnios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only till the end of the present age, he explains). Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that “hell” is not an eternal condition, and that the “aiōnios punishment” of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God.

Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aiōnios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the “Origenists,” found it necessary to substitute aiōnios with the word atelevtētos when describing the punishments of hell, since aiōnios was not decisive.

Early in the eighth century, John of Damascus delineated four meanings of aiōn, the last of which—“eternity”—is offered as not an intrinsic, but merely an imputed, connotation, presumed whenever the word is used of something (like the Age of God’s Kingdom) known to be endless; and even then, John affirms, the true eternity of God is beyond all ages.

As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the “holy fathers” of Syrian Christian tradition, stated simply as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aiōnios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless.

And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aiōnios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise. Conscious of the problems the word aiōnios presents, some Anglophone translators have in the past chosen simply to use an Anglicized version of the Greek word, “aeonian,” and thereby avoid the issue of its precise meaning altogether."
 
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public hermit

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Say no more. Here's David Bentley Hart on the matter. As I know you're a great fan, I've left out his own thoughts to avoid any pro-DBH bias and just given what he says about the historical use of aionios:

"New Testament scholars as theologically diverse as Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright have suggested that translators might do well in many or most instances to render aiōnios as “of the age to come.”

If one consults the literary remains of Greek-speaking Jewish scholars of late antiquity one will find few instances of aiōn or aiōnios used to indicate eternal duration: for both Philo of Alexandria (an older contemporary of Jesus) and Josephus (born within a decade of the crucifixion), an “aeon” is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much as three generations. And the same is true of Christian thinkers of the early centuries.

Late in the fourth century, John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aiōnios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only till the end of the present age, he explains). Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that “hell” is not an eternal condition, and that the “aiōnios punishment” of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God.

Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aiōnios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the “Origenists,” found it necessary to substitute aiōnios with the word atelevtētos when describing the punishments of hell, since aiōnios was not decisive.

Early in the eighth century, John of Damascus delineated four meanings of aiōn, the last of which—“eternity”—is offered as not an intrinsic, but merely an imputed, connotation, presumed whenever the word is used of something (like the Age of God’s Kingdom) known to be endless; and even then, John affirms, the true eternity of God is beyond all ages.

As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the “holy fathers” of Syrian Christian tradition, stated simply as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aiōnios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless.

And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aiōnios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise. Conscious of the problems the word aiōnios presents, some Anglophone translators have in the past chosen simply to use an Anglicized version of the Greek word, “aeonian,” and thereby avoid the issue of its precise meaning altogether."

Thank you. That is really helpful for me.
 
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Der Alte

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Say no more. Here's David Bentley Hart on the matter. As I know you're a great fan, I've left out his own thoughts to avoid any pro-DBH bias and just given what he says about the historical use of aionios:
"New Testament scholars as theologically diverse as Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright have suggested that translators might do well in many or most instances to render aiōnios as “of the age to come.”
If one consults the literary remains of Greek-speaking Jewish scholars of late antiquity one will find few instances of aiōn or aiōnios used to indicate eternal duration: for both Philo of Alexandria (an older contemporary of Jesus) and Josephus (born within a decade of the crucifixion), an “aeon” is still only a limited period of time, usually a single lifetime, but perhaps as much as three generations. And the same is true of Christian thinkers of the early centuries.
Late in the fourth century, John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aiōnios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only till the end of the present age, he explains). Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that “hell” is not an eternal condition, and that the “aiōnios punishment” of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God.
Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aiōnios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the “Origenists,” found it necessary to substitute aiōnios with the word atelevtētos when describing the punishments of hell, since aiōnios was not decisive.
Early in the eighth century, John of Damascus delineated four meanings of aiōn, the last of which—“eternity”—is offered as not an intrinsic, but merely an imputed, connotation, presumed whenever the word is used of something (like the Age of God’s Kingdom) known to be endless; and even then, John affirms, the true eternity of God is beyond all ages.
As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the “holy fathers” of Syrian Christian tradition, stated simply as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aiōnios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless.
And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aiōnios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise. Conscious of the problems the word aiōnios presents, some Anglophone translators have in the past chosen simply to use an Anglicized version of the Greek word, “aeonian,” and thereby avoid the issue of its precise meaning altogether."
I don't see any credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical or lexical evidence of anything. This guy said this, that guy said that, some other guy said something else. Not one single source was identified. Let me show you how it is done. And OBTW this publication cost me about $60.
Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, [Song 2:8] the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here [Joh 4:14] the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
...
(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.

