Continuing research into the possibility of the reality of the Exodus, and current data/conclusions.

[AV1611VET]

It's not moving decimal points or anything or whatever, etc.

2,000,000 down to 20,000 is what I call moving the decimal point.

It's basic math.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's a legitimate question ...

I agree.

 

[Neogaia777]

2,000,000 down to 20,000 is what I call moving the decimal point.

It's basic math.

I thought you meant it in the same kind of way as moving the goalposts, or something like that, etc. But, please read the paper, or at least skim over it, or don't reply please, k.

God Bless.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

2,000,000 down to 20,000 is what I call moving the decimal point.

It's basic math.

The only real math that's needed is to understand that 1 Sea Divided by God =============== 2 Walls of Water.

 

[AV1611VET]

You say it is what God said, or says, etc, but how do you know for sure that you are just not simply only following some man or men's interpretations or traditions that haven't even bothered injecting any kind of new information or evidence into them for a very, very long time, etc?

If you truly believe this, Neogaia, then why are you spending so much time with it?

Even going so far as to set up an account to log into a website to investigate?

On the other hand, this might be like a hobby to you, and you like investigating things.

Dunno.

Just out of curiosity, are you a college student/graduate?

 

[AV1611VET]

I thought you meant it in the same kind of way as moving the goalposts, or something like that, etc. But, please read the paper, or at least skim over it, or don't reply please, k.

God Bless.

Fair enough.

I'll bow out of this thread.

 

[Neogaia777]

If you truly believe this, Neogaia, then why are you spending so much time with it?

Even going so far as to set up an account to log into a website to investigate?

On the other hand, this might be like a hobby to you, and you like investigating things.

Dunno.

Just out of curiosity, are you a college student/graduate?

Well, yes, I actually like this kind of thing, etc, and have always been naturally curious of just about everything, etc, so it's something I enjoy, etc.

I tried to go to college at a couple different times in my life when I was younger, but didn't make it much further than past the first year each time, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Fair enough.

I'll bow out of this thread.

Just for now, ok.

You are more than welcome to come back a little later, ok.

Much thanks/God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Fair enough.

I'll bow out of this thread.

I'll be bowing out for a little while right now as well, ok.

God Bless.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

the number was closer to 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc.

Shortly after the Hebrews left Egypt, God commanded a census. According to Numbers 1:46, there was 603,550 adult males, thus making the population around 2 to 3 million.

Let's remember, Israel spent 430 years in Egypt, and God blessed them, and they multiplied so rapidly, that Egyptian leaders began to fear that the Hebrews would over throw them (Exodus 1 8-10). The Egyptian leaders would not fear such thing if there was only 20,000 Hebrews.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Shortly after the Hebrews left Egypt, God commanded a census. According to Numbers 1:46, there was 603,550 adult males, thus making the population around 2 to 3 million.

Let's remember, Israel spent 430 years in Egypt, and God blessed them, and they multiplied so rapidly, that Egyptian leaders began to fear that the Hebrews would over throw them (Exodus 1 8-10). The Egyptian leaders would not fear such thing if there was only 20,000 Hebrews.

They were only in Egypt for 215 Years

If there was only 20k at the time of the Exodus, according to that paper (I have an account with JSTOR so I could read the whole thing) that would account for the highest population at Avaris being 50k-100k at its peak.

However, all that reasserts my theory of an Assyrian Pharaoh of the Exodus because if Israel's population was no more than 100k how could the Pharaoh of the Oppression say Israel was more and mightier than him and his people, unless he and his people were also minorities (Hyksos/Assyrians). It's obvious the Egyptians would have to outnumber Israel. God himself says they were the least of all people. Lessen the population to 20k and you're dealing with a significant population issue for the Egyptians if Israel outnumbered them 80 years beforehand at numbers less than 20k.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

However, all that reasserts my theory of an Assyrian Pharaoh of the Exodus because if Israel's population was no more than 100k

There is not need for theories, just stick to the Bible. The fact is, 600,000 male adults left Egypt. Include women and children and the number will be in millions.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

There is not need for theories, just stick to the Bible.

Granted.

Then I'll just assert that Pharaoh was Assyrian based on Isaiah 52:4. No theory, just fact.

 

[sjastro]

This is what I have so far.

This paper below shows what I now believe to be the correct number of Israelites in the exodus from Egypt, etc. And instead of 2 million, it shows, and proves in my opinion, that the number was closer to 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc.

I could only read all of it by creating an account, and to download it costs money, but it is more than well worth creating an account, and/or doing so in my opinion, etc.

The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI on JSTOR

Colin J. Humphreys, The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI, Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 48, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1998), pp. 196-213

www.jstor.org

I never believed those numbers of the amount of people in the exodus from Egypt, as they created a lot of logic problems for me, but I now believe this paper is accurate, and shows the true numbers, etc, which is about 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc. You'll need to get a look at the whole paper to know how they reached this conclusion, etc, which will require you to at least make an account, etc, but it is well worth it in my view, etc.

