Could an atheist go to heaven?

[2Timothy2:15]

Your quote shows that you do not know the history of Christianity, much the same as I did not. Much the same as me, you have believed fairy tales told to you from Protestant pastors. I have seen sites where Calvinist evangelists have said that the first Christians were Presbyterians. I have seen sites where the writer says that Jesus preached from the KJV Bible. Serious!

You need to read the writings of the first Christians and stop believing in these Protestant fairy tales. You need to read the councils and see that these men defended the deity of Christ and the salvation by faith through grace, opposing the works of the Law that the Jews were trying to impose on Christians.

Or you can remain in la-la land. The choice is really yours.

First of all I do not believe in protestant fairly tales. The simple fact you see it as us vs them is a huge fundamental problem. I follow Christ, not men. Early "church history" has been distorted so I will stick to the bible. Sure one can read that, but it does not establish doctrine nor should it.

Also, I am not a Calvinist, so why would a read a book from someone who holds to that doctrine. In addition, if you think there are not ecumentalist on both sides of the fence that is another issue because there are. That is a whole much larger topic.

I asked the question about the eggs for a reason. But it eludes you a bit as I suspected. Did it ever occur to you that someone might be informed. You just come into things thinking you are always right and you are smarter than everyone else. This has become abundantly obvious through your posts.

I noticed the avatar right away. I noticed those eggs are of eastern European origin before you confirmed it, but I wanted to be sure first, which is why I asked and did not make assumptions. I also know you think this is some Christian symbol, but it is not. It is pagan. You claim to be this wise person but have no idea about Ishtar and eggs and where the notion of Easter Eggs come from? Just more blending of paganism with the RCC which is producing the fruit we are all witnessing through the doctrine you present. Having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. No surprise that someone who thinks Easter Eggs is Christian and thinks circumcision is a means of salvation in the OT and thinks membership to the RCC is a free ticket to heaven would be so arrogant and full of contempt.

The whole comment about he KJV bible just tells me you do not really have a clue and you have been so tainted against anything that does not fit into your religious box.

I apologize if I come across blunt, but frankly you need to be told. Jesus and the apostles did the same thing. I truly hope you come to the simplicity of the gospel and begin to trust Jesus as your savior rather than tradition and doctrine of men. Be blessed.

 

[Stillicidia]

If you heard of Jesus as a potential lord and savior, remember that god knows the hearts and minds.

Jesus could intercede if they had never known who he is.
He would ask if they would accept him as their savior, and they need to say yes.

 

[Light of the East]

First of all I do not believe in protestant fairly tales.

Okay....suppose I give you a list of "fairy tales?" Remember, a fairy tale is something that is a story presented for entertainment, but is not true at all.

The "Rapture of the Church" False as can be. Created in the mid-1800's by a wee Scottish lassie who apparently had to many pistachio and pickle sandwiches before going to bed. She claimed to have seen all this in a dream (how utterly convenient for the anti-Catholic bigots of that age!!) told it to a preacher who took it to America where it took off like fire in gasoline soaked prairie dry grass. Utter fairy tale.

"Justification by faith alone" Never known until it was cooked up by the Reformers. You could look until your beard was long and gray like mine and you wouldn't find this nonsense being taught in the first century - or the first fifteen centuries - of Christianity. Cooked up by Luther and garnished by Calvin, it was a soothing balm to Luther's tortured mind, which could not find peace with God. Read his biography sometime. He was a deeply troubled man.

"Making a decision for Jesus" Interesting that those very Evangelicals who demand that we prove our Catholic doctrines to be in the Bible word for word will stand on this doctrine when no such wording appears in the Bible anywhere. You can have my whole fortune if you find those words in the Bible. They ain't there....and the whole concept was invented by Charles Grandison Finney in his "new methods of evangelization" in the 1800's.

"Once saved - always saved" Another invention of the Protestant Reformation. For 15 centuries the Church, both East and West, realized that because we are free creatures with free will, it is entirely possible to walk away from a relationship. A relationship you are chained to against your will is not freedom - it is slavery. Christianity is littered with the stories of men who were in the Church and left Christ, not the least being Judas.

