Creeping Liberalism

[~Anastasia~]

Historically, if a Baptist wanted to change churches for any reason they needed a transfer letter from their former church to their new church. I know of Protestant churches in my area that will phone your previous church to inquire if the person is under discipline and if they were baptized using the Trinitarian formula. Before they become members the new person is examined by the Elders and after it is put to a congregational vote.

Pulpit & Pen is a podcast that consistently attacks ecumenicalism in the Southern Baptist Convention. You will find Reformed Christians (paedobaptists and credobaptists) are not overly ecumenical.

Why is the Orthodox church apart of the World Council of churches? Isn't that ecumenicalism with liberal lines of Christianity?

Thanks

Yes, we had to "transfer letter" if we wanted to be a part of the congregation. My husband, who had been sprinkled as a baby in the Methodist church had to be baptized. We had to sign statements affirming (among other things) that we wouldn't take jobs in restaurants, convenience stores, or grocery stores (since they sold alcohol). We had to be voted on. At least that was the church I joined as an adult. As a child, it was far less complicated. I was on my own, went to whatever congregation I could walk or ride my bike to, or had a ride to. I switched variously from independent baptist, Southern baptist (most common), and others. But I was allowed to receive communion at them after I was baptized, and I was allowed to receive at the church my family joined as an adult (though my husband was not, since they didn't recognize his baptism).

And at times, I do realize they are not particularly ecumenical. I've been put out for daring to read or endorse a translation other than King James 1611.

I can't speak as regards Orthodoxy in the world council though - I don't know about that. But it seems just intuitively reasonable to me that if someone is going to have a world council of believers, why not invite some bishops that can trace back to the Apostles?

 

[buzuxi02]

No, not at all, but my conversations with Russian Orthodox give me the impression that Russia is the Third Rome. When I attend a Greek Orthodox church they were liberal, cultural and more interested in being Greek than being Orthodox.
.

In theory the third Rome came to an end when the bolsheviks murdered the last tsar. It was this (Rome)that was the restraining force mentioned in Paul's epistle.
And yes Moscow was the third Rome as history has accepted. Hence tsar is russian for caesar and the surname of Romanov (of the romans) given to those final russian kings.

 

[JM]

I've also seen Orthodox Greeks claim they were Catholic without the Pope. When the Parish priest retired many of the Greek Orthodox took communion in the Roman Catholic churches. To me that seems liberal and ecumenical.

 

[buzuxi02]

Well the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church.
Now what parish was this that greeks took communion in a Latin church???

I'm a cradle Greek Orthodox and probably the most anti-ecumenist on this board. I probably have been the most critical of ecumenists minded bishops and publicly have stated that both Meletios Metaxakis and Athenagoras of sorry memory should and (believe in time) will be dropped from the diptych (anathemized)over their ecumenist policies.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't get the point of this thread.....yes, you will find "liberals" in Orthodoxy who don't care about these things. where I go to Church non Orthodox are not allowed to commune and we may not commune at any parish. and all of the parishes I have been to have been like this.

seriously, JM, are you here just to cause problems? saying stuff like this as some kinda dig against Orthodoxy is like writing against Judaism because Adam Richman eats pork.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't get the point of this thread.....yes, you will find "liberals" in Orthodoxy who don't care about these things. where I go to Church non Orthodox are not allowed to commune and we may not commune at any parish. and all of the parishes I have been to have been like this.

seriously, JM, are you here just to cause problems? saying stuff like this as some kinda dig against Orthodoxy is like writing against Judaism because Adam Richman eats pork.

I'm curious, what do you mean you may not commune at any parish?

I spoke with my priest, and he advised of differences I may find. I had his blessing to commune in canonical Churches. He advised me also to contact the priest in advance and provide my Church information so they could contact him if there was any question of my ability to receive communion.

I do also wonder the point of the thread - I think the question has been answered. No, we don't know any parishes like that.

And our priest advises before the Eucharist (if there are visitors) that only baptized Orthodox may commune. Other considerations include (but are probably not limited to): women should remove lipstick, we do so in an orderly fashion, we are expected to be there before the reading of the Gospel at the latest if we expect to receive, and we are expected to fast in preparation, not have serious sin that requires confession, keep up a regular schedule of prayer, fasting, scripture reading, and so on. Nothing particularly lax or ecumenical there.

Though I know he would allow communion for an Orthodox Christian who "needs" it and then offer confession/absolution afterward, if the sin is not grave and they are not separated from the Church and this is what is best for the person. That's about as liberal as we get.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm curious, what do you mean you may not commune at any parish?

meaning any heterodox parish, sorry about that

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've also seen Orthodox Greeks claim they were Catholic without the Pope.

We are catholic. Without the pope. That's a problem I see though - some of the things we say, people outside the Church don't understand the words in the same way that we do, and it leads to misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

When the Parish priest retired many of the Greek Orthodox took communion in the Roman Catholic churches. To me that seems liberal and ecumenical.

It's not my place to judge what anyone else does. If someone is in a position where it is impossible to receive communion because it is not available, that is between them, their bishop, and God. Maybe some of the people weren't well-educated. I don't know. I can't see folks at my parish being willing to do that, but I don't know the scenario. And as Matt says - what happened somewhere at one parish in circumstances I don't know - has nothing to do with me or other Orthodox I know anyway.