This solves the problems of around 2/3 of the Egyptian population being all of the sudden gone, or disappearing, and of the building projects still going on afterwards, and a whole host of other logic problems or issues, etc, a lot of which the paper I linked gets into, or explains thoroughly, or a lot of, etc. And it partially solves the problem of not finding many Israelite dead in the Sinai wilderness today also, etc. And there are also other possible ideas/theories as to why we might not find any Israelite dead at all, etc, which I will name or list for you or post for you if you really want me to, etc.

Pinning down the exact dates of the Exodus from Egypt, and who was Pharaoh at the time is difficult, and there are many different views or possibilities, and the most challenging thing about them is, a lot of them are giving several or multiple different possibilities, and are adding that each one has pretty much equal support both biblically and scientifically and archaeologically, etc. The best I could provide you with right now is maybe a possible range of dates maybe, and of possible different Pharoahs for those time periods, etc.

Why we find no animal remains? The Israelites seem to have lost the animals they took with them from Egypt shortly after the Red Sea, etc, exactly why that is is anyone's guess, but they didn't seem to have them anymore shorty after the Red Sea, when they began quickly complaining that they were going to die of starvation without any food, and that the Bible records is when God started feeding them with heavenly mana supernaturally, etc.

And as mentioned earlier, why not any other archaeological evidence of campsites, or camping activity, etc? Well, they had no need of fire according to the Bible, as they were being provided with food, and fire/light/warmth at night supernaturally according to the Bible, etc. And they also were nomadic, and never stayed in one single place for very long, and dwelt in tents, and never built any more permanent structures, and took everything with them when they went, etc. And firewood, especially in great, or even moderate quantities, etc, is also very hard to come by in a desert, etc.

This is what I've come up with so far, etc.

I will provide more if and when I find more, and will now respond to posts/replies regarding this, but please read the paper I provided before responding if you can please, ok. It really is key, etc. And you tell me if you either accept or maybe reject it, and perhaps maybe why, etc.

God Bless.

Your post is full of holes.
Isn’t the point of posting in a science forum to explain why there was no evidence of Israelite occupation of the Sinai for forty years without relying on the supernatural such as not needing campfires to keep warm or relying on heavenly manna for survival as their animals were drowned in the parting of the Red Sea?
These stories not only lack the evidence but are also unfalsifiable and therefore not scientific.

At least your link from what I can read relies on a non-supernatural argument by engaging in word games to greatly reduce the number of Israelites in the Sinai using the Book of Numbers.
The trouble is Exodus 12:37 also refers to six hundred thousand men so including women and children, two million is the number that is implied in the Bible.

As a result, all bets are still on as described in the other closed threads.
(1) No archaeological evidence of Bronze age nomadic occupation of the Sinai involving human and herd animal remains, tool kits, pottery, hearths etc.
(2) The Sinai became an arid desert 8000 years ago making it impossible to support two million individuals and a greater number of herd animals for a forty year occupation.
(3) No evidence of the collapse of Egyptian civilization at the start of the New Kingdom when Exodus supposedly occurred by the sudden loss of up to 2/3 of its population.
The evidence shows Egypt was not only prosperous but a military power with an empire extending into the Middle East including Israel.

Let’s play the devil’s advocate and assume there were only twenty thousand Israelites according to your link.
It still doesn’t prove the authenticity of Exodus but becomes “evidence of absence” versus an “absence of evidence” argument where the latter suggests it is undiscovered yet comes perilously close to being an argumentum ad ignorantium fallacy.
The Sinai being a desert by the time of the Exodus clinches the “evidence of absence” argument.
The archaeological evidence of Neolithic sites which predate Exodus but when Sinai had become a desert indicates very small mobile groups much like the nomadic Bedouins of today where the group size is not larger than fifteen individuals.
Small groups with a smaller number of herd animals are less reliant on the environment.
Isn’t it strange archaeologists can find evidence of Neolithic sites thousand of years earlier but not a single piece of evidence of twenty thousand or two million Israelites occupying Sinai for forty years in the upper archaeological layers where they should be easier to find?

Here is an example of evidence supporting the Bible in 1 Kings 14:25 and 2 Chronicles 12:1-12 which refers to a King Shisak of Egypt.
Shishak is a translation for the pharaoh Shoshenq 1 who campaigned in Canaan and left details of his campaign at Karnak in Egypt which is consistent with the Biblical account.
This is the type of evidence required to support Exodus namely the Egyptian side of the story.

 

[Halbhh]

This is what I have so far.

This paper below shows what I now believe to be the correct number of Israelites in the exodus from Egypt, etc. And instead of 2 million, it shows, and proves in my opinion, that the number was closer to 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc.