"Forensic justification" Or so-called "imputed righteousness." Goes hand in hand with justification by faith alone. Another false gift from the Reformers, but this one is amazing because they had to ignore the Greek in the Bible to come up with this idea. The word translated "imputed" in Romans is logizomai. It means to count what is really there. It does not in any way mean that you are spiritual bankrupt, so God counts someone else's righteousness and gives it to you. That is not the meaning of the word and even the Strongs Concordance online at Blue Letter Bible (which is very Protestant) admits this. It is an utter falsehood!

"The Invisible Church" Calvin and his Institutes is responsible for this fantasy. There is no such thing as an "invisible church" made up of true believers. Such a concept not only violates the principles of the congregation (church) which are seen in Scripture, but they create massive problems, such as how does an invisible church establish church discipline? Who is the head of the Church on earth? (Yes, yes, I know.....Christ is the Head of the Church. That's not what I am talking about. Who is the earthly head to whom we answer?)

There's more....I'm just too tired to think of them right now. When I say something, there is a reason I say it. I'm not just trying to be cute. Every one of the above mentioned items are fairy tales.

 

[Light of the East]

Also, I am not a Calvinist, so why would a read a book from someone who holds to that doctrine.

Because you might learn something. **gasp**

Sutton's book has errors (he treats the covenant as a contract, which is fatal to a proper understanding) but he outlines very solid covenant principles that come from the Bible and that everyone should know. Even Catholics read Protestant literature and quote Protestant authors. Truth can be found everywhere in some degree.

In addition, if you think there are not ecumentalist on both sides of the fence that is another issue because there are. That is a whole much larger topic.

I asked the question about the eggs for a reason. But it eludes you a bit as I suspected. Did it ever occur to you that someone might be informed.

Unfortunately, the "information" you posted later in your post shows me where you get your source material from. Look, I was a very anti-Catholic Evangelical for 25 years. I know this stuff. I read every Chick tract and booklet ever published, read all the typical anti-Catholic literature, and listened to men like "Dr" Bob Jones. It never occurred to me that they were deceived and were passing on their deception. Not until I finally got the courage one day to do my own research and found out how utterly ridiculous some of their claims are. Not only ridiculous, but it seems that anything that comes down the pike that trashes the Catholic faith, they just jump on and start preaching without fact-checking it at all. It's just hate-pure and simple.

You just come into things thinking you are always right and you are smarter than everyone else.

Ha ha! And you don't???? Your very first words in your post to me show me that you are just like me in that regard. Listen, I'm 67 years old and I've been around a while. I've chased the Christian dream through several denominations, studied the Bible quite a bit, talked with hundreds of other Christians and examined their beliefs, so yeah, I DO think that I know a lot. I have read a ton of books from both sides of the aisle and right now I am studying the Orthodox faith to see if perhaps I should convert from Catholicism. Just as no one told me all the facts about the Catholic faith when I was Protestant, so no one told me about Orthodoxy when I was becoming Catholic

I'm always reading and learning, so yeah, I do have a bit of an attitude, mostly towards young pups who have an attitude with me.

 

[Light of the East]

No surprise that someone who thinks Easter Eggs is Christian and thinks circumcision is a means of salvation in the OT and thinks membership to the RCC is a free ticket to heaven would be so arrogant and full of contempt.

Your ignorance is showing. See? You don't even know that those are Pascha eggs. We don't "do" Easter in the Eastern Catholic Church. Our celebration of the Resurrection is called Pascha. Try to remember that the next time you see a Psanky Egg.

I explained to you how salvation is covenantal and how one enters the covenant community by circumcision. There is no evidence whatsoever that salvation is some individualistic relationship between "me and Jesus." That idea also came about in the mid-1800's. When the children of Israel were taken out of Egypt, a representation of our salvation, you see no one going it alone. You either joined Israel and marched out of Egypt as part of the congregation, or you did not. Salvation, that is, being delivered from the pagan world around us, is being part of the covenant community.

