Could an atheist go to heaven?

[Light of the East]

So if circumcision is the ritual of salvation in the OT then how does a female get saved?

Great question, and one I had to ponder for quite a while when I came to understand the nature of circumcision and salvation in the Old Covenant.

In covenant theology, the covenant head acts on behalf of all who are under his headship. This is why, for instance, that the actions of Adam condemned the whole of Creation. Notice that the condemnation of the Fall did not begin until it was Adam who ate of the forbidden fruit. Eve ate - nothing happened. Adam acted in the position of covenant headship over Creation. His act condemned all Creation.

The same thing has happened in the Scriptures over and over and over. Why, for instance, did the wives and children of Dathan and Abihu suffer when they were doing nothing to oppose Moses? Because Dathan and Abihu were acting in the position of covenant head over their families. What they did - for good or for evil - had a direct effect upon their families. The actions of the covenant head bring either blessing or curse upon those under their headship.

This is also why St. Paul can speak of Jesus' work on the Cross as effecting salvation for the whole world, including Creation. Acting as covenant head, His obedience, suffering, death, and resurrection is credited to the whole of Creation and all of humanity, thus saving us as a whole.

And this is the difference that Protestantism does not understand. Salvation is corporate, not individual. It not about going somewhere and having your own "personal relationship with Jesus." It is about being part of the covenant community which is in covenant with God and enjoying the blessings of that communal relationship.

Thus, when a pagan entered Israel with his wife and children, his circumcision was done on behalf of his entire family. They were blessed by his obedience and saved through his entering the covenant congregation, since they entered with him under his headship.

Ray Sutton, a Protestant writer, addresses this issue of covenant theology and the principles of covenant in his book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER. You can read it free online at the I.C.E. freebooks website. This is the principle of hierarchy or covenant headship.

Salvation is not about some act of "accepting Jehovah as personal Lord and Savior." Salvation is always about faith in God and our corresponding leaving of the world and its ways (or paganism and idolatry in the Old Covenant) and becoming one of the congregation of God's people. Circumcision was the way this was done for both the covenant head and all those under his authority.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

So if circumcision is the ritual of salvation in the OT then how does a female get saved?

Ouch! Just the thought of it.

Jesus was circumcised. So too was John the Baptist. Many men today are. Paul said neither circumcision or no circumcision matters to the man. What matters is keeping the commands of God. He also said of those who are circumcised that Christ will be of no advantage to them.
Odd being Paul circumcised or had circumcised, Timothy. Acts 16:3 And Paul also warned the Corinth church to receive circumcision.


What then does that say of Christian men today? When they were circumcised as infants and had no say about it? And often by the decision of Christian parents.
Galatians 5:2-11
Look, I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. ...

 

[KWCrazy]

The God I follow is merciful and loving and would not condemn good people.

Atheists condemn themselves.

 

[KWCrazy]

Hummmmmmm?????????
I sort of think that if an atheist died and found he/she was
about to go to either place said person would cease being an
atheist pronto.

Lucifer believes in God.

 

[KWCrazy]

What about Purgatory? If everyone who is not yet fit for Heaven goes to a Purgatory, then eventually everyone (who isn't eternally stubborn in their ways that is) will come to repent of their sins, feel sorry, and want to be with God in Heaven. .

That's the doctrine of man. Jesus never mentioned Purgatory.

 

[jeager016]

Lucifer believes in God.

I do believe that Lucifer knows Lucifer's fate.

I believe that Satan is real and exists but I don't worship Satan.
I'm sure you see the difference.
( I hope.)

 

[jeager016]

That's the doctrine of man. Jesus never mentioned Purgatory.

Indeed it is.
Not Biblical at all and another bastardization of the Bible by
the early Church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

The "church" would charge believers to pray a lost loved
one out of Purgatory.
The church got very wealthy by this and other scams.

 

[KWCrazy]

The "church" would charge believers to pray a lost loved
one out of Purgatory.
The church got very wealthy by this and other scams.

