Cultural Disharmony

[Nathan Poe]

Your concept is the same concept that the pharisees had when they brought the woman to Jesus when she was taken in adultery.

And your response is a lot poorer than Jesus' was.

The pharisees could not understand that God hates sin and that sin deserves death, but because of grace, God offers forgiveness for those that will repent.

Unless the sin involves homosexuality -- Your God clearly offers no grace for that one.

Dodge the question all you want, clirus -- the simple fact remains that because you want our government to permit actions which the Bible clearly prohibits, you are in violation of God's Law as stated in the Bible.

 

[TheReasoner]

As Christians we are taught to not let trivial things to lead to evil/sin. If you slap me on the cheek, as a Christian, I should turn the other cheek instead of blowing your head off, which would be my sinful nature.

Trivial? I don't think Paul's persecuting the church was trivial. Nor was it trivial what the romans did when they nailed Jesus to the cross. He still said "Father, forgive them".
It is not trivial when someone persecutes or hates you. But the bible still says to do good to them, and to pray for them.

I have never advocated execution except where there was a jury trial or a declaration of war by congress. For all other things I have advocated Nourishing of good and Tolerance/Rebuking of evil.

You know Clirus, you're saying almost exactly what a group of devil worshippers I witnessed to a decade ago said. If it is decided by law that someone should die, they should die. So they said. And they stood by it, like you do.

Rebuking of evil does not mean to fight it with evil. We are supposed to be set apart. Love where others hate. THAT is the core of our belief. Love, faith, mercy, compassion, prayer and hope are our weapons. No evil shall stand against us, and come the last day even the weeds that grow up in among us and poison us with their talk and actions of hatred, vengeance and bloodshed shall be tossed on the fire. Are you such a weed, Clirus? That you pursue violent vengeance and extermination of groups with whom you disagree? Who are you, that you cast stones wherever you look? Did not Jesus say that only He who is without sin should cast the first stone? Did He not forgive adulterers and all kinds of sinners? Did He not even forgive the man who was crucified next to Him? Why, then, do you not seek the same level of love and forgiveness, but instead advocate total annihilation - by the sword - of those whose sins YOU judge too large to let them live? You say you go by the bible, but I wonder if you have forgotten the new covenant. Under the old one, even picking up sticks on the sabbath would have caused a death penalty. Or talking back to your father (or mother). Yet with Jesus we have freedom and forgiveness. And that is what we should preach. Not this violence and retaliation. That SHOULD be part of our past as non-christians. Not something to wave around like a banner in Jesus' name.

I believe in a God of both Love and Righteousness.

Then leave the judgement to Him. For He says "Vengeance is mine" and "I will repay"

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Then leave the judgement to Him. For He says "Vengeance is mine" and "I will repay"

Precisely. It seems rather arrogant to presume that we can or should pre-empt God's almighty judgment and substitute it with our own judgment, prone to dubiousness and error. God perceives all, and therefore only God can judge with true justice the content of our hearts.

 

[clirus]

faith guardian quote

It is not trivial when someone persecutes or hates you. But the bible still says to do good to them, and to pray for them.

Response

I can live with persecution and hate, even when someone suggests I am a devil worshipper, a weed, or that I violate God's Law as stated in the Bible.

Persecution and hate are spiritual in nature. It is when the physical results of planes being used to kill, beheadings, adultery, and homosexual activity occur that there is a need for a physical response.

Persecution and hate should be rebuked, but there needs to be a physical response when a physical act of evil occurs.

faith guardian quote

You know Clirus, you're saying almost exactly what a group of devil worshippers I witnessed to a decade ago said. If it is decided by law that someone should die, they should die. So they said. And they stood by it, like you do.

Rebuking of evil does not mean to fight it with evil. We are supposed to be set apart. Love where others hate. THAT is the core of our belief. Love, faith, mercy, compassion, prayer and hope are our weapons. No evil shall stand against us, and come the last day even the weeds that grow up in among us and poison us with their talk and actions of hatred, vengeance and bloodshed shall be tossed on the fire. Are you such a weed, Clirus? That you pursue violent vengeance and extermination of groups with whom you disagree? Who are you, that you cast stones wherever you look? Did not Jesus say that only He who is without sin should cast the first stone? Did He not forgive adulterers and all kinds of sinners? Did He not even forgive the man who was crucified next to Him? Why, then, do you not seek the same level of love and forgiveness, but instead advocate total annihilation - by the sword - of those whose sins YOU judge too large to let them live? You say you go by the bible, but I wonder if you have forgotten the new covenant. Under the old one, even picking up sticks on the sabbath would have caused a death penalty. Or talking back to your father (or mother). Yet with Jesus we have freedom and forgiveness. And that is what we should preach. Not this violence and retaliation. That SHOULD be part of our past as non-christians. Not something to wave around like a banner in Jesus' name.

Then leave the judgement to Him. For He says "Vengeance is mine" and "I will repay"

Response

God is in Heaven and Christians are on the Earth.

A lot of people think God is just going to reach down and fix everything if they and other Christians would live a perfect/sin free life. But then they do not live sin free lives so they do not blame God when God does not fix things.