[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​
Please note Origen describes "aionios zoe" John 4:14 as "never perishes", twice, "remains," "not taken away" and is not "consumed." That certainly sounds like "eternal" to me.
 
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public hermit

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So, if I differ with you on this, what does that conclusively mean about me?

I realize people disagree on this. I can hold my position and disagree with yours without making a judgment about you. I'm a fallibilist so I know I can be wrong. But I'm not going to go against my own conscience and I say I don't believe what I do believe.
 
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Hmm

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And OBTW this publication cost me about $60.

Have you still got the receipt? I ask anxiously. I'm sure they'll give you your money back if you show them DBH's quote, I say encouragingly.
 
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Der Alte

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Have you still got the receipt? I ask anxiously. I'm sure they'll give you your money back if you show them DBH's quote, I say encouragingly.
You cannot be serious. DBH does nothing but say some guys said something. No sources identified, no page, paragraphs, etc.. If you want to know something like context, ever hear of that? You would have to go through all their works and try to find one that actually says what DBH claims.
I quoted correctly, identified the source and exactly where the quote can be found. Something important seriously lacking here if you are willing to disregard a direct quote based on some vague references like the ones posted. Just did a quick check of Justin Martyr here is a quick quote from his Dialogue with Trypho a Jew

Chap. CXVII But these filthy garments, which have been put by you on all who have become Christians by the name of Jesus, God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire.
That is two direct quotes vs. "this guy said this, that guy said that and some other guy said something else."
 
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Der Alte

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Say no more. Here's David Bentley Hart on the matter. As I know you're a great fan, I've left out his own thoughts to avoid any pro-DBH bias and just given what he says about the historical use of aionios:
"New Testament scholars as theologically diverse as Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright have suggested that translators might do well in many or most instances to render aiōnios as “of the age to come.”***
A second shot at this post. I just noticed this comment by the "expert," David Bently Hart. Do you know why it is total nonsense? Apparently, he does not know the difference between an adjective and a noun.
"Aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. An adjective cannot be translated as a noun! And it takes 5 words to translate one adjective?
 
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Hmm

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A second shot at this post.

But you are shooting blanks so he doesn't need to be defended. The level of scholarship shown in the extract I quoted speaks for itself.
 
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Der Alte

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But you are shooting blanks so he doesn't need to be defended. The level of scholarship shown in the extract I quoted speaks for itself.
Balderdash! There ain't no scholarship <period>in what you quoted. Scholarship is something you could submit to a professor and expect a decent grade. I submitted a paper in grad school and quoted an encyclopedia one time. The prof. bled all over my paper with his red pen saying, "Do you call this a scholarly source?" I said to myself, "Self not any more I don't."
"New Testament scholars as theologically diverse as Marcus Borg and N. T. Wright have suggested that translators might do well in many or most instances to render aiōnios as “of the age to come." Where, when and in what context did these guys say this. How can I verify it? We are just supposed to believe it because some guy named David Bentley Hart said it? I just directly quoted 2 ECF who defined "aionios life" as "incorruptible, immortal," and "never perishes", "remains," "not taken away" and is not "consumed." That was scholarship, and you blew them off. I can quote more.
 
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I realize people disagree on this. I can hold my position and disagree with yours without making a judgment about you. I'm a fallibilist so I know I can be wrong. But I'm not going to go against my own conscience and I say I don't believe what I do believe.

That's alright. I wouldn't want you to. :cool:
 
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Of course. Don't you? How would I know who I'm talking to if I don't address myself?
I did. I said to myself "Self not any more I don't." It's a family thing. My father did that.
 
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