And I nowhere wrote that membership in the RCC is a free ticket to heaven. You are confused. That is a Protestant belief, i.e., that if you make a "decision for Jesus" your ticket to heaven is punched and you can sit back and enjoy the ride. No informed Catholic believes that and the Bible doesn't teach such a thing. I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Your ignorance is showing. See? You don't even know that those are Pascha eggs. We don't "do" Easter in the Eastern Catholic Church. Our celebration of the Resurrection is called Pascha. Try to remember that the next time you see a Psanky Egg.

I explained to you how salvation is covenantal and how one enters the covenant community by circumcision. There is no evidence whatsoever that salvation is some individualistic relationship between "me and Jesus." That idea also came about in the mid-1800's. When the children of Israel were taken out of Egypt, a representation of our salvation, you see no one going it alone. You either joined Israel and marched out of Egypt as part of the congregation, or you did not. Salvation, that is, being delivered from the pagan world around us, is being part of the covenant community.

And I nowhere wrote that membership in the RCC is a free ticket to heaven. You are confused. That is a Protestant belief, i.e., that if you make a "decision for Jesus" your ticket to heaven is punched and you can sit back and enjoy the ride. No informed Catholic believes that and the Bible doesn't teach such a thing. I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

Okay....suppose I give you a list of "fairy tales?" Remember, a fairy tale is something that is a story presented for entertainment, but is not true at all.

The "Rapture of the Church" False as can be. Created in the mid-1800's by a wee Scottish lassie who apparently had to many pistachio and pickle sandwiches before going to bed. She claimed to have seen all this in a dream (how utterly convenient for the anti-Catholic bigots of that age!!) told it to a preacher who took it to America where it took off like fire in gasoline soaked prairie dry grass. Utter fairy tale.

I will not continue with your babble any longer. I do not subscribe to the pre-trib false doctrine anyhow. Also there is a ton of evidence it originated from a Jesuit, ironically enough...



"Justification by faith alone" Never known until it was cooked up by the Reformers. You could look until your beard was long and gray like mine and you wouldn't find this nonsense being taught in the first century - or the first fifteen centuries - of Christianity. Cooked up by Luther and garnished by Calvin, it was a soothing balm to Luther's tortured mind, which could not find peace with God. Read his biography sometime. He was a deeply troubled man.

"Making a decision for Jesus" Interesting that those very Evangelicals who demand that we prove our Catholic doctrines to be in the Bible word for word will stand on this doctrine when no such wording appears in the Bible anywhere. You can have my whole fortune if you find those words in the Bible. They ain't there....and the whole concept was invented by Charles Grandison Finney in his "new methods of evangelization" in the 1800's.

"Once saved - always saved" Another invention of the Protestant Reformation. For 15 centuries the Church, both East and West, realized that because we are free creatures with free will, it is entirely possible to walk away from a relationship. A relationship you are chained to against your will is not freedom - it is slavery. Christianity is littered with the stories of men who were in the Church and left Christ, not the least being Judas.

"Forensic justification" Or so-called "imputed righteousness." Goes hand in hand with justification by faith alone. Another false gift from the Reformers, but this one is amazing because they had to ignore the Greek in the Bible to come up with this idea. The word translated "imputed" in Romans is logizomai. It means to count what is really there. It does not in any way mean that you are spiritual bankrupt, so God counts someone else's righteousness and gives it to you. That is not the meaning of the word and even the Strongs Concordance online at Blue Letter Bible (which is very Protestant) admits this. It is an utter falsehood!

"The Invisible Church" Calvin and his Institutes is responsible for this fantasy. There is no such thing as an "invisible church" made up of true believers. Such a concept not only violates the principles of the congregation (church) which are seen in Scripture, but they create massive problems, such as how does an invisible church establish church discipline? Who is the head of the Church on earth? (Yes, yes, I know.....Christ is the Head of the Church. That's not what I am talking about. Who is the earthly head to whom we answer?)

There's more....I'm just too tired to think of them right now. When I say something, there is a reason I say it. I'm not just trying to be cute. Every one of the above mentioned items are fairy tales.

 

[Chris1984]

A Catholic has absolutely no business talking about "fairy tales" and what is or isn't in the Bible. Purgatory? Indulgences? Praying to saints? The infallibility of the Pope? Give me a break.

 

[Light of the East]

A Catholic has absolutely no business talking about "fairy tales" and what is or isn't in the Bible. Purgatory? Indulgences? Praying to saints? The infallibility of the Pope? Give me a break.

