Convince me of Continuationism.

[nolidad]

I am on the fence between Cessationism and Continuationism.
While I lean more towards Cessationism, I do consider the possibility that Continuationism could be true. My biblical case for Cessationism can be found here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Can you rebuttal the points I made in this thread?
Can you also make a good case for Continuationism?

It takes a lot of horse trading with Scripture to come to the conclusion that the gifts you mentioned have ceased. I am in a denomination that generally believes in cessationism but I do not! There is nothing in Corinthians or Ephesians (where all teh gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the church are listed) to say that some cease and some continue!

I have heard many arguments but they just don't make sense! Jesus said that the church would do greater works than He did (greater in more) I have seen exprcisms, miraculous healings ( I have had 2).
Tongues is still valid as it is for the edification of the church. It is also the most misunderstood and abused and misused gift there is.

Teh question should be, what Biblical evidence is there that any of teh gifts should have ceased at all? If tongues, interpretations, miracles have ceased, then why not hospitality, administration, pastor-teachers, prophets etc. Once again the bible does not say any gifts would cease.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It takes a lot of horse trading with Scripture to come to the conclusion that the gifts you mentioned have ceased. I am in a denomination that generally believes in cessationism but I do not! There is nothing in Corinthians or Ephesians (where all teh gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the church are listed) to say that some cease and some continue!

I have heard many arguments but they just don't make sense! Jesus said that the church would do greater works than He did (greater in more) I have seen exprcisms, miraculous healings ( I have had 2).
Tongues is still valid as it is for the edification of the church. It is also the most misunderstood and abused and misused gift there is.

Teh question should be, what Biblical evidence is there that any of teh gifts should have ceased at all? If tongues, interpretations, miracles have ceased, then why not hospitality, administration, pastor-teachers, prophets etc. Once again the bible does not say any gifts would cease.

I am looking for a more comprehensive biblical case for why a Christian would believe in Continuationism and not just a passage or two (Which could be taken out of context). I am open to Continuationism (even though I currently lean towards Cessationism).

If you are interested as to why I believe Cessationism has biblical merit, you can check out my biblical points here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

If you find that they do not have merit, then they each need to be explained with Scripture and an alternative biblical case needs to be made for Continuationism.

As for the greater works that Jesus said that we would do:

Well, this in my opinion actually proves Cessationism. For if we were to do greater works than Jesus, then we should be doing miracles that far outshine what He did during His earthly ministry. So what miracles have believers done that is greater than the miracles done by Jesus throughout history and today?

So what then are the greater works?

I believe these greater works would be loving God, and loving others (Including our enemies). These are the greater works. For Jesus' sacrificing his life for us was far greater than all of his miracles combined because it was a work of love that set out to save mankind.

 

[Tra Phull]

TELEIOS is the Greek word for PERFECT in the "ceasing" passage.

Paul had written that in his time "we prophesy in part" - and yet this is in the very era when even cessationists agree all the gifts were going full-blast.

The "THEN" when we will know face to face - that can't be when the NT is finished being written - things certainly are not complete, mature and perfect now that we have a New Testament completed.

 

[Word and Spirit]

I've heard of Jim Tolle. I can find no evidence that he ever raised anybody from the dead.

And raising people from the dead is such a big thing that you'd expect news coverage.

Before Jim was associated with Church On The Way in Van Nuys, California he was a missionary in Columbia. He got a call to the bedside of a man that was dying. It was a ways away and it took some time to get to his home, but he finally did and prayed for him, he opened his eyes and he was healed. They were all astounded because he had died over an hour before. Why you people think the news would be interested is beyond me. They are as skeptical as you are. And Jim didn't do it for publicity.

"Evidently"? In the mission field, people will routinely gather to listen to a visiting preacher they cannot understand.

In any case, there is no such language as "Taiwanese."

A businessman that was a member of our church took some teaching tapes of Jack to Taiwan. The men from Taiwan scoffed at the message until they heard on part of the tape Jack praying in tongues, and they understood every word. They stopped scoffing.

What will make you stop being an unbelieving scoffer?

That's not what his book says. His book says that he was merely interpreting the Prophetia Sancti Malachiae Archiepiscopi, de Summis Pontificibus.

In any case, Horn's prediction was wrong: he predicted a March 2012 resignation, and in fact Pope Benedict XVI resigned on 28 February 2013.

I may have gotten the dates wrong, but CNN was interested in interviewing him to find out who his "deep throat" was at the Vatican. They weren't interested any longer when Tom told them, God. I'm sure you recognize the mindset.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I agreed, but you are referring, I think, to the Church of England as was our friend. And you probably also have the Church of Ireland in mind. Those are two well-known Anglican churches out of hundreds of different and autonomous Anglican church bodies in the world.

I know and I also know that the Charismatic Movement exists worldwide in the Anglican Church, although I've only experienced UK & Ireland (and precious little of the latter).

The Anglican Church covers a wide array of thought and style from 'Bells and Smells' to absolute Charismatic. That would be my point. It is not the same as pointing at Pentecostalism or even Baptists (though there are spectrums there too).