I believe the way God intends to "repay" is by providing the Bible to Christians on Earth so that Christians know good and evil. I believe God expects Christians on Earth to take actions on earth to rebuke or eliminate evil in a manner consistent with the Bible.

Christians will never be perfect so I totally expect Christians will make mistakes such as people being wrongly executed, civilians killed, needy neglected, etc., but we are seeing the disastrous effects of Christians on earth doing nothing and expecting God to do everything.

A lot of Christians take great pride in their charity work. Why not let God take care of that also?

I believe God is both Love and Righteousness and I believe God intends Christians to also be both Love and Righteousness.

You say there is a new covenant, but isn't the new covenant the same as the Ten Commandments but written on the heart of man instead of stone tablets.

I commend you for your love and good works to the needy, but I believe there needs to be good works against evil. I know it is scary to possible make a mistake, but that should make Christians appreciate God and pray for wisdom even more.

This gets back to the question of "will good overcome evil?" My answer is "Evil will flourish when good men do nothing". There is great evil in the world because good men are doing nothing to rebuke or eradicate evil. The judicial system of America is even legalizing evil because good men refuse to elect Christians to government positions. The death penalty is being eliminated and any nation that tries to eliminate evil by war is considered to be worse than the original evil that started the war.

Coexistence of Love and Righteousness

It may not be possible for Love and Righteousness to coexist except as God. God made both man and female. I believe women are more representative of Love and men are more representative of Righteousness. I believe Liberal Christians favor Love and Conservative Christians favor Righteousness.

Both Liberal Christians and Conservative Christians need to be more tolerant of each other.

Liberal Christians need to realize that a lot of international organizations like the UN, international red cross, amnesty international, etc., take a very pious position, but they can all be summed up in one word, "Observers". The Geneva Convention is an international document of pious positions that do more harm than good.

The UN and other international organizations are observers. They watch a rape, but never get their hands dirty by doing anything to stop the rape. They keep statistics on rape and pass pious legislation that rape is horrible and should be outlawed, but then they watch the rapes occur.

The UN is always there to offer food, water and assistance to both the raper and the rape victim. This only creates a situation where another rape is inevitable.

Many charity organization save people from famine, but then only assure the next famine will involve more people. Too much communal charity is worthless because the heart of the person receiving the charity is not changed. It may be that a family has to starve to death because they refuse to make the statement, "as for my house, we will follow the Lord"

I believe Conservative Christians are aware of the potential mistakes of righteousness but are unfairly criticized for their good works to bring a permanent resolution to problems instead of a temporary resolution.

In the three levels of action with an issue, the Liberal Christian would favor the tolerance of evil, and the Conservative Christian would favor the rebuking and destruction of evil.

I believe Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians need to work together for God's glory.

 

[Gishin]

And us American atheists? How about us Atheists in the American military?

 

[Nathan Poe]

faith guardian quote

It is not trivial when someone persecutes or hates you. But the bible still says to do good to them, and to pray for them.

Response

I can live with persecution and hate, even when someone suggests I am a devil worshipper, a weed, or that I violate God's Law as stated in the Bible.

Persecution and hate are spiritual in nature. It is when the physical results of planes being used to kill, beheadings, adultery, and homosexual activity occur that there is a need for a physical response.

But not a response from you -- it certainly wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for someone in violation of God's Law as stated in the Bible to punish other people for being in violation of God's Law as stated in the Bible.

Physician, heal thyself.

I believe the way God intends to "repay" is by providing the Bible to Christians on Earth so that Christians know good and evil. I believe God expects Christians on Earth to take actions on earth to rebuke or eliminate evil in a manner consistent with the Bible.

And with the exception of outlawing homosexuality and persecuting non-Christians, you've shown your unwillingness to do this -- selectively following the Bible is worse than not following it at all.

(P.S. "Knowing Good and Evil" -- isn't that what got Adam and Eve booted out of Eden in the first place?)

I believe God is both Love and Righteousness and I believe God intends Christians to also be both Love and Righteousness.

You say there is a new covenant, but isn't the new covenant the same as the Ten Commandments but written on the heart of man instead of stone tablets.

No, it is not -- Jesus' commandment was to love one another as he loved us.

 

[TheReasoner]

I can live with persecution and hate, even when someone suggests I am a devil worshipper, a weed, or that I violate God's Law as stated in the Bible.

I didn't say that you were. I just pointed out that I see a very strong resemblance in the creed I saw among the devil worshippers I worked with a decade ago and in your own words. I do not think you are one, but I do think you are sorely mistaken on many issues. And sometimes the best way to get someone to reflect on their own position is to tell them a littlebit about it from a new angle.

Persecution and hate are spiritual in nature. It is when the physical results of planes being used to kill, beheadings, adultery, and homosexual activity occur that there is a need for a physical response.

Persecution and hate should be rebuked, but there needs to be a physical response when a physical act of evil occurs.

And why? The bible prescribes the death penalty for more things than those you know.

God is in Heaven and Christians are on the Earth.