I could only read all of it by creating an account, and to download it costs money, but it is more than well worth creating an account, and/or doing so in my opinion, etc.

The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI on JSTOR

Colin J. Humphreys, The Number of People in the Exodus from Egypt: Decoding Mathematically the Very Large Numbers in Numbers I and XXVI, Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 48, Fasc. 2 (Apr., 1998), pp. 196-213

www.jstor.org

I never believed those numbers of the amount of people in the exodus from Egypt, as they created a lot of logic problems for me, but I now believe this paper is accurate, and shows the true numbers, etc, which is about 20 thousand, rather than 2 million, etc. You'll need to get a look at the whole paper to know how they reached this conclusion, etc, which will require you to at least make an account, etc, but it is well worth it in my view, etc.

This solves the problems of around 2/3 of the Egyptian population being all of the sudden gone, or disappearing, and of the building projects still going on afterwards, and a whole host of other logic problems or issues, etc, a lot of which the paper I linked gets into, or explains thoroughly, or a lot of, etc. And it partially solves the problem of not finding many Israelite dead in the Sinai wilderness today also, etc. And there are also other possible ideas/theories as to why we might not find any Israelite dead at all, etc, which I will name or list for you or post for you if you really want me to, etc.

Pinning down the exact dates of the Exodus from Egypt, and who was Pharaoh at the time is difficult, and there are many different views or possibilities, and the most challenging thing about them is, a lot of them are giving several or multiple different possibilities, and are adding that each one has pretty much equal support both biblically and scientifically and archaeologically, etc. The best I could provide you with right now is maybe a possible range of dates maybe, and of possible different Pharoahs for those time periods, etc.

Why we find no animal remains? The Israelites seem to have lost the animals they took with them from Egypt shortly after the Red Sea, etc, exactly why that is is anyone's guess, but they didn't seem to have them anymore shorty after the Red Sea, when they began quickly complaining that they were going to die of starvation without any food, and that the Bible records is when God started feeding them with heavenly mana supernaturally, etc.

And as mentioned earlier, why not any other archaeological evidence of campsites, or camping activity, etc? Well, they had no need of fire according to the Bible, as they were being provided with food, and fire/light/warmth at night supernaturally according to the Bible, etc. And they also were nomadic, and never stayed in one single place for very long, and dwelt in tents, and never built any more permanent structures, and took everything with them when they went, etc. And firewood, especially in great, or even moderate quantities, etc, is also very hard to come by in a desert, etc.

This is what I've come up with so far, etc.

I will provide more if and when I find more, and will now respond to posts/replies regarding this, but please read the paper I provided before responding if you can please, ok. It really is key, etc. And you tell me if you either accept or maybe reject it, and perhaps maybe why, etc.

God Bless.

Just in case you'd not already seen it (I'm not assuming you have not), you might like to have some parts of this:

How many Israelites left Egypt in the exodus? | GotQuestions.org

How many Israelites left Egypt in the exodus? If there were around 600,000 military-aged men in the exodus, how many total people were there?

www.gotquestions.org

Also, there's no reason to expect any trace of nomadic movement in the desert where the people aren't staying put for lengthy time (decades) and making pottery....

Also, there's no reason to expect animal remains to last in the desert when they are not buried or preserved in a vault/tomb.

Sand movement (like in wind) can reduce bones to dust.

"In neutral-pH soil or sand, the skeleton can persist for hundreds of years before it finally disintegrates." -- Skeletonization - Wikipedia

Obviously the time since the exodus is of a different order of magnitude than hundreds of years -- it's thousands of years.

--------
So, in summary, arguments that the exodus could not happened are just generally erroneous. I take it for granted some kind of exodus/migration happened, which is very ordinary and commonplace -- humans on the move is normal on Earth.

But, if you are talking to someone that has an agenda (like maybe they want there not to have been any Israelites ever in Egypt or other such odd viewpoints, it's best to just focus on only 1 question at a time, if I could suggest that to you. Don't argue 3 or 5 things at once, I'd suggest. So, if someone gives you a talking point list they have copy and pasted, etc, just choose 1 item from it, and point out that a laundry list can be a way for someone to create an ideology, instead of investigating facts.

Also, don't ever invest yourself in a theory. Just be happy to gain more information, all the time.

 

[Benjamin Müller]

Here is an example of evidence supporting the Bible in 1 Kings 14:25 and 2 Chronicles 12:1-12 which refers to a King Shisak of Egypt.
Shishak is a translation for the pharaoh Shoshenq 1 who campaigned in Canaan and left details of his campaign at Karnak in Egypt which is consistent with the Biblical account.
This is the type of evidence required to support Exodus namely the Egyptian side of the story.

