Convince me of Continuationism.

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Hmm. It seems to be the 'go-to' argument used in the threads here that have dealt with the topic. It's not the only argument, of course.

I'd have thought the go-to argument was something along the lines of: The Bible tells us how to use these gifts and gives no indication that they should or will cease so they should be continuous.

Also despite the claims of cessationism, there is plenty of evidence of miraculous gifts throughout Christian history (I'd recommend 'There is a River' by David Allen but it is likely out of print. You could also try 'From Pentecost to Pentecostalism' by Steven Jenkins which is available on Kindle, but I haven't read it - I just know the author who was a colleague of the aforementioned David Allen).

 

[Radagast]

Also incorrect. I wrote a long post on here in the sign gifts section breaking this very thing down.

Did you? I'm not allowed in the "sign gifts" section.

But your posts here would not have encouraged me to look there anyway.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Most of what Keener describes seems to be miracles following prayer (C.S. Lewis also describes a case of this). But, for the umpteenth time, Cessationists believe in that, so it's not germane.

Some of what Keener describes goes beyond miracles following prayer, and fits in with the sort of "soft Cessationism" that accepts "sign gifts" in the mission field.

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind in future.

 

[Radagast]

That isn't the issue. The Magi brought gifts to the stable where the baby Jesus lay. Are we to consider gold and incense to be "gifts of the Holy Spirit" also?

No. While the word itself can be used in several different ways, this doesn't mean that those gifts which are listed in Scripture as the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" AND WHICH ARE OF A QUITE DIFFERENT CHARACTER from placing a person in the role of teacher or missionary or church administrator are somehow the same.

Exactly.

There's also the fact that Cessationists are all 100% in agreement that the office of pastor and teacher still continues.

 

[topher694]

Did you? I'm not allowed in the "sign gifts" section.

But your posts here would not have encouraged me to look there anyway.

Thus proving my point

 

[Albion]

...a series explaining prophecy and full of Biblical arguments. You know what? Hardly anyone looks at that. You know why? Most people don't care to learn, they only care about being right.

Maybe it's rather that they are still waiting for the "proof" that they were told could be provided and not just stories alleging that miraculous things supposedly have happened, so "trust us on that."

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Oh, they are asking questions.

But you have to admit that there has been some really large-scale fakery in some of the more unfortunate corners of Pentecostalism. That reinforces the scepticism of the sceptics.

It's also interesting that not one solid piece of evidence for "sign gifts" has been presented on this thread. Lot's of "you're so bad for being sceptics" and lots of deflection to other topics, but no solid evidence at all.

What solid piece of evidence are you looking for. Having been in and out of the charismatic and pentecostal churches for over 30 years I've seen copious amounts of people prophesying, giving words of wisdom and knowledge, speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues (which seem primarily to be the contentious gifts).

As someone who has studied some history of the subject there is evidence that these gifts have continuously been used throughout time, though at times the usage is very small.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I, for one, will be won over if proof is provided.

So far, none has been. Lots of tales about things someone said they witnessed or experienced personally, but that's not proof of anything.

What do you mean by proof? A mathematical equation that proves that the gifts continue... or testimony of numerous people explaining what happened to them or to someone they know.... i.e. "witnessed or experienced personally"

 

[topher694]

Maybe it's rather that they are still waiting for the "proof" that they were told could be provided and not just stories alleging that miraculous things supposedly have happened, so "trust us on that."

Now you're just mixing up and intertwining conversations. That post was about biblical backing for prophecy, not proof of miracles.

I have proof of miracles... it doesn't change anything for those who want to argue, never has, even for Jesus.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I am looking for a sincere explanation WITH SCRIPTURE to not only give a rebuttal to the points I made in the Cessationist thread link I provided in the OP, but I am looking for sound apologetics WITH SCRIPTURE to defend Continuationism.

Didn't people do that there on that thread? Why bring it up again? Was there insufficient argument given?

 

[Albion]

I'd have thought the go-to argument was something along the lines of: The Bible tells us how to use these gifts and gives no indication that they should or will cease so they should be continuous.

Well, I did say that the other one was not the only response that gets given.

But the one you've just restated--although commonly heard--seems even weaker. The fact that the Bible does not state explicitly that these gifts will end someday, or will end when their function is no longer needed, doesn't seem necessary to say at all.

They once were important to the church. We know why that is. We also know that it succeeded. Because the church DID prosper against all odds (one of history's great success stories, by the way) we have no reason to wonder that, after awhile, they no longer had the place in the life of the church that they once did.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Which is why most modern Continuationists say that infallible NT prophecy has ceased, but fallible NT prophecy has continued.

Personally, I see no evidence in the NT of a "gift of fallible prophecy." It also seems like a pretty useless gift. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 indicates that fallible "prophets" should be put to death.



That fits in with this "doctrine of fallible prophecy." It allows "prophets" to be wrong without any real accountability.

Are the terms fallible and infallible used much. I certainly never came across them when I was studying Pentecostalism. There was the distinction between General and Special Revelation (I was going to say Relativity there...).

 

[Francis Drake]

The case for cessationism is based on the fact that they did cease to be a feature of Christ's church at some point in the past.