A lot of people think God is just going to reach down and fix everything if they and other Christians would live a perfect/sin free life. But then they do not live sin free lives so they do not blame God when God does not fix things.

That's not what I did though. I merely stated that there are certain rules He has set down. Rules I do not believe you really want to follow. Well, who does? But it's what we are called to do. Hard though it may be.
You know, God's wrath will pour down on whom He sees fit on judgement day. I do not want to add to that suffering. I would love for them to escape it. And killing them will not help anyone closer to the love of God. It'll seal their fate, that's all.

I believe the way God intends to "repay" is by providing the Bible to Christians on Earth so that Christians know good and evil. I believe God expects Christians on Earth to take actions on earth to rebuke or eliminate evil in a manner consistent with the Bible.

Which is to repay hatred with love. If someone hits you, do not hit back. If someone steals from you, give more than he asks for. If someone wants you dead, pray for him and do good onto him.

Christians will never be perfect so I totally expect Christians will make mistakes such as people being wrongly executed, civilians killed, needy neglected, etc., but we are seeing the disastrous effects of Christians on earth doing nothing and expecting God to do everything.

Yes, I agree. T your words, but probably not what you mean by them. I want to abide by laws. I want to see people saved. I want to see poverty eradicated.

A lot of Christians take great pride in their charity work. Why not let God take care of that also?

We were not put here to fight and spread violence and hatred. We were put here to spread peace and love.

I believe God is both Love and Righteousness and I believe God intends Christians to also be both Love and Righteousness.

I agree. But I don't think what you advocate is righteousness. You can check the statistics yourself, the US, where your way is the closest to being met, is infested with crime and problems we do not have. When you kill someone for murder in the US, we are more prone to looking into how it happened, why it happened and how we can keep other people from getting in the same position. It turns out our modern lifestyle has a negative influence on our psyche and can in some cases help cause violent behavior. Want to increase peace? Have people eat healthier diets. That's one real and fact-based way to combat crime. In the US your consumption and capitalistic focus has increased the consumption of fast food which has a documented effect on the human psyche, at times causing violent behavior.

So why do I mention this? Simpl. Killing someone for killing someone else may be a gross injustice. Because the murderer may have been sick at the time of the killing. And - through study of murderers - sick and sane - we may determine what causes murders and kill no tthe murderers but the cause of the murders in the first place. One such root to attack is the current approach to nutrition. Another (I believe) is the lack of physical exercise.

You say there is a new covenant, but isn't the new covenant the same as the Ten Commandments but written on the heart of man instead of stone tablets.

Yes, the law is still valid. But the punishment is not. Sin is still sin, but Jesus took the punishment on Himself. And Jesus told us to love every other human being as He loved us. That means that we should be ready to die for the most decrepit and sinful human being on the face of the earth. A pedophile murderer/rapist who has also committed genocide is still someone we should be ready to die for. If we take Jesus' words directly.

I commend you for your love and good works to the needy, but I believe there needs to be good works against evil. I know it is scary to possible make a mistake, but that should make Christians appreciate God and pray for wisdom even more.

I agree that good work against evil needs to be done, and I commend you for your will and desire to combat evil That is sorely(!!!) needed these days. Alas I believe your approach is very wrong. Killing the fathers of unborn children for fornication will not solve the problem of who will raise the child. It will not help the child seek God when he/she is born. It will not do any good. It is better - if harder - to enforce strong and good morals through example and good works rather than through whips and electric chairs.

This gets back to the question of "will good overcome evil?" My answer is "Evil will flourish when good men do nothing". There is great evil in the world because good men are doing nothing to rebuke or eradicate evil. The judicial system of America is even legalizing evil because good men refuse to elect Christians to government positions. The death penalty is being eliminated and any nation that tries to eliminate evil by war is considered to be worse than the original evil that started the war.

Your nation started the war in both Afghanistan and Iraq. And yes, I would go to war and fight if against an aggressor. Once Iraq was invaded I contemplated joining the army there to do my bit. Even though I opposed the war. Why? They need someone - as many as possible - to uphold the law and keep structure there now that you blew it away.
But I will not be the aggressor.

Coexistence of Love and Righteousness

It may not be possible for Love and Righteousness to coexist except as God. God made both man and female. I believe women are more representative of Love and men are more representative of Righteousness. I believe Liberal Christians favor Love and Conservative Christians favor Righteousness.

I hope you are right. My impression of the group Americans call conservatives is that they are more prone to advocate vengeance, exclusion and greed than righteousness though. Sorry, but it's the conservatives who wanted an illegal war against an enemy of terrorism. That's not righteousness. Thankfully though, conservatives can be a lot of different things. Just as liberals can be. Maybe you are right.

Both Liberal Christians and Conservative Christians need to be more tolerant of each other.

I can definitely agree to that point.

Liberal Christians need to realize that a lot of international organizations like the UN, international red cross, amnesty international, etc., take a very pious position, but they can all be summed up in one word, "Observers". The Geneva Convention is an international document of pious positions that do more harm than good

Why do you think so? Do you want landmines in the US where your kids would be kille for decades after the end of a war? Would you want your people tortured by your enemy, and the torture OKed by the international community?

