• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Convince me of Continuationism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,028
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am on the fence between Cessationism and Continuationism.
    While I lean more towards Cessationism, I do consider the possibility that Continuationism could be true. My biblical case for Cessationism can be found here:

    Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

    Can you rebuttal the points I made in this thread?
    Can you also make a good case for Continuationism?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

    +10,473
    United States
    Catholic
    Married
    US-American-Solidarity
    Sorry. Never heard of 'continuationism'. What is it?
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +29,451
    Anglican
    Married
    The case for cessationism is based on the fact that they did cease to be a feature of Christ's church at some point in the past.

    The case for continuationism, at least as it has been made on these forums before, is based on saying "No, Christ promised that that would not happen so history must be wrong, no matter what the evidence is."

    Which of those seems the more compelling argument?
     
  4. Tigger45

    Tigger45 “Be still and know that I am God.” Supporter

    +10,930
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Basically continuationism is the teaching that the miracles, signs and wonders described in the Bible (particularly in the NT) are still present in the church.
     
  5. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    +3,439
    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Single
    Sure

    You quoted the 1 Corinthains 13

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

    12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.



    1A) I think it is a hard case to make that the perfect has come. Some people claim it is the full canon of scripture etc. and that itself is another claim that is hard to make (We have had the full canon of scripture for 1600 years and all kinds of problems)

    1B)) Verses 11 and 12 I think point to what my interpretation of the passage, is the "perfect" refers to when we enter "The life to come", "paradise", full Communion with God. It is very easy to make a case that the Gifts are rendered obsolete in that instance. e.g. healing is not needed when you have a perfect, eternal glorified body.



    2) Continuationism also does not necessarily equate to endorsing the Charismatic movement., Pentecostalism etc. even though it does get lumped in with that by some people. All it means is that the Supernatural aspects of the Bible as far as miracles etc. have not officially ended etc.



    3) The History of Cessiationism is another strike against it. This was never something taught by Christians historically speaking. Saint Augustine speculated that it might be true at one time in his life because their were few reports of miracles in his day, but Cessationism did not become a thing until a Roman Catholic Apologist debated John Calvin, and John Calvin invented it to get around that he and some of the Reformers did not have miracles to validate their ministry.



    4) I would actually point to the question of strict Scriptural constructionism. If you are a Protestant Sola Scriptura etc. is suppose to be important even necessary. Aren't things suppose to be established in the presence of "2 or 3 witnesses"? There are a lot of reasons why 1 Corinthians 13 does not qualify, but even if it did that is only one passage.....

    On the positive end, I can make a case on why things should be in effect based on things like 1) the nature of God, 2) the nature of Church, 3) that we have not entered perfection, the life to come etc. yet.

    People tend to base their belief on Cessasionism on experience rather than scripture....


    Well that is what I got so far.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Well, it does, actually.

    Cessationists believe that you can still have miracles, and you can still pray for miraculous healing.

    What Cessationists claim is that the spiritual "sign gifts" (prophecy, healing and other miracles, and tongues) described in the NT have ceased.
     
  7. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    +3,439
    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Single
    Well their seem to be different types and nuances. I was raised in a Cessionist Lutheran church, that believed that miracles "died out with the apostles" and they basically had no hope or Faith for any kind of a miraculous answer to prayer. And I've seen that a lot.


    Lately, I have been watching some Calvinist Apologetics folks who go after the TV preachers etc. and they are a lot more nuanced in believing you can still have miracles via Faith etc. even though gifts like healing, which they define as "doing something by command" is not around anymore.
     
  8. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Even the strongest Cessationists I know would never say that.

    God can give a miraculous answer to prayer any time He wants to.

    What has changed, according to Cessationists, is that I can't have the gift in speaking a language I never learned (like Swahili), and I can't have the gift of (infallible) prophecy, and I do not have the authority to say to you "be healed of your disease!"
     
  9. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    +3,439
    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Single
    It's not always what they say... its the nonverbal and contextual stuff and the fact that if they pray for you when you are sick, the best they can muster is asking God to guide the hand of the surgeon, give wisdom to the doctor etc. And the notion that maybe you could just spontaneously be healed via the grace of God never enters their minds, being something too big for them to hope for....
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  10. Tigger45

    Tigger45 “Be still and know that I am God.” Supporter

    +10,930
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Seems to me that Cessationist particularly frown upon speaking in tongues and prophesying.
     
  11. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    I guess that the Cessationist/Continuationist debate is happening between groups that share a "big" view of God's activity in the world.
     
  12. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Those, and people claiming to have the power to heal.

    Of course, apart from theological arguments, all three of those can be criticised on other grounds: the "tongues" do not actually seem to be as described in Acts 2:7-11; the "prophecies" often turn out to be false; and the "healings" are also disappointing when you dig into them.
     
  13. Olmhinlu

    Olmhinlu Well-Known Member

    +1,324
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    What is your answer to that question?
     
  14. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    +3,439
    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Single
    Well your view is more nuanced..... I was raised in a Cessionist Lutheran church, Wisconsin synod. The line was that miracles, prophesy etc. went out with the apostles, or the death of the last apostle. Besides not really citing any scripture for that claim, you can disprove that claim with some of the ancient writings like the Didache, which show that prophesy out lived the original apostles.....

    http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~tim/study/DidacheAndProphets.pdf
     
  15. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

    +2,163
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Wow, what a completely dishonest representation of the side you don't ascribe to.

    In my experience the foundation of cessationism is dishonesty and discrediting. They simply cannot allow for anyone to actually have seen or experienced a true miracle or sign it would shatter their believe system. Therefore anyone who "claims" (they love that word) to have experienced one is discredited, called a liar or marginalized (as demonstrated above). Whereas continuationsim simply believes God still does now what He did before... just like He plainly stated He would. It actually believes people when they glorify God and testify to what He's done in their lives. I see it first hand all the time.

    Now which of those seems more in line with Jesus?
     
  16. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +5,358
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Jas 5
    13Is any one of you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail.

    Surely if your theology denies these simple scriptures you will not be likely to see healing and you will take this as evidence of your 'correct' theology.

    Is this not a circular sadness founded in unbelief...

    When the church looses His power through compromise - the gifts cease.

    When simple folk revisit the word in simplicity and faith - they read and believe once again and His healing grace returns.
     
  17. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Cessationists do not deny these Scriptures. That is simply false.

    And James 5 is not talking about "sign gifts," it's talking about prayer. Cessationists can, and do, pray for miraculous healing.

    Like I said, Cessationists do not deny those Scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  18. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    Not really. It's easy to say "Oh good, they continued after all!"

    And indeed, there are a lot of "Soft Cessationists" who believe that the "sign gifts" might still occur in distant mission fields. That is, they are open to the possibility.

    The TV has shown us so many false "prophecies," so many fake "healings," and so many "tongues" that are not tongues.

    You must admit that a degree of scepticism is unsurprising.

    And it really doesn't help when the Cessationist asking for evidence is accused of being un-Christian.
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +5,358
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    When did you last pray for someone and see them healed?
     
  20. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    +9,598
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    A few weeks ago.
     
Loading...