Could an atheist go to heaven?

[Light of the East]

What is the point, you already know everything anyhow right....

At 67, one can come to know a great deal, but certainly not everything. When one has made a long spiritual journey, stopping at various ports of call and learning what they teach, one learns their teaching. Then one can learn more when one finds out that the doctrines he has believed in are based on mistranslations of the Greek, poor exegesis, taking verses out of context, and flawed Christian history. It's all about the learning.

 

[dude99]

There is no such language in the Bible. I find no such wording as "accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior." A man-made construct which began in the 1850's.

The concept of "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior" means that you have to first accept the fact that, as a human, you are by nature a sinner and have sinned within your lifetime. by saying with words (i.e. a confession) that you have sinned you are accepting this. knowing that Jesus died on the cross and suffered all of Hell's fury for our sins despite that fact that he was sinless, makes him our savior as he died a martyr. to accept him as your personal savior you must believe with your whole heart that this is fully true and that only through Him, Jesus Christ, and accepting this, can we reach heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

 

[South Bound]

Romans 2:12-16 implies that conscience, rather than religious belief, is enough to save someone (though you may interpret it as only applying to those who follow Christ who are not Jews).
Romans 9:15-18 also shows, to me at least, that God will have mercy on who ever He wishes - atheists included.
The God I follow is merciful and loving and would not condemn good people.

"The God I follow" being the operative words here.

The God you follow may not but the Bible says over and over that no one is good and anyone who dies in their sin will go to Hell.

 

[LionL]

"The God I follow" being the operative words here.

The God you follow may not but the Bible says over and over that no one is good and anyone who dies in their sin will go to Hell.

Then I fail to meet your standards as a Christian? Oh well...

 

[South Bound]

Then I fail to meet your standards as a Christian? Oh well...

Just telling you what the Bible says. If you don't like it then take it up with God. It's His Word.

 

[LionL]

Just telling you what the Bible says. If you don't like it then take it up with God. It's His Word.

He talks to me by other means as well as the Bible - and He loves atheists just as much as Bible-Bashers

 

[South Bound]

The concept of "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior" means that you have to first accept the fact that, as a human, you are by nature a sinner and have sinned within your lifetime. by saying with words (i.e. a confession) that you have sinned you are accepting this. knowing that Jesus died on the cross and suffered all of Hell's fury for our sins despite that fact that he was sinless, makes him our savior as he died a martyr. to accept him as your personal savior you must believe with your whole heart that this is fully true and that only through Him, Jesus Christ, and accepting this, can we reach heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Sorry, but he's right. The Bible tells us to repent and receive and submit to Jesus. It never tells us to "accept Jesus" (as if Jesus needs our acceptance). To the contrary, the Bible says it is Jesus' prerogative to accept or reject us.

All the whole "Jesus is so lonely. Won't you please accept Him as your personal Lord and Savior" thing does is create false converts.

 

[South Bound]

He talks to me by other means as well as the Bible - and He loves atheists just as much as Bible-Bashers

Sorry, but there's no such thing as extra-Biblical revelation and if whatever is talking to you is contradicting the Bible like you just demonstrated, that's not of God.

 

[LionL]

Sorry, but there's no such thing as extra-Biblical revelation

I disagree
[quoye]if whatever is talking to you is contradicting the Bible like you just demonstrated, that's not of God.[/QUOTE]
I disagree again. Does God never 'speak' to you or do you only accept what is in the Bible - rejecting everything else?

 

[South Bound]

I disagree

Then, once again, your argument is with God and not with me.

I disagree again. Does God never 'speak' to you or do you only accept what is in the Bible - rejecting everything else?

Yep. He speaks to me just like He speaks to all Christians through His Word, just like He said He would.

 

[Light of the East]

The concept of "accepting Jesus as your personal Savior" means that you have to first accept the fact that, as a human, you are by nature a sinner and have sinned within your lifetime. by saying with words (i.e. a confession) that you have sinned you are accepting this. knowing that Jesus died on the cross and suffered all of Hell's fury for our sins despite that fact that he was sinless, makes him our savior as he died a martyr. to accept him as your personal savior you must believe with your whole heart that this is fully true and that only through Him, Jesus Christ, and accepting this, can we reach heaven.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

I understand the concept, having been Protestant for 25 years. The problem is that it is not in the Bible nor in the history of the Christian faith. Until the 16th century and the Baptists, the biblical method of salvation was to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)

 

[Light of the East]

Then, once again, your argument is with God and not with me.
Yep. He speaks to me just like He speaks to all Christians through His Word, just like He said He would.