You may need to read up on what the UN has accomplished. Yes, it may seem weak and fragile. But it needs to be an objective third party with the trust from all sides in a conflict in order to work properly. If it becomes partial prematurely, irrepearable harm is done.

The UN and other international organizations are observers. They watch a rape, but never get their hands dirty by doing anything to stop the rape. They keep statistics on rape and pass pious legislation that rape is horrible and should be outlawed, but then they watch the rapes occur.

The UN is always there to offer food, water and assistance to both the raper and the rape victim. This only creates a situation where another rape is inevitable.

A truth with modification. And I can see why it would anger someone. But if the UN is to intervene without any delay in situations such as this their mandate must be expanded, and that might do more harm than good. Albeit, I fully agree that if the UN could be a police force capable of stopping any such rape, kidnapping or torture, ready and able to go into any capital and arrest any leader with his or her entourage provided they had broken international law then that would be a good thing. Provided they would not be in a position which could then be abused by powerful and corrupt individuals. Which of course could happen. Besides, G.W. Bush and his croneys would have been arrested long ago if such a force existed. And the result may have been fighting on the streets in Washington, and loads of internal strife in the US. As I am no doubt sure you'd agree, arresting Bush might cause quite a ruckus in the US had it happened when he declared war on Iraq. But a capable and powerful police force would have done so anyway. Right?

Many charity organization save people from famine, but then only assure the next famine will involve more people. Too much communal charity is worthless because the heart of the person receiving the charity is not changed. It may be that a family has to starve to death because they refuse to make the statement, "as for my house, we will follow the Lord"

What about microloans? What about missions agencies work to start businesses, remove malaria, ensure an education and such. That's a form of charity too.

I believe Conservative Christians are aware of the potential mistakes of righteousness but are unfairly criticized for their good works to bring a permanent resolution to problems instead of a temporary resolution.

Can you give any examples please?

In the three levels of action with an issue, the Liberal Christian would favor the tolerance of evil, and the Conservative Christian would favor the rebuking and destruction of evil.

That may be an accurate assessment.

I believe Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians need to work together for God's glory.

Amen. We are all one big family. Disagreements and all.

BUT - it must be crystal clear that love is not a liberal or a conservative thing. God did not call some of us to love our neighbors and some of us to punish them. He called us ALL to love our neighbors. His call does not exclude anyone.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

faith guardian quote

It is not trivial when someone persecutes or hates you. But the bible still says to do good to them, and to pray for them.

Response

I can live with persecution and hate, even when someone suggests I am a devil worshipper, a weed, or that I violate God's Law as stated in the Bible.

Persecution and hate are spiritual in nature. It is when the physical results of planes being used to kill, beheadings, adultery, and homosexual activity occur that there is a need for a physical response.

Persecution and hate should be rebuked, but there needs to be a physical response when a physical act of evil occurs.

faith guardian quote

You know Clirus, you're saying almost exactly what a group of devil worshippers I witnessed to a decade ago said. If it is decided by law that someone should die, they should die. So they said. And they stood by it, like you do.

Rebuking of evil does not mean to fight it with evil. We are supposed to be set apart. Love where others hate. THAT is the core of our belief. Love, faith, mercy, compassion, prayer and hope are our weapons. No evil shall stand against us, and come the last day even the weeds that grow up in among us and poison us with their talk and actions of hatred, vengeance and bloodshed shall be tossed on the fire. Are you such a weed, Clirus? That you pursue violent vengeance and extermination of groups with whom you disagree? Who are you, that you cast stones wherever you look? Did not Jesus say that only He who is without sin should cast the first stone? Did He not forgive adulterers and all kinds of sinners? Did He not even forgive the man who was crucified next to Him? Why, then, do you not seek the same level of love and forgiveness, but instead advocate total annihilation - by the sword - of those whose sins YOU judge too large to let them live? You say you go by the bible, but I wonder if you have forgotten the new covenant. Under the old one, even picking up sticks on the sabbath would have caused a death penalty. Or talking back to your father (or mother). Yet with Jesus we have freedom and forgiveness. And that is what we should preach. Not this violence and retaliation. That SHOULD be part of our past as non-christians. Not something to wave around like a banner in Jesus' name.

Then leave the judgement to Him. For He says "Vengeance is mine" and "I will repay"

Response

God is in Heaven and Christians are on the Earth.

A lot of people think God is just going to reach down and fix everything if they and other Christians would live a perfect/sin free life. But then they do not live sin free lives so they do not blame God when God does not fix things.

I believe the way God intends to "repay" is by providing the Bible to Christians on Earth so that Christians know good and evil. I believe God expects Christians on Earth to take actions on earth to rebuke or eliminate evil in a manner consistent with the Bible.

Christians will never be perfect so I totally expect Christians will make mistakes such as people being wrongly executed, civilians killed, needy neglected, etc., but we are seeing the disastrous effects of Christians on earth doing nothing and expecting God to do everything.

A lot of Christians take great pride in their charity work. Why not let God take care of that also?