 

[Tra Phull]

The Bible does say some gifts will cease - tongues, prophecy and knowledge, which AS A GIFT would seem to be WORD OF KNOWLEDGE.

There is no mention of HEALING being subject to ceasing.
There is no mention of the office of an APOSTLE being subject to ceasing.

Again, what is it that has COME since Paul wrote Corinthians that has us now seeing NOT through a glass darkly, but face to face?

 

[Word and Spirit]

Thank you.

Although I have never heard of 'continuationism' I guess I am a 'continuationalist'. The gifts of the Holy Spirit have ebbed and flowed but never ceased. There have been miracles here and there all along. St. Augustine noted the same issue.

The prophecy regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit was compared to the early and latter rain. Pentecost was the early rain, then the long mostly dry summer, and now the latter rain has fallen. Both the early and latter rain had to do with the beginning and ending of the covenant by Jesus. He's coming, probably within 10 years.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I'm sure that's so. You are convinced. However, our experiences convince us of the opposite.

In addition, we also have the record of the history of the church and its experiences to support our conclusion. If tongues, for instance, never had ceased, it would be almost an open and shut case for the continuationists, but because they did cease, the evidence (other than for personal feelings) goes the other way.

I'm sure that's so. You are convinced. However, our experiences convince us of the opposite.


Although to be fair I'd wonder at what experiences you have had that convince you of the opposite... by implication even atheists have had experiences of no speaking in tongues!

 

[Tra Phull]

I have heard cessationists claim that THE PERFECT came when the NT was finished - or some say "when the last apostle died" - or something else, but even if you raised a cessationist from the dead, would he still be seeing through a glass darkly?

 

[Tra Phull]

Simon the Sorcerer wanted to BUY the gift, and was told off by the Apostles.

This OP of "prove continuation to me" is kind of bogus.

If cessationism is true, they should be able to prove that THE PERFECT has come.

Which would mean we are now seeing things more clearly than St. Paul was when he wrote a big chunk of Scripture.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Among other things, that the spiritual gift of raising people from the dead has ceased.

If you are serious about facing the truth of this and not just holding onto theology - as recommended, read Craig Keaner as mentioned.

But this is something that Continuationists believe in. It's not relevant to the discussion.

So you bring the matter back to semantics - whatever is clearly the work of God in this age you claim does not involve gifts...

Does deliverance involve gifts? in your view?

Oh? Which ones?

What a ridiculous mocking question - there are at least three manifestations of tongues - one for personal edification that should not be exercised in public as it will not have translation - one for public sign for the unsaved that will - one for rebuke.
I am referring to the first - I can wake in the night and it flows out of my spirit expressing His intercession for me.


Which "Serbian war"?

You mean in our lifetime there has been more than one???

Get a life... If you dont understand and experience something - stop slagging it - it is offensive and definitely not loving.

I am opening my heart on these matters because I care about the readers missing out on the exciting life with Him that I have enjoyed at some cost. I have seen far too much to be put off by naysayers - you run the risk of attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to something else - please be very careful.

Sorry the dialogue is hard to follow - I have put my responses in Italics...

 

[Word and Spirit]

The change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12) shows that God is into changing things and not keeping things the same. The Old Covenant Law is no more (the 613) as a whole or package deal. So I do not see this as a good argument for Continuationism. A better argument would be Paul attaining perfection by entering Heaven and his knowing all things in Heaven vs. knowing in part while here on this Earth. But, I believe the “mirror” (i.e. KJV says “glass”) (in 1 Corinthians 13) is referred to as the Word of God in James 1:23, and so this fits the Cessationist view that the mirror is a representation of the communicated Word of God. For where is attaining knowledge in Heaven referenced as looking through a glass or mirror? Again, I am not trying to undermine the Continuationist position. I am merely seeing if it has Biblical merit or not.

It is called Covenant Theology, at least my knowledge of covenants, staying intact, and their signs is what I would call Covenant Theology. And yes, the mirror we see darkly through is the Word of God's knowledge of God given to us. But in heaven we will know God as thoroughly as He knows us now.

 

[Albion]

If cessationism is true, they should be able to prove that THE PERFECT has come.

I'm going to comment on that because I have heard it often enough from others.

No! All that a cessationist needs is certainty beyond a reasonable doubt that the gifts did not continue from the beginning to the present. That's not difficult to do.

All the Scripture references that the other side cites are taken by those people to be guarantees that what has happened cannot have happened. That, however, is a matter of interpretation and there are many different interpretations.

 

[Word and Spirit]

The change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12) shows that God is into changing things and not keeping things the same. The Old Covenant Law is no more (the 613) as a whole or package deal. So I do not see this as a good argument for Continuationism. A better argument would be Paul attaining perfection by entering Heaven and his knowing all things in Heaven vs. knowing in part while here on this Earth. But, I believe the “mirror” (i.e. KJV says “glass”) (in 1 Corinthians 13) is referred to as the Word of God in James 1:23, and so this fits the Cessationist view that the mirror is a representation of the communicated Word of God. For where is attaining knowledge in Heaven referenced as looking through a glass or mirror? Again, I am not trying to undermine the Continuationist position. I am merely seeing if it has Biblical merit or not.