 

[~Anastasia~]

meaning any heterodox parish, sorry about that

Ah, ok. Yes, a definite no-no. Gotcha. Father said I had to refrain from that from the point I entered the catechumenate, though I hadn't actually received communion at a heterodox parish since before I started regularly attending the Orthodox.

 

[E.C.]

I have heard reports of Greek parishes that were said to be more like cultural centers than the Church. I don't know. Our parish is not like that, nor have I visited any or known personally anyone who was in one. I suppose it's entirely possible. Such charges often have some basis in fact somewhere. But it's not something I have seen. Admittedly my scope in Orthodoxy is pretty limited.

From Williamsburg to Virginia Beach there are four Greek churches; one is a church the others might as well be consulates for the Greek government. Two of them advertise themselves on Google as Hellenic centers. The only one of the bunch that looks, smells and acts like a church is considered the "liberal", or my personal favorite, "cabana parish" in the entire diocese stretching from VA to NJ. Thank God I quit going there.

Back to the OP though, JM, what you're seeing is what happens when people are not properly religiously educated either in their youth or in adulthood. It's similar to Italian or Irish Catholic parishes that care more about their kids being Irish or Italian than being Catholic

 

[JM]

I was a regular attender of Greek Orthodox church, btw who convinced me to use the KJV only, when they told me they were Roman Catholic without the Pope.



In fact, when the priest retired some of the families joined the local RCs!

I've found the EO are experiencing the same issues Prots are. Tradition doesn't seem to guarantee faithfulness.

Jm

 

[gzt]

Well, I don't think crypto-Catholicism is an issue of liberalism vs conservatism, it's a different kettle of fish.

 

[JM]

I'm all ears. This was a problem mentioned more than once.

 

[GregConstantine]

People are always going to hold to their own opinions about any given topic, whether they are Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant. There's nothing anyone can do about that.

What is problematic however, is leadership turning a blind eye to those who actively preach or teach their opinions. That is something that can be dealt with. Unfortunately, Some of the Orthodox hierarchs are not immune from this. There's been recent "incidences" where certain individuals have openly preach or taught something contrary to the teachings of the Church and either nothing was done, or they got a very light slap on the wrist.

If we wish not to see this phenomena continue, we need to hold our leaders accountable and stop making excuses for these people.

 

[E.C.]

I've found the EO are experiencing the same issues Prots are. Tradition doesn't seem to guarantee faithfulness.

I've said it before and I'll say it as long as I'm alive; education education education.

If we wish not to see this phenomena continue, we need to hold our leaders accountable and stop making excuses for these people.

True that.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Tradition doesn't seem to guarantee faithfulness.

of course not, and it never has. faithfulness to the Tradition guarantees faithfulness

 

[gzt]

I'm all ears. This was a problem mentioned more than once.

Well, I'm not going to air dirty laundry. But I would just note that you haven't really said what you mean by liberalism, which I don't think is a very well-defined concept to apply to churchly matters, anyway. But I would just say that crypto-Catholicism is a theological opinion that is perhaps not of the same sort as, say, a desire to ordain women - at least, depending on who holds it. I mean, for example, if somebody is almost a Traditionalist Catholic but is an Orthodox Christian, it would be odd to call that "liberalism", no matter your definition. It's probably not being a good Orthodox, but I presume "not being a good Orthodox" is not your definition of "liberal".

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

I have seen far more that have come out against it, then for it. although one is one too many. you find this kinda stuff everywhere. Satan knows he cannot overthrow the Church from the outside, so he attacks from within and in the name of "love."

Funny thing Army, I think that almost the exact same thing has been said in our church aswell...

False perception of love and attempts to redefine the wording and meaning of the word itself so to confuse sheeps to think they're fighting for the good side when actually they're leading people away from the faith.
It's indeed highly demonic and dare I say even satanic.

Lord have mercy!

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

Baptists find ecumenicalism problematic. My Pastor fences the Table during the Lord's Supper excluding nonbaptists.

Ecumenism is considered very problematic for Lutherans as well .

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

This thread makes me think of a question I have, but haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to: I know that if you become Orthodox you're supposed to only worship at Orthodox churches/take communion at an Orthodox church.

What happens if you move somewhere that there is no Orthodox church, or there's only one Orthodox church and it really sucks? I asked the choir director at our church that question, and he told me about another Orthodox church near us that has a lot of problems and ours is like a family. But, he didn't tell me what you should do if your only option is like the first church.

I don't like the Quaker meeting I attend with my husband. Were it my choice alone, I wouldn't go there. I would probably go full time to the Orthodox church. But, because I'm a member of a Quaker meeting in Virginia that's part of the same yearly meeting it's expected that I'll attend this meeting even though I feel spiritually stifled, repressed, and even oppressed there and get absolutely nothing out of the worship. Except for the little bit of socializing after meeting, for me, it's wasted time.

I haven't ever been to any Orthodox church other than the one I live near. Clearly they're not all the same - as is evidenced by this thread.