There is reference to be purged of all that is "wood, hay, and stubble," i.e. all that is sinful in us, in 1 Corinthians 3. I'm sure you are familiar with the passage. Eastern Christians do not accept the idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the idea of being finally cleansed of our sinful natures so that we can be like Christ is biblical.

Indulgences go along with Purgatory as a Roman Rite idea, but the Catholic East does not accept it. So I am a Catholic who does not accept indulgences.

As for speaking with (or praying) the saints, have you forgotten Christ speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration? He is not the God of the dead. He is the God of the living, and the saints are alive in Christ - very alive. More alive than you or I can imagine.

 

[Chris1984]

And how does that translate to getting on your knees and praying to some nun for a blessing? When I go to heaven, should I expect people to fall to their knees and pray to me?

 

[2Timothy2:15]

There is reference to be purged of all that is "wood, hay, and stubble," i.e. all that is sinful in us, in 1 Corinthians 3. I'm sure you are familiar with the passage. Eastern Christians do not accept the idea of a place called "Purgatory," but the idea of being finally cleansed of our sinful natures so that we can be like Christ is biblical.

Indulgences go along with Purgatory as a Roman Rite idea, but the Catholic East does not accept it. So I am a Catholic who does not accept indulgences.

As for speaking with (or praying) the saints, have you forgotten Christ speaking with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration? He is not the God of the dead. He is the God of the living, and the saints are alive in Christ - very alive. More alive than you or I can imagine.

Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount of transfiguration represented Jesus Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. Moses being the Law, Elijah being the prophet....BTW - Elijah never died so that alone contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus never came down and said, did you see me with Moses and Elijah, pray to them...matter of fact Jesus never told us EVER to pray to any human or angel, dead or alive.

 

[Chris1984]

And don't get me started on the way you people think that you're literally eating Jesus' genetic material during communion. Or how you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is only valid if a priest routinely reinforces salvation for you. The most profoundly anti-Christian notion you people have is the idea that Jesus' sacrifice alone wasn't sufficient to give us grace. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he meant it. He alone accomplished the salvation of humanity, and there's nothing that a bunch of self-important priests can add to that work. "Fairy tales" indeed. Catholic, heal thyself.

 

[Light of the East]

And don't get me started on the way you people think that you're literally eating Jesus' genetic material during communion. Or how you think that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is only valid if a priest routinely reinforces salvation for you. The most profoundly anti-Christian notion you people have is the idea that Jesus' sacrifice alone wasn't sufficient to give us grace. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he meant it. He alone accomplished the salvation of humanity, and there's nothing that a bunch of self-important priests can add to that work. "Fairy tales" indeed. Catholic, heal thyself.

Well, I'm sorry you don't believe the Bible. Jesus said "This IS my Body" not "This merely represents my Body." And we know that is exactly what He meant because the men who heard Him say that went out and told the world that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ when consecrated. If Jesus had not meant that, then surely when He taught His disciples, He would have clarified it for them so that they did not teach something wrong.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough to give us grace. We believe that His grace began for us at the Cross and through the Sacraments is extended to us. Of course, one more difference between the East and West is that in the East, we do not believe that grace is a separate thing. When we speak of grace, we mean Christ. So if we say that the Sacraments give us grace, we are really saying that they give us Christ.

As for "It is finished...

What Jesus was speaking about was that the Old Covenant with its prophecies of Christ's coming was finished. When Christ died, that finished the Old Covenant to be replaced with the New (Heb. 8:13). The Jews are no longer the special people of God, but rather all believers are "the Israel of God."

No one is adding to the work of Christ when we participate in the Sacraments. The Sacraments are the way that the grace of God (or, Christ Himself) is administered to us. Just because you have an oil refinery that has taken crude oil and made it into gasoline does not mean that the process is finished. The gas station is the place where the gasoline is administered to the car to make it move.

Same thing with the priest. The priest administers the finished work of Christ to the believer.

And yes, since the doctrines of Protestantism were not known for 1500 years and cannot be found in the first century - they are fairy tales. All that I listed and then some.