This is what is meant by using the Lord's name in vain; hiding your evil deeds under the mantle of God's will. It's the same corruption that led to eating fish on friday because the fish markets paid a healthy sum to the Vatican. The Vatican also offered tickets to salvation for those wealthy enough to pay and foolish enough to listen to the false doctrine. It's amazing how the evil of man seeps corruption into everything. I thought of this when Jimmy Swaggart said he needed to raise a million dollars or the Lord would take him. Of course... the money would be sent to Swaggart's address. If those who believe can be corrupted by evil, those who do not believe can be consumed by evil.

 

[rjs330]

Get you?
That's OK. I tire of the level of paranoia, projection, misquotation, and passive aggressive personality that's too often displayed by those who call themselves people of Christ.
Believe as you wish. It matters little to me.

You know Vanilla you have a good point. I've been on these boards long enough and there are people who try and " get you" by asking questions to lead you down a certain path and then try and twist your words into something else.

So please excuse my paranoia. I prefer a straight up conversation with folks. And the last thing I am is passive agressive. I really just want to have a conversation with you about your belief and why you believe the way you do. Because people have been led astray by believing and teaching things contrary to Gods word. I don't want that to happen to you and it's not right for me to allow you to do it to others without attempting to correct you.

Now I may be completely misunderstanding you here. This could be a miscommunication issue. It does happen. It happens between my wife and I,all to frequently[emoji3]. So, please don't give up. It appears that we disagree and I really want to know your point and where you get it from.

 

[Light of the East]

That's the doctrine of man. Jesus never mentioned Purgatory.

Jesus never mentioned "believer's baptism" either, did He? He also never mentioned "making a decision for Jesus," in vitro fertilization, or artificial contraception.

You sola types have a real problem trying to make the whole Christian life be about that which is only found in the Bible.

 

[KWCrazy]

Jesus never mentioned "believer's baptism" either, did He?

Jesus was baptised.

He also never mentioned "making a decision for Jesus,"

He said to "Take up your cross and follow me."

in vitro fertilization, or artificial contraception.

Bogus argument. Such things are not doctrinal. Jesus didn't mention cars either. Are you selling yours? Do you own one sword? Do you spend your days in the field planting and harvesting?
If Purgatory existed, Christ would have mentioned it. He spoke of Heaven and Hell, both of which exist. He spoke of Adam and Noah. he spoke of Jonah and Job. He spoke of praying to the Father, not intercessors.

 

[Light of the East]

Indeed it is.
Not Biblical at all and another bastardization of the Bible by
the early Church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Purgatory

The first Christians prayed for the dead:

Offerings for the dead were known to ancient Jewish practice, and it has been speculated that Christianity may have taken its similar practice from its Jewish heritage.[10] In Christianity, prayer for the dead is attested since at least the 2nd century,[11] evidenced in part by the tomb inscription of Abercius, Bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia (d. c. 200).[12] Celebration of the Eucharist for the dead is attested to since at least the 3rd century.[13]

Purification after death
Specific examples of belief in purification after death and of the communion of the living with the dead through prayer are found in many of the Church Fathers.[14] Irenaeus (c. 130-202) mentioned an abode where the souls of the dead remained until the universal judgment, a process that has been described as one which "contains the concept of... purgatory."[15] Both St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215) and his pupil, Origen of Alexandria (c. 185-254), developed a view of purification after death;[16] this view drew upon the notion that fire is a divine instrument from the Old Testament, and understood this in the context of New Testament teachings such as baptism by fire, from the Gospels, and a purificatory trial after death, from St. Paul.[17] Origen, in arguing against soul sleep, stated that the souls of the elect immediately entered paradise unless not yet purified, in which case they passed into a state of punishment, a penal fire, which is to be conceived as a place of purification.[18] For both Clement and Origen, the fire was neither a material thing nor a metaphor, but a "spiritual fire".[19] An early Latin author, Tertullian (c. 160-225), also articulated a view of purification after death.[20] In Tertullian's understanding of the afterlife, the souls of martyrs entered directly into eternal blessedness,[21] whereas the rest entered a generic realm of the dead. There the wicked suffered a foretaste of their eternal punishments,[21] whilst the good experienced various stages and places of bliss wherein "the idea of a kind of purgatory… is quite plainly found," an idea that is representative of a view widely dispersed in antiquity.[22] Later examples, wherein further elaborations are articulated, include St. Cyprian (d. 258),[23] St. John Chrysostom (c. 347-407),[24] and St. Augustine (354-430),[25] among others.