I believe God is both Love and Righteousness and I believe God intends Christians to also be both Love and Righteousness.

You say there is a new covenant, but isn't the new covenant the same as the Ten Commandments but written on the heart of man instead of stone tablets.

I commend you for your love and good works to the needy, but I believe there needs to be good works against evil. I know it is scary to possible make a mistake, but that should make Christians appreciate God and pray for wisdom even more.

This gets back to the question of "will good overcome evil?" My answer is "Evil will flourish when good men do nothing". There is great evil in the world because good men are doing nothing to rebuke or eradicate evil. The judicial system of America is even legalizing evil because good men refuse to elect Christians to government positions. The death penalty is being eliminated and any nation that tries to eliminate evil by war is considered to be worse than the original evil that started the war.

Coexistence of Love and Righteousness

It may not be possible for Love and Righteousness to coexist except as God. God made both man and female. I believe women are more representative of Love and men are more representative of Righteousness. I believe Liberal Christians favor Love and Conservative Christians favor Righteousness.

Both Liberal Christians and Conservative Christians need to be more tolerant of each other.

Liberal Christians need to realize that a lot of international organizations like the UN, international red cross, amnesty international, etc., take a very pious position, but they can all be summed up in one word, "Observers". The Geneva Convention is an international document of pious positions that do more harm than good.

The UN and other international organizations are observers. They watch a rape, but never get their hands dirty by doing anything to stop the rape. They keep statistics on rape and pass pious legislation that rape is horrible and should be outlawed, but then they watch the rapes occur.

The UN is always there to offer food, water and assistance to both the raper and the rape victim. This only creates a situation where another rape is inevitable.

Many charity organization save people from famine, but then only assure the next famine will involve more people. Too much communal charity is worthless because the heart of the person receiving the charity is not changed. It may be that a family has to starve to death because they refuse to make the statement, "as for my house, we will follow the Lord"

I believe Conservative Christians are aware of the potential mistakes of righteousness but are unfairly criticized for their good works to bring a permanent resolution to problems instead of a temporary resolution.

In the three levels of action with an issue, the Liberal Christian would favor the tolerance of evil, and the Conservative Christian would favor the rebuking and destruction of evil.

I believe Conservative Christians and Liberal Christians need to work together for God's glory.

You are categorizing Christians into divisions against the advice of the Bible: "A house divided cannot stand."

 

[clirus]

faith guardian quote

BUT - it must be crystal clear that love is not a liberal or a conservative thing. God did not call some of us to love our neighbors and some of us to punish them. He called us ALL to love our neighbors. His call does not exclude anyone.

Love is not a liberal or a conservative thing, but love is a good and evil thing.

II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

faith guardian quote

So why do I mention this? Simpl. Killing someone for killing someone else may be a gross injustice. Because the murderer may have been sick at the time of the killing. And - through study of murderers - sick and sane - we may determine what causes murders and kill no tthe murderers but the cause of the murders in the first place. One such root to attack is the current approach to nutrition. Another (I believe) is the lack of physical exercise.

Response

Too much time is spent trying to justify evil, which allows evil to flourish.

The time needs to be spent determining what is good and what is evil.

There will always be mistakes made since humans are imperfect, but the greater mistake is to allow evil to flourish.

 

[clirus]

George Bush - A Good Christian Man

I really do not care what you say about me, but I take offense when you unjustly criticize a good Christian man like George Bush.

At first I was not interested in addressing the criticism of Bush, in favor of "agreeing to disagree", but I keep hearing the same unjust criticism over and over again.

I am going to draw a lot of parallels between George Bush and Job. In both cases, the problems were not their fault and they both faced unjust criticism. Like Job, George Bush refused to curse God in order to win the acceptance of the unjust critics.

Bush faced three major problems that were not produced by Bush nor Republicans.

New Orleans

New Orleans was built under sea level and everyone knew the levees were not adequate for a Category 5 hurricane. No one did anything, because it really was unrealistic to do anything. Clinton has a budget surplus, but he would not spend anything on the levees.

You can fault Bush for inadequate preparation, but all plans are for past events, not the future events. In the Clinton Administration, 1000 people were killed in Chicago due to a heat wave. Where was Clinton's preparation.

There was a major ice storm in Kentucky recently and the Obama Administration was not prepared.

War on Terror

On 9/11 America was attacked by Islamic Terrorists. The Islamic Terrorists were known by the Clinton Administration but the Islamic Terrorists were allowed to flourish by the appeasement policy of the democrats and the Clinton Administration.

You can fault Bush for inadequate preparation and execution of the Iraq War, but I make three points relative to the Iraq War.

1) The war was authorized by congress, 2) congress, under both democratic and republican control, passed every funding authorization bill that Bush submitted, and 3) Obama is continuing the Bush policies in the Middle East, however he is changing the titles.

Although the Atheistic Liberal News Media, the democrats and Obama know that Bush was right, they were willing to commit treason by criticizing Bush so that they could get control of the government.