 

[Light of the East]

Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount of transfiguration represented Jesus Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. Moses being the Law, Elijah being the prophet....BTW - Elijah never died so that alone contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus never came down and said, did you see me with Moses and Elijah, pray to them...matter of fact Jesus never told us EVER to pray to any human or angel, dead or alive.

Then why do you ask people to pray for you if Jesus never told us to pray for one another? That is all that we do when we ask for the intercession of the saints.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount of transfiguration represented Jesus Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. Moses being the Law, Elijah being the prophet....BTW - Elijah never died so that alone contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus never came down and said, did you see me with Moses and Elijah, pray to them...matter of fact Jesus never told us EVER to pray to any human or angel, dead or alive.

Then why do you ask people to pray for you if Jesus never told us to pray for one another? That is all that we do when we ask for the intercession of the saints.

Pray for the living. Come on.

 

[Chris1984]

So, when Jesus passed around the bread at Passover, the apostles thought that he had literally ripped that loaf right off his body, eh? Riiiight.

Catholicism is where you find the "fairy tales" and Biblical inaccuracies. Not Protestantism. The whole reason Protestantism exists is because you people were messing Christianity up so badly. "Here, give the Church five dollars and buy your suffering parents a few years out of Purgatory. And don't forget to come to Mass every Sunday, or Jesus can't save you."

 

[Chris1984]

Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount of transfiguration represented Jesus Fulfilling the Law and the Prophets. Moses being the Law, Elijah being the prophet....BTW - Elijah never died so that alone contradicts your doctrine.

Jesus never came down and said, did you see me with Moses and Elijah, pray to them...matter of fact Jesus never told us EVER to pray to any human or angel, dead or alive.

Then why do you ask people to pray for you if Jesus never told us to pray for one another? That is all that we do when we ask for the intercession of the saints.

Did you just willfully misread what he said? He said Jesus never told us to pray TO people, not FOR people. But misreading things is what Catholicism is frequently about.

 

[7trees]

That is not "believer's baptism," the fond invention of the mid-1800's revivalist types such as Charles Grandison Finney. You are trying to read into the verse that which is not there.

And if that is what was meant, then why didn't the first Christians perform "believer's baptism?" Why did it take almost 1900 years to be discovered if this is what this verse meant? Were they all that stupid???

John the Baptist- baptized the new believers in the river and so did the disciples of Christ. Finney followed their example.

 

[Light of the East]

John the Baptist- baptized the new believers in the river and so did the disciples of Christ. Finney followed their example.

Your statement misses the whole point of what baptism is. Baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenant sign and symbol by which we make covenant with God through Christ. In baptism we are united to Christ (Romans 6:3) and made an adopted child of God, entering into the covenant kingdom

That is not the pattern that Finney was following, which was the pattern established by the Apostles and followed for 1500 years until the Baptists decided they were smarter than the Apostles and changed it.

 

[7trees]

Your statement misses the whole point of what baptism is. Baptism has replaced circumcision as the covenant sign and symbol by which we make covenant with God through Christ. In baptism we are united to Christ (Romans 6:3) and made an adopted child of God, entering into the covenant kingdom

That is not the pattern that Finney was following, which was the pattern established by the Apostles and followed for 1500 years until the Baptists decided they were smarter than the Apostles and changed it.

I understand baptism and I read Finney who said that in evangelism, if the Holy Spirit convicts and saves souls then a pattern similar to the gospels should be used. Finney connected repentance with faith and faith with a public declaration and baptism. Yet, who really is like the apostles to day in method or ministry?

 

[redleghunter]

That is not "believer's baptism," the fond invention of the mid-1800's revivalist types such as Charles Grandison Finney. You are trying to read into the verse that which is not there.

And if that is what was meant, then why didn't the first Christians perform "believer's baptism?" Why did it take almost 1900 years to be discovered if this is what this verse meant? Were they all that stupid???

The NT witness is hearing, call to repentance, believing the message, Baptism.

Acts 2: KJV


22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



In case of Acts 10 much clearer on what is happening. Same as in Acts 2 however the 'hearers' and 'believers' receive the Holy Spirit prior to Baptism:

Acts 10: KJV

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)

37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.