What I would also say regarding your questioning is James 1:5. That is what I did a few years ago when I was learning about (on the forums) all these weird (to me) denominations I never knew anything about as far as what they taught. It got confusing. So I decided to drop all denominational pet doctrines and just ask God to teach me what every verse He wrote meant, as He was, after all, the Author. I totally believed that He would, and sure enough my knowledge exploded.

You do the same and ask God what you need to know about the gifts and if today's manifestations of gifts are from God. If you don't doubt, He'll answer you.

 

[Tra Phull]

BH, you say you are on the fence.
Do you want to get off the fence?

I hate to tell you this, but a discussion on a message board is not going to settle this for you.

You are going to have to have someone lay hands on you like the rest of us and receive the gift.

And then you still will come to messageboards for the rest of your life and read how others poo-poo what you then know is REAL.

But it will be worth it, because you will have SEEN THE ELEPHANT.

There is the story of blind men describing the elephant - you know - one touches it's tail - says "the elephant is like a rope!" - One touches it's side, says "The elephant is like a wall!" etc etc

See the elephant, BH.

 

[nolidad]

I am looking for a more comprehensive biblical case for why a Christian would believe in Continuationism and not just a passage or two (Which could be taken out of context). I am open to Continuationism (even though I currently lean towards Cessationism).

If you are interested as to why I believe Cessationism has biblical merit, you can check out my biblical points here:

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

If you find that they do not have merit, then they each need to be explained with Scripture and an alternative biblical case needs to be made for Continuationism.

As for the greater works that Jesus said that we would do:

Well, this in my opinion actually proves Cessationism. For if we were to do greater works than Jesus, then we should be doing miracles that far outshine what He did during His earthly ministry. So what miracles have believers done that is greater than the miracles done by Jesus throughout history and today?

So what then are the greater works?

I believe these greater works would be loving God, and loving others (Including our enemies). These are the greater works. For Jesus' sacrificing his life for us was far greater than all of his miracles combined because it was a work of love that set out to save mankind.

I did not read all of your lengthy apologetic.

But according to your first three posts, you say that the imperfect will cease (the charismatic gifts) when the perfect comes and that the perfect is the perfect law of Liberty! That took place t Pentecost when the church was infilled with the Holy Spirit! so then those gifts whould have never taken place.

Why would Paul spend time writing so much about tongues to Corinthians if He knew they were soon to pass?? Why would he encourage them all to speak in tongues, but to practice love more if it were soon to cease??

Paul did not infer once that it was asign for Jews, but a gift to edify the church like prophecy and miracles and healings!

I could write loads of philosophic reasons, but Scripture never once says they are imperfect or that it sets a time for them to cease. Prophecy will cease, faith will cease tongues will cease- but not yet!

 

[topher694]

I do not doubt that God can heal today, and that God healed your daughter. What we do not find today is a person who can touch people and they ALWAYS heal 100% of the time as a part of having the gift of healing. The apostles who healed were able to heal all that came to them during the time of the early church when they had that gift. Paul healed a whole bunch of people, but later in his life, and he even sent clothes to heal others. It did not appear he had this same ability later on in his life because he was recommending Timothy to drink a little wine in his water for the infirmities of his stomach. Paul did not send him a healing cloth so as to 100% cure his condition. This to me suggests the temporary nature of the gifts (Which was to confirm the Word).

This is a common bait & switch. Nowhere in the word does it say 100% success rate is required for it to be a gift. It's not in there. I'm well aware of the arguments, of language that says "all where healed" (there is a solid argument to be made that that language does NOT imply 100% success), and if so praise the Lord for that. But nowhere is that tied to the gifts. 1 Cor 12 does not say single thing about success rate. Jesus couldn't heal very much in His own home town, and if He is the standard....? Additionally the Bible most often focuses on what did happen, not what did not. On the Day of Pentecost 3000 people were saved... how may were not? It doesn't tell us. That doesn't mean it was 100% success rate in salvation. It seems pretty clear that is not the case. I think there is a powerful message in that: don't focus on those who reject the message, but focus on those who accept it. Same could be said for the gifts.

The gifts do not, nor did they ever confirm the Word, not in the way you imply here. The Word confirms itself, including the gifts. Jesus is the Word, He is still alive, which means the Word is still alive including the gifts.

 

[Tra Phull]

The gifts DO INDEED continue, @Albion.

Charismatics speak in tongues all over the world, this OCCURS, it happens.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How "shown?" As I recall, it was widely predicted and discussed in the media that this would be an almost certain consequence of Tito's death

I have absolutely no knowledge of that...

I had a vision in which I saw Western engineers going into Serbia and releasing the dead from behind grave stones six months before the war broke out. I contacted the Slavic Gospel mission to let them know.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the purpose of the gifts was to confirm that the Word was indeed from God. No such gifts are needed today to confirm the Bible as being true or from God.

Nonsense, the world needs that evidence more than ever...