Not if you talk to David Rohl who suggest Shishak is Ramasses the Great

 

[sjastro]

Not if you talk to David Rohl who suggest Shishak is Ramasses the Great

This is a fringe theory, the consensus is Shishak is associated with Shoshenq 1 whose alternative name in Egyptian is Shoshek which is very close to Shishak.

 

[sjastro]

Just in case you'd not already seen it (I'm not assuming you have not), you might like to have some parts of this:

How many Israelites left Egypt in the exodus? | GotQuestions.org

How many Israelites left Egypt in the exodus? If there were around 600,000 military-aged men in the exodus, how many total people were there?

www.gotquestions.org

Also, there's no reason to expect any trace of nomadic movement in the desert where the people aren't staying put for lengthy time (decades) and making pottery....

Also, there's no reason to expect animal remains to last in the desert when they are not buried or preserved in a vault/tomb.

Sand movement (like in wind) can reduce bones to dust.

"In neutral-pH soil or sand, the skeleton can persist for hundreds of years before it finally disintegrates." -- Skeletonization - Wikipedia

Obviously the time since the exodus is of a different order of magnitude than hundreds of years -- it's thousands of years.

--------
So, in summary, arguments that the exodus could not happened are just generally erroneous. I take it for granted some kind of exodus/migration happened, which is very ordinary and commonplace -- humans on the move is normal on Earth.

But, if you are talking to someone that has an agenda (like maybe they want there not to have been any Israelites ever in Egypt or other such odd viewpoints, it's best to just focus on only 1 question at a time, if I could suggest that to you. Don't argue 3 or 5 things at once, I'd suggest. So, if someone gives you a talking point list they have copy and pasted, etc, just choose 1 item from it, and point out that a laundry list can be a way for someone to create an ideology, instead of investigating facts.

Also, don't ever invest yourself in a theory. Just be happy to gain more information, all the time.

I'm afraid your argument the environment has destroyed human remains doesn't hold water as Neolithic human remains thousands of years older than Exodus have been found.

The human remains come from the Neolithic sites found at Ujrat el Mehed, Abu Madi I, and Wadi Tbeik.

​

 

[Halbhh]

I'm afraid your argument the environment has destroyed human remains doesn't hold water as Neolithic human remains thousands of years older than Exodus have been found.

View attachment 343180

The human remains come from the Neolithic sites found at Ujrat el Mehed, Abu Madi I, and Wadi Tbeik.

​

Perhaps you are in part here pointing out (preaching to the choir if to me) that humanity is vastly older than 10,000 years? I'm glad that many of us work to show others that.

I'd like it if everyone knows that human type remains tens of thousands of years old have been found in very many places....

Of course, remains don't last on a surface where they can be eroded by blowing sand for more than just a few hundred years....as I was pointing out in the post you are responding to here.

Perhaps you are just trying to suggest one should find bones in caves? Of course! One should, in most any cave in the world, if not for wild animals and such removing them to gnaw on. If you ever had a dog for a few years, you learn how that goes. So, we can tell anyone that of course wild animals would remove bones that are not carefully sealed up, as it's only fact.
But who doesn't know that vastly old remains have been found that were sealed up (older than when the exodus is thought to have happened) -- don't we all know that?


This is why burials and tombs and sealing are common everywhere on Earth of course. Another great thing for preservation is freezing/ice. Another great way is a tar pit, but that's far less available.

 

[sjastro]

Perhaps you are in part here pointing out (preaching to the choir if to me) that humanity is vastly older than 10,000 years? I'm glad that many of us work to show others that.

I'd like it if everyone knows that human type remains tens of thousands of years old have been found in very many places....

Of course, remains don't last on a surface where they can be eroded by blowing sand for more than just a few hundred years....as I was pointing out in the post you are responding to here.

Perhaps you are just trying to suggest one should find bones in caves? Of course! One should, in most any cave in the world, if not for wild animals and such removing them to gnaw on. If you ever had a dog for a few years, you learn how that goes. So, we can tell anyone that of course wild animals would remove bones that are not carefully sealed up, as it's only fact.
But who doesn't know that vastly old remains have been found that were sealed up (older than when the exodus is thought to have happened) -- don't we all know that?


This is why burials and tombs and sealing are common everywhere on Earth of course. Another great thing for preservation is freezing/ice. Another great way is a tar pit, but that's far less available.

This issue I had with your post#35 was this statement.

In neutral-pH soil or sand, the skeleton can persist for hundreds of years before it finally disintegrates." -- Skeletonization - Wikipedia

Obviously the time since the exodus is of a different order of magnitude than hundreds of years -- it's thousands of years.

The Neolithic human remains were buried in graves, if I was to take your statement literally no human remains would be left, the fact that they do exist invalidates your argument.
The Israelites buried their dead as well and the problem still exists if much older Neolithic graves containing human remains from sparely populated nomadic societies have been discovered where are all the Israelite burials from a much larger nomadic population?