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Convince me of Continuationism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    I'd have thought the go-to argument was something along the lines of: The Bible tells us how to use these gifts and gives no indication that they should or will cease so they should be continuous.

    Also despite the claims of cessationism, there is plenty of evidence of miraculous gifts throughout Christian history (I'd recommend 'There is a River' by David Allen but it is likely out of print. You could also try 'From Pentecost to Pentecostalism' by Steven Jenkins which is available on Kindle, but I haven't read it - I just know the author who was a colleague of the aforementioned David Allen).
     
  2. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Did you? I'm not allowed in the "sign gifts" section.

    But your posts here would not have encouraged me to look there anyway.
     
  3. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I'll bear that in mind in future.
     
  4. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Exactly.

    There's also the fact that Cessationists are all 100% in agreement that the office of pastor and teacher still continues.
     
  5. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Thus proving my point
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Maybe it's rather that they are still waiting for the "proof" that they were told could be provided and not just stories alleging that miraculous things supposedly have happened, so "trust us on that."
     
  7. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    What solid piece of evidence are you looking for. Having been in and out of the charismatic and pentecostal churches for over 30 years I've seen copious amounts of people prophesying, giving words of wisdom and knowledge, speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues (which seem primarily to be the contentious gifts).

    As someone who has studied some history of the subject there is evidence that these gifts have continuously been used throughout time, though at times the usage is very small.
     
  8. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by proof? A mathematical equation that proves that the gifts continue... or testimony of numerous people explaining what happened to them or to someone they know.... i.e. "witnessed or experienced personally"
     
  9. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    Now you're just mixing up and intertwining conversations. That post was about biblical backing for prophecy, not proof of miracles.

    I have proof of miracles... it doesn't change anything for those who want to argue, never has, even for Jesus.
     
  10. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Didn't people do that there on that thread? Why bring it up again? Was there insufficient argument given?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Well, I did say that the other one was not the only response that gets given.

    But the one you've just restated--although commonly heard--seems even weaker. The fact that the Bible does not state explicitly that these gifts will end someday, or will end when their function is no longer needed, doesn't seem necessary to say at all.

    They once were important to the church. We know why that is. We also know that it succeeded. Because the church DID prosper against all odds (one of history's great success stories, by the way) we have no reason to wonder that, after awhile, they no longer had the place in the life of the church that they once did.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  12. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Are the terms fallible and infallible used much. I certainly never came across them when I was studying Pentecostalism. There was the distinction between General and Special Revelation (I was going to say Relativity there...:)).
     
  13. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    Given that your Anglican church has drifted so deeply into unbelief and deception, its not surprising there has been no witness of the gifts. Meanwhile, throughout history, many other church groups continued to see them.

    Remember, absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence!
    Its just that your history is wrong.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    The floor's wide open. Whatever proof anyone wants to present. All I'm saying is that it was claimed that cessationists won't believe even in the face of proof, so where's the proof?

    That's an allegation, or one man's perception of the meaning of something he saw.

    Which, if true--and it is not proven to actually be true--would verify the position argued by the cessationists, not the continuationists.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Proof is irrefutable evidence. To say that the speaker saw (or heard of) someone who raised the dead to life or was speaking French is not proof of anything.
     
  16. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    I agree and the fact that the Bible does not explicitly say that they will end is good reason to suppose that they shouldn't end. Hence Continuationism. It seems to me that it is the Cessationists who need to make a case as to
    a) why the gifts should cease when the reading of 1 Co 12-14 indicates that there was no expectation for ceasing (i.e. why send a letter explaining how to use a spiritual gift that would only be around for another decade or two).
    b) why the gifts didn't actually cease when they were supposed to (evidence of gift usage can be found throughout history - generally in fringe groups until the beginning of the 20th century).
     
  17. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Yes that's completely different from the historical, accurate and biblical accounts of miracles, signs and wonders we see from Scripture with Jesus and the Apostles. Those individual gifts no longer exist but died out with the Apostles in the 1st Century.
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Let's say it a more accurate way. I was drawing from several different comments that have already been posted and, presumably, read by the readers here.

    But you wrote that you are dismayed or perplexed or just plain surprised that that they are not convinced of your POV after allegedly being given proof.

    And yet, you're not about to present any of that proof to us?
     
  19. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    So just this past weekend I had a young man come into church. He brought with him a notebook with some thoughts and ideas on a new business he was considering starting. He came to church planning on approaching me after service and asking me to pray with him about this plan and if he should pursue it. They came in late, during worship, so I didn't have any chance to even greet him before service. During worship another person and myself together felt the Lord had a prophetic word for him which we both released over him. In it we prophesied that God had new business ideas for him, that the things he had written down where of the Lord. We even unknowingly prophesied the name he had settled on. It wasn't until after service that he excitedly came up to me and showed me the notebook and told me how he was going to ask for prayer about this... but apparently he already got it.

    Now for someone simply reading this to critique, it is easily dismissed. That isn't "proof". How do we know [fill in the blank criticism]? But, for that young man? It was a powerful personal experience with God that was undeniable AND completely in line with scripture. And that's how God works, how Jesus worked when He was walking the Earth... through personal relationship. That personal relationship will always line up with scripture, and the gifts do. That man has his proof and no one can take that away from him. However, arguing scripture on the internet? There's nothing personal about that. God said to ask, seek, knock and He'd be there... but it is up to us to do the asking, seeking and knocking. Is it any wonder that those who don't want to believe in miracles, and therefore don't seek them, would then not find them?
     
  20. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Well the evidence is there. All it needs is evaluation.

    And experienced as well. Having spoken in tongues, prophesied, spoken words of wisdom, interpreted tongues and had words of knowledge (in addition to the other 1 Co 12 gifts), I have all the evidence I need. Having read the scriptures, I'm quite happy that this is normal activity in the church.

    And arguing that it is 'one' man's perception when you have already mentioned others who have had similar experiences seems a bit odd.

    Do you and I have different ideas of cessationism and continuationism then?

    My understanding was that cessationists insist that the spiritual gifts such as tongues ended with the apostolic era.... so when I say that there has been continuous evidence of the application of such gifts, it would seem to be the complete opposite of what cessationists say.
     
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