Many accuse Bush of war crimes. I divide these people into Pacificist and Political Enemies. I just discussed the Political Enemies (Atheistic Liberal News Media and democrats).

Pacificist are people that do not understand the necessity of war nor what it takes to win a war, thus they end up starting wars. Clinton was afraid of the Pacificist of the democratic party so he pursued a policy of appeasement that allowed the Islamic Terrorists to grow till they attacked America and several European cities.

Obama will ultimately do a cut and run in the Middle East even though Iran is developing a nuclear capability because of the Pacificist influence in the democratic party. Pacificist and Environmentalists usually have a common cause and supporters.

Pacifist/UN Observers
There are a lot of international organizations like the UN, international red cross, amnesty international, etc., that take a very pious position, but I think that they can all be summed up in one word, "Observers". The Geneva Convention is an international document of pious positions that do more harm than good.

The UN and other international organizations are observers. They watch a rape, but never get their hands dirty by doing anything to stop the rape. They keep statistics on rape and pass pious legislation that rape is horrible and should be outlawed, but then they watch the rapes occur.
The UN is always there to offer food, water and assistance to both the raper and the rape victim. This only creates a situation where another rape is inevitable. The UN and other international organizations never make a mistake because they never do anything.

Economic Disaster of 2008

The Community Reinvestment Act was the trigger for the Economic Disaster of 2008. There were a lot of people that assumed that housing prices would always rise, and who unwisely had too much credit risk or leveraging, but nothing would have happened if the sub prime mortgages created by the CRA had not began to default.

The CRA was a socialistic program created by democrats in an attempt to produce black equality. Obama is now developing even more government programs and policies that will further implement the Atheistic Lifestyle and destroy the Christian Lifestyle that made America great.

You can fault Bush for not doing enough to stop the sub prime loan practices, but there is much evidence that was attempted, but fought viciously by democrats in congress.

Summary

Many say that Bush did nothing, and that everything Bush did was wrong. I believe Bush attempted many things, but was faced by very well organized opposition from the Atheistic Liberal News Media and democrats for political purposes. Even physical conservatives hated Bush because he was a compassionate conservative.

I believe George Bush and Republicans were a victim of the Cultural War.

There is a cultural war in America between Christians and Atheists. This war is being fought on the battlefield of politics. The battles are in the voting booth. The prize in the cultural war is the hearts, minds and souls of the children. The Atheistic liberal news media greatly influences both domestic and foreign policy by constantly reporting only bad news about Christians, Conservatives and Republicans and only good news about atheists, liberals and democrats. The agenda of the Atheistic liberal news media is to promote evolution, extreme environmentalism, socialism, feminism, inappropriate contentography, abortion, adultery, homosexuality and the Atheistic Lifestyle by having democrats in control of government.

I believe Americans and the world is going to come to an amazing conclusion during the Obama Administration.

When compared to perfection, Republicans did not look good, but when compared to democrats, Republicans look brilliant. Without the propaganda support of the Atheistic Liberal News Media the democrats would look ridicules.

I hope the above has addressed all the unjust criticism that has been stated. At least I am satisfied I have defended a good Christian man.

 

[TheReasoner]

faith guardian quote

BUT - it must be crystal clear that love is not a liberal or a conservative thing. God did not call some of us to love our neighbors and some of us to punish them. He called us ALL to love our neighbors. His call does not exclude anyone.

Love is not a liberal or a conservative thing, but love is a good and evil thing.

II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Do not be yoked together with... That means basically don't partner up or don't be partners with... It does not mean we should not tell them about Jesus, or show them the love He showed to the outcasts and rejects of His time. Even be their friends. It just means we should not partner up with them and follow them in their ways.
Don't forget that Jesus befriended non-believers.

In fact, the bible is VERY clear about what happens to those who say they are Christians but do not act out the love Jesus commanded us to act out.
Matthew 25:31-46 states:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



So THIS is what righteousness is. Love. NOt exclusion, like you and so many "conservatives" argue. Not acceptance of sinful acts either, sin is sin. But rather helping, loving, caring for and lifting up of those in society who is less fortunate than us. These verses are abundantly clear Clirus, both on what righteousness is (and it doesn't have anything to do with spilling blood) and what happens to those who are not righteous, but selfish and unloving.

Like I said, love is not optional. It is what Christianity is, love: 1. Corinthians 13:13: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Too much time is spent trying to justify evil, which allows evil to flourish.

The time needs to be spent determining what is good and what is evil.

There will always be mistakes made since humans are imperfect, but the greater mistake is to allow evil to flourish.

Explaining how stuff happens is not the same as justifying it Clirus. If I explain to you how a gun works, will I excuse all the murders where a gun was used?

I just mentioned two factors that can help make someone's psyche unstable. There are many, many more. But the fact is - if we deal with these factors we can reduce the number of crimes committed. The number of lives lost. Do you want vengeance so bad you refuse to work to reduce the number of murders prophylactically?

 

[Nathan Poe]

George Bush - A Good Christian Man

I really do not care what you say about me, but I take offense

We really do not care what you take offense at.

when you unjustly criticize a good Christian man like George Bush.