God speaks in any manner to people that He wishes to employ. Muslims in the Middle East are now coming to Christ because He is appearing to them in dreams and identifying Himself as the true God. He speaks through others when we are seeking His will. Others can guide us along the way with their helpful directions. He speaks through events that happen. Last year I was praying to find a parish to attend. I had a remarkable answer to that prayer that in no way involved the Bible. But it was a specific answer to a specific prayer.

Of course, the real challenge for you is that there is nowhere in the Bible that Jesus instructed His disciples to write down everything He said and teach it to others. For the first four centuries, there wasn't even a canon of Scripture. Everything was passed on by word of mouth.

Sola Scriptura is not biblical

 

[South Bound]

I understand the concept, having been Protestant for 25 years. The problem is that it is not in the Bible nor in the history of the Christian faith. Until the 16th century and the Baptists, the biblical method of salvation was to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38)

Actually, this is yet another Catholic lie about us. Historically, until the middle of the 20th century Baptists had a Reformed view of soteriology which would preclude decisional regeneration. The idea of "accepting Jesus" actually began in the mid-late 19th century with Charles Finney.

God speaks in any manner to people that He wishes to employ.

And He has told us that He speaks through His Word. And even if you believe He gives extra-Biblical revelation, the Bible is still the objective and authoritative standard one must use to judge those alleged extra-Biblical revelations.

Muslims in the Middle East are now coming to Christ because He is appearing to them in dreams and identifying Himself as the true God.

No, they're not. The Bible says that men are saved by the preaching of the Word of God, not by having dreams.

Last year I was praying to find a parish to attend. I had a remarkable answer to that prayer that in no way involved the Bible.

Yeah, that part I absolutely believe. The Bible had nothing to do with your finding a Catholic church.

Of course, the real challenge for you is that there is nowhere in the Bible that Jesus instructed His disciples to write down everything He said and teach it to others. For the first four centuries, there wasn't even a canon of Scripture. Everything was passed on by word of mouth.

First of all, your circular reasoning and ignorance of our religion isn't a challenge for me at all. Your argument. Your problem.



Second, the books of the Bible existed and were already recognized as inspired scripture long before the 4th century.

Sola Scriptura is not biblical

Then your argument is with the Word of God, which repeatedly teaches the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura, and with the ECFs, who affirmed the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura

 

[Basil the Great]

For those of you who insist that "accepting Jesus as a personal Savior" is necessary for salvation, where does this leave the hundreds of millions of Christians who lived and died before such a concept originated?

 

[South Bound]

For those of you who insist that "accepting Jesus as a personal Savior" is necessary for salvation, where does this leave the hundreds of millions of Christians who lived and died before such a concept originated?

Good question. Up until the late 19th century evangelists followed the Biblical model which is repent receive and submit.

And the Church seemed to get along just fine without the Finney-ist model.

 

[JoeP222w]

And you would be ..... wrong.

You have taken those verses out of context. Go back and read them in the context in which they were written. St. Paul is quoting Psalm 14, which is talking about the wicked. When you read Psalm 14, you will see a contrast made between the wicked (described in Romans 3) and the righteous.

Now go find a concordance and look up all the times in the OT and NT that God declares certain people righteous. Abel was righteous. (Heb. 11:4) Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous (Luke 1:5).

Plenty of people existed whom God declared righteous in the Bible, so there must be a different meaning to what you have taken out of context there.

They were righteous because of their faith in God, not because of anything in and of themselves.

You have not proven how I took that out of context.

In Psalm 14, the Psalmist refers to the children of man (i.e. every single person that has ever existed). No one is a child of God by default. Jesus said you must be born again, adopted by God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[JoeP222w]

And you would be ..... wrong.

You have taken those verses out of context. Go back and read them in the context in which they were written. St. Paul is quoting Psalm 14, which is talking about the wicked. When you read Psalm 14, you will see a contrast made between the wicked (described in Romans 3) and the righteous.

Now go find a concordance and look up all the times in the OT and NT that God declares certain people righteous. Abel was righteous. (Heb. 11:4) Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous (Luke 1:5).

Plenty of people existed whom God declared righteous in the Bible, so there must be a different meaning to what you have taken out of context there.

Are you thus calling God a liar?

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[rjs330]

And you would be wrong - according to the Bible.

I do have to say that this is kind of a trick question. It is not nuanced enough.