The "church" would charge believers to pray a lost loved one out of Purgatory.
The church got very wealthy by this and other scams.

You are right about one thing -- Purgatory is a scam, pure and simple. It was a real money machine, too.

However, the idea of being purged from one's sins - or you could call it being changed into the nature of God - is a reality. When we die, we will meet the Lord, who is fire.

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Apparently, Medieval theologians in their desire to scare the hell (literally) out of unruly congregants, decided that Dante's Inferno was a more accurate description of the fire in the next life than that description given by the Bible. This led to the painting of the afterlife as a torture chamber rather than a meeting with the God who is fire.

And what is that fire? Theologians have said that it is the burning passion of His all-consuming love. In other words, we meet love when we go to the other side, but within ourselves will still be much selfishness and self-centeredness which will be burned away when it meets the fires of God's love. Just as wood meets fire and becomes fire, so we meet God and become partakers of His nature. We become like Him in everything but His essence, and all that is not like Him shall be burned away.

Scripture speaks of this, for instance, in talking about the refining fire burning away dross from gold. That is the purgation of the next life. It is done in love, it is to cleanse us of all that is not like God, and the purpose of it is to restore our natures to godlikeness.

 

[jeager016]

Well I view the Bible as a kind of "owners manual" for human interaction.

 

[Light of the East]

Jesus was baptised.

He said to "Take up your cross and follow me."

Not the point. Not what I said. Did Jesus in specific mention "believer's baptism?" Yes or no?

You are the one who is being bogus. You are making the point that the word "Purgatory" is not in the Bible. Therefore, to follow this line of argument, you are saying that only the words that are in the Bible or are spoken by Jesus can be true. Therefore, since Jesus did not mention the words "believer's baptism," that concept is not true either.

Jesus was baptized. Which means what? That could just as easily mean that we should baptize our infant children. It is an argument without a point.

Bogus argument. Such things are not doctrinal. Jesus didn't mention cars either. Are you selling yours? Do you own one sword? Do you spend your days in the field planting and harvesting?

If Purgatory existed, Christ would have mentioned it.

Since we know that Jesus was a law-keeping Jew, our holy Lord, then we know that He did and kept all the Jewish practices, one of which was to pray for the dead. Your point is moot. The fact is that the Bible says that Jesus said and did much more than was recorded in a few epistles. You and I have no idea the things that Jesus spoke to His disciples about. We have no idea of those things which were not recorded.

 

[jeager016]

On page 1333 of the N.T. it says: "Don't take yourself so seriously."

 

[Light of the East]

He said to "Take up your cross and follow me."

Did He use the specific words "Make a decision for Jesus?" Did St. Paul?

NO!

Your point is invalid. If you are going to try to play "Mr. Bible Literalist," then play the game according to the rules. You say the word "Purgatory" is not in the Bible, which means that you only believe those exact words which are precise and in the Bible. Nothing else.

Don't try to change the rules when I call you out on it. The words "make a decision for Jesus are nowhere in the Bible."

You would lose a debate big time, Ace.

 

[Light of the East]

On page 1333 of the N.T. it says: "Don't take yourself so seriously."

Is that addressed to li'l ole me???

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

If someone blatantly rejects God I don't see how this person can enter the Kingdom by flesh alone. For it says flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God and an atheist is nothing more than that.

But that is not really true about atheists. Atheists have a spirit, a soul, even if they deny having a spirit or a soul.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

But that is not really true about atheists. Atheists have a spirit, a soul, even if they deny having a spirit or a soul.

Atheists have a soul but not holy spirit which is required. Animals have a soul but not holy spirit. Atheists like we were before being born again are like the animals with flesh and blood which includes a soul but nothing more.

 

[tulc]

You know who seemed to think non-Christians would go to Heaven? C S Lewis (in the book: The Last Battle):

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the World and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touch my forehead with his tongue and said, 'Son, thou are welcome.' But I said, "Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.' He answered, 'Child, all the service thou has done to Tash, I account as service done to me.' Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, 'Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one?' The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, 'It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites -- I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, 'Lord, though knowest how much I understand.' But I said also (for the truth constrained me), 'Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.' 'Beloved,' said the Glorious One, 'unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.'

tulc(is just sayn')