How about when we justly criticize him?

I believe George Bush and Republicans were a victim of the Cultural War.

Then Bush and Republicans have nobody but themselves to blame for not doing whatever it took to win.

Isn't that how one wins wars, clirus?

 

[Revelation1217]

Instead of trying to find someone to blame, I wish more people would take responsibility and would try to do what they can to fix things.

 

[TheReasoner]

Instead of trying to find someone to blame, I wish more people would take responsibility and would try to do what they can to fix things.

An important step towards change is talking about that change. If no-one talks about it, it will not happen. But of course, you're right in that we need to do what we can to change things. And honestly, while it may sound like blaming someone to you, I think one important step towards fixing things is keeping our leaders responsible. Which would include sending Bush on trial.

What Clirus does in his post, excusing Bush's actions by pointing to similar actions performed by other people is a classic example of a logical fallacy (I know I loooove to point those out). Just because someone else has done similar things does not make it OK. Bush lied about Iraq. He lied about the levees. He broke international laws which are also signed and ratified in the US making them domestic US laws as well. All of which means he should be tried for them. Whether he saves baby seals as a hobby and does charity work on the side is completely irrelevant. As is what others have done before him. I would love to hear someone say "But, why is it wrong that Hitler killed all those people? Stalin did so. So did Mao. And not to mention Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great and many more! Surely Hitler was just a good guy!" See, the argument is fallacious and should not have been made. Clirus: Address the issue. Personal qualities and what other people have done are utterly irrelevant.

 

[clirus]

Revelation1217 quote

Instead of trying to find someone to blame, I wish more people would take responsibility and would try to do what they can to fix things.

Response

A noble intention, but very difficult to implement.

Fixing things requires both an understanding of the problem and an agreement on a fix.

Right now Republican would say the Economic Problem was mostly the CRA socialistic program that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to restore capitalism and get out of socialistic programs.

Right now the democrats would say the Economic Problem was mostly greedy capitalists that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to increase socialistic programs and regulate capitalism.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

Even among Christians there is differing opinions about what is a solution to a society that every Christian I believe would consider to be in deep moral trouble.

Conservative Christians would say the solution is to rebuke and execute evil.

Liberal Christians would say the solution is not to worry about good and evil but to love everyone.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

I hope the discussion of the alternatives is beneficial, but concede the discussion could lead to a hardening of positions to the point of hate and violence.

 

[TheReasoner]

Revelation1217 quote

Instead of trying to find someone to blame, I wish more people would take responsibility and would try to do what they can to fix things.

Response

A noble intention, but very difficult to implement.

Fixing things requires both an understanding of the problem and an agreement on a fix.

Right now Republican would say the Economic Problem was mostly the CRA socialistic program that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to restore capitalism and get out of socialistic programs.

Right now the democrats would say the Economic Problem was mostly greedy capitalists that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to increase socialistic programs and regulate capitalism.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

The love for money is the root of all evil.
I would not choose the capitalist notion. I don't think any people actually think the crisis is because of too much regulation Clirus. Look at what nations who suffer the must under the crisis have in common: A consistent lack of regulation which enabled the sub prime loans in the first place.

Even among Christians there is differing opinions about what is a solution to a society that every Christian I believe would consider to be in deep moral trouble.

Conservative Christians would say the solution is to rebuke and execute evil.

Liberal Christians would say the solution is not to worry about good and evil but to love everyone.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

I hope the discussion of the alternatives is beneficial, but concede the discussion could lead to a hardening of positions to the point of hate and violence.

I have never met any conservatives like the ones you describe outside the USA. I used to work for an ultra-conservative missions organization called NLM. And I sincerely doubt you would find anyone there who would agree to your description of a conservative. I am a conservative as well, but not by the US definition. This does not mean hat our conservatives are liberal and our liberals are waaaay out there though. It means we have different criteria for either label.

I used to be active in YWAM too. And have met Christians from all over the world. And consistently, the ONLY group I have met who hold a view like you do on death penalty, use of violence, immigration, law enforcement etc. are Americans. Why do you think this is? Do you think you're the only ones who have "seen the light" or could it be something else?


Dialogue, yes. I am all for that Clirus.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I am going to draw a lot of parallels between George Bush and Job. In both cases, the problems were not their fault and they both faced unjust criticism. Like Job, George Bush refused to curse God in order to win the acceptance of the unjust critics.

Criticism of extensive and incremental increases of government power in a Republic are highly justified scrutinies.

War on Terror

On 9/11 America was attacked by Islamic Terrorists. The Islamic Terrorists were known by the Clinton Administration but the Islamic Terrorists were allowed to flourish by the appeasement policy of the democrats and the Clinton Administration.

Define appeasement in this case.

You can fault Bush for inadequate preparation and execution of the Iraq War, but I make three points relative to the Iraq War.

1) The war was authorized by congress, 2) congress, under both democratic and republican control, passed every funding authorization bill that Bush submitted, and 3) Obama is continuing the Bush policies in the Middle East, however he is changing the titles.

It can be agreed that the war was not solely Bush's fault, but he was a key major proponent for the war and sought its justification rigorously.