Unbelievers can go to heaven according to Romans 2: 13-16. Scripture there speaks of the mysterious working of the Holy Spirit in the conscience of the one who has not heard, and if the one who has not heard obeys that voice of the Holy Spirit in his conscience, the mercy of God extends to him also.

But they are unbelievers who have never heard of Christ, His work on the Cross, and the love of God.

However, there is another class of unbelievers, those who have been given the message and who have and continue to reject it. For them, there is neither excuse nor hope.

Honestly, I do wish our Holy Father would be a little more precise in his public discourses.

I think you have missed the mark here. An atheist will never see heaven. And the reason is contained withing the scriptures you mention. Note particularly the wording in verse 15. "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts"

What are the requirements of the law? Jesus said the law is contained within "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." I won't go into part 2 right now. But part 1 is necessary to fulfill the law. Atheists do not believe in God nor do they love him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, thus failing to fulfill the law. I do believe that their will be those that can be saved, who have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think Paul speaks of that in Romans. People are without excuse because Gods power and majesty is written in nature. So, if a person who has never heard of Jesus, but he/she knows that there is a God and strives to love him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength and goes on to try and fulfill part 2 which is to fulfill Gods commands on how to treat each other, then I think that they could be saved. In Hebrews the writer speaks of righteousness by faith. Faith in God, the real God. Not an idol. An atheist doesn't believe and so it cannot be counted as righteousness. He cannot fulfill the law in his heart.

The law is so much more that just doing good. It is believing in God as your only God. That's why it's so difficult to get into heaven. People really want to get their on their own terms by their own works without believing and loving God on the way.

 

[Light of the East]

Actually, this is yet another Catholic lie about us. Historically, until the middle of the 20th century Baptists had a Reformed view of soteriology which would preclude decisional regeneration. The idea of "accepting Jesus" actually began in the mid-late 19th century with Charles Finney.

Yes, that's true. Nice to see that someone else knows the beginning of revivalism and "accepting Jaaaaaayzuz." Still, the point is that your Baptist beliefs were not the belief of the first century Church. All the writings of the first preachers in Christianity, along with the principles of making covenant which carried over from the Old Covenant to the New, show us that one is baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and to become united to Christ (Romans 6:3)

And He has told us that He speaks through His Word. And even if you believe He gives extra-Biblical revelation, the Bible is still the objective and authoritative standard one must use to judge those alleged extra-Biblical revelations.

So what do we do about the first four centuries when they didn't have a Bible? How did people become Christians then? Are Paul's revelations not valid, seeing that they came outside of him reading the Bible? What of all the things that Jesus taught and did that were not recorded in a written form? Are they something that was utterly worthless to the first century believers, or were they passed on by word of mouth?

No, they're not. The Bible says that men are saved by the preaching of the Word of God, not by having dreams.

So now you are the judge and jury of how God deals with people, especially those who do not have the Bible in their countries because the Bible is prohibited? How nice of you to tell God how to save people.

Yeah, that part I absolutely believe. The Bible had nothing to do with your finding a Catholic church.

The Bible had everything to do with my finding the Catholic faith. As I studied it, I began to realize that it was a certain set of interpretations which I believed in. How could I know which of the hundreds of different Protestant doctrines were correct? Then I found out that the Early Church was specifically Catholic in their understanding of the Bible. The more I compared what the first Christians believed with today's myriad of beliefs, I realized that it was only the Orthodox and the Catholics who can rightly claim to be practicing what the Apostles taught.

That was all fine and good, but I had to be sure. The key to properly understanding the Bible is the Covenant of God. Only Catholic and Orthodox theology fits the covenant paradigm. The principles taught in the Bible regarding the covenant are found in Catholicism.

I did not find them in any form of Protestantism. In some way or the other, every Protestant assembly breaks these principles somewhere in their teaching and doctrines.

Once I understood that, there was only one place I could go. Well, two actually, but I chose Catholicism.

 

[Light of the East]

People are without excuse because Gods power and majesty is written in nature. So, if a person who has never heard of Jesus, but he/she knows that there is a God and strives to love him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength and goes on to try and fulfill part 2 which is to fulfill Gods commands on how to treat each other, then I think that they could be saved.

Right. And what you have written above is what I believe. I don't believe that salvation can be turned down by people who have heard the Gospel and for them to still expect eternal life, but Romans 2: 13-16 teaches exactly what you posted above....striving to know God in ignorance and being obedient to the law of God placed in the heart.

God is merciful. Most men are not.