The case for continuationism, at least as it has been made on these forums before, is based on saying "No, Christ promised that that would not happen so history must be wrong, no matter what the evidence is."

Which of those seems the more compelling argument?

Given that your Anglican church has drifted so deeply into unbelief and deception, its not surprising there has been no witness of the gifts. Meanwhile, throughout history, many other church groups continued to see them.

Remember, absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence!
Its just that your history is wrong.

 

[Albion]

What solid piece of evidence are you looking for.

The floor's wide open. Whatever proof anyone wants to present. All I'm saying is that it was claimed that cessationists won't believe even in the face of proof, so where's the proof?

Having been in and out of the charismatic and pentecostal churches for over 30 years I've seen copious amounts of people prophesying, giving words of wisdom and knowledge, speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues (which seem primarily to be the contentious gifts).

That's an allegation, or one man's perception of the meaning of something he saw.

As someone who has studied some history of the subject there is evidence that these gifts have continuously been used throughout time, though at times the usage is very small.

Which, if true--and it is not proven to actually be true--would verify the position argued by the cessationists, not the continuationists.

 

[Albion]

What do you mean by proof? A mathematical equation that proves that the gifts continue... or testimony of numerous people explaining what happened to them or to someone they know.... i.e. "witnessed or experienced personally"

Proof is irrefutable evidence. To say that the speaker saw (or heard of) someone who raised the dead to life or was speaking French is not proof of anything.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Well, I did say that the other one was not the only response that gets given.

But the one you've just restated--although commonly heard--seems even weaker. The fact that the Bible does not state explicitly that these gifts will end someday, or will end when their function is no longer needed, doesn't seem necessary to say at all.

I agree and the fact that the Bible does not explicitly say that they will end is good reason to suppose that they shouldn't end. Hence Continuationism. It seems to me that it is the Cessationists who need to make a case as to
a) why the gifts should cease when the reading of 1 Co 12-14 indicates that there was no expectation for ceasing (i.e. why send a letter explaining how to use a spiritual gift that would only be around for another decade or two).
b) why the gifts didn't actually cease when they were supposed to (evidence of gift usage can be found throughout history - generally in fringe groups until the beginning of the 20th century).

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Proof is irrefutable evidence. To say that the speaker saw (or heard of) someone who raised the dead to life or was speaking French is not proof of anything.

Yes that's completely different from the historical, accurate and biblical accounts of miracles, signs and wonders we see from Scripture with Jesus and the Apostles. Those individual gifts no longer exist but died out with the Apostles in the 1st Century.

 

[Albion]

Now you're just mixing up and intertwining conversations.

Let's say it a more accurate way. I was drawing from several different comments that have already been posted and, presumably, read by the readers here.

I have proof of miracles... it doesn't change anything for those who want to argue, never has, even for Jesus.

But you wrote that you are dismayed or perplexed or just plain surprised that that they are not convinced of your POV after allegedly being given proof.

And yet, you're not about to present any of that proof to us?

 

[topher694]

So just this past weekend I had a young man come into church. He brought with him a notebook with some thoughts and ideas on a new business he was considering starting. He came to church planning on approaching me after service and asking me to pray with him about this plan and if he should pursue it. They came in late, during worship, so I didn't have any chance to even greet him before service. During worship another person and myself together felt the Lord had a prophetic word for him which we both released over him. In it we prophesied that God had new business ideas for him, that the things he had written down where of the Lord. We even unknowingly prophesied the name he had settled on. It wasn't until after service that he excitedly came up to me and showed me the notebook and told me how he was going to ask for prayer about this... but apparently he already got it.

Now for someone simply reading this to critique, it is easily dismissed. That isn't "proof". How do we know [fill in the blank criticism]? But, for that young man? It was a powerful personal experience with God that was undeniable AND completely in line with scripture. And that's how God works, how Jesus worked when He was walking the Earth... through personal relationship. That personal relationship will always line up with scripture, and the gifts do. That man has his proof and no one can take that away from him. However, arguing scripture on the internet? There's nothing personal about that. God said to ask, seek, knock and He'd be there... but it is up to us to do the asking, seeking and knocking. Is it any wonder that those who don't want to believe in miracles, and therefore don't seek them, would then not find them?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

The floor's wide open. Whatever proof anyone wants to present. All I'm saying is that it was claimed that cessationists won't believe even in the face of proof, so where's the proof?

Well the evidence is there. All it needs is evaluation.

That's an allegation, or one man's perception of the meaning of something he saw.

And experienced as well. Having spoken in tongues, prophesied, spoken words of wisdom, interpreted tongues and had words of knowledge (in addition to the other 1 Co 12 gifts), I have all the evidence I need. Having read the scriptures, I'm quite happy that this is normal activity in the church.

And arguing that it is 'one' man's perception when you have already mentioned others who have had similar experiences seems a bit odd.

Which, if true--and it is not proven to actually be true--would verify the position argued by the cessationists, not the continuationists.

Do you and I have different ideas of cessationism and continuationism then?

My understanding was that cessationists insist that the spiritual gifts such as tongues ended with the apostolic era.... so when I say that there has been continuous evidence of the application of such gifts, it would seem to be the complete opposite of what cessationists say.