Although the Atheistic Liberal News Media, the democrats and Obama know that Bush was right, they were willing to commit treason by criticizing Bush so that they could get control of the government.

Criticism of the State or any of its agents is not a treasonable offense. If it were, you have committed treason by calling for the impeachment of Obama despite the clear lack of any cause for impeachment.

Pacificist are people that do not understand the necessity of war nor what it takes to win a war, thus they end up starting wars. Clinton was afraid of the Pacificist of the democratic party so he pursued a policy of appeasement that allowed the Islamic Terrorists to grow till they attacked America and several European cities.

Those who make war necessary and inevitable simultaneously make peace unnecessary and impossible. J.F.K once reflected on this.

Pacifist/UN Observers
There are a lot of international organizations like the UN, international red cross, amnesty international, etc., that take a very pious position, but I think that they can all be summed up in one word, "Observers". The Geneva Convention is an international document of pious positions that do more harm than good.

Who would have thought that the prevention of war crimes was really such a terrible thing.

Many say that Bush did nothing, and that everything Bush did was wrong. I believe Bush attempted many things, but was faced by very well organized opposition from the Atheistic Liberal News Media and democrats for political purposes. Even physical conservatives hated Bush because he was a compassionate conservative.

I do not consider Bush to be a conservative at all. His policies have maximized government - something intrinsic to a movement towards the Left, and such is the price of neoconservatism.

Furthermore, it is extremely irresponsible for any elected official to beckon terrorists to 'bring it on.' And it is also a toxic fallacy to civil discourse to declare that "You are either with us, or you with the terrorists."

I hope the above has addressed all the unjust criticism that has been stated. At least I am satisfied I have defended a good Christian man.

Not really. The scrutinies of both his policies and actions still remains.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Revelation1217 quote

Instead of trying to find someone to blame, I wish more people would take responsibility and would try to do what they can to fix things.

Response

A noble intention, but very difficult to implement.

Fixing things requires both an understanding of the problem and an agreement on a fix.

Right now Republican would say the Economic Problem was mostly the CRA socialistic program that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to restore capitalism and get out of socialistic programs.

Right now the democrats would say the Economic Problem was mostly greedy capitalists that created a meltdown of the economic system that was over leveraged and too much in debt, so the solution is to increase socialistic programs and regulate capitalism.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

Even among Christians there is differing opinions about what is a solution to a society that every Christian I believe would consider to be in deep moral trouble.

Conservative Christians would say the solution is to rebuke and execute evil.

Liberal Christians would say the solution is not to worry about good and evil but to love everyone.

Which do you choose or do you offer another alternative?

I hope the discussion of the alternatives is beneficial, but concede the discussion could lead to a hardening of positions to the point of hate and violence.

You can't execute 'evil'. It still remains after the agent of evil activity has been eliminated.

 

[clirus]

faith guardian quote

I used to be active in YWAM too. And have met Christians from all over the world. And consistently, the ONLY group I have met who hold a view like you do on death penalty, use of violence, immigration, law enforcement etc. are Americans. Why do you think this is? Do you think you're the only ones who have "seen the light" or could it be something else?

Response

I believe America is a unique religious situation. It could be that the only purpose of America is a way for God to provide for the existence of Israel, but that gets into some long discussion.

I believe America was God's gift to Christians to see how long they could hold to Christian Principles. Every nation and every person has the opportunity to be a Christian, but I believe God separated Christians from the encumbrances of Europe and put into place all that was necessary (Constitution) for America to stay a Christian nation. I believe America is failing to use the tools that God provided (elections, judicial system, etc.) so that America is in deep trouble from domestic and foreign enemies that threaten the existence of America.

The pirates threatened the existence of shipping, so they need to be executed. Evil must be dealt with or it will overtake good. I do not agree with the concept that good overcomes evil. All the Bible is about avoiding evil and dealing with evil. Evil is to be greatly feared.

There are many problems produced by teaching only God's Love and ignoring God's Righteousness. I believe the Church will be held accountable for this.

America is not perfect, but I believe Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism is as good as it gets. If someone offers and defends that something else is better, then I will consider it, but so far, all I hear is criticism without an alternative.

PS - I enjoy the dialogue with everyone, but especially with you and jgarden. You have challenged my understanding of God and the Bible and I hope I have challenged yours. When we get to Heaven, God will probable tell me I was too Righteous and you were too Loving.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe America is a unique religious situation. It could be that the only purpose of America is a way for God to provide for the existence of Israel, but that gets into some long discussion.

I believe America was God's gift to Christians to see how long they could hold to Christian Principles. Every nation and every person has the opportunity to be a Christian, but I believe God separated Christians from the encumbrances of Europe and put into place all that was necessary (Constitution) for America to stay a Christian nation. I believe America is failing to use the tools that God provided (elections, judicial system, etc.) so that America is in deep trouble from domestic and foreign enemies that threaten the existence of America.

Clirus, God did not author the Constitution, nor was it written with any intention of America being a Christian nation. God did not provide elections and the judicial system. All these are human inventions.