Conservative Men and Abortion

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"Again, I'd just like to go back to the prom girl. She threw her baby away, but had she gone to an abortion clinic the day before, many people wouldn't have had a problem..."

Sad but true. Actual I have known people that didn't think it was wrong for her to kill her baby even after it was born. It's just a sign of how society rates human value.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by Laura
An abortion wouldn't have been performed on a woman who was that pregnant.

Want to bet? I know for a fact that there are doctors out there who will perform late-term abortions. And if you'd READ MY POST, that wasn't my point. My point was many people wouldn't have a problem with it, since, by law, it wasn't "technically" a baby.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Cammie
Again, I'd just like to go back to the prom girl. She threw her baby away, but had she gone to an abortion clinic the day before, many people wouldn't have had a problem...

"many"? I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't have a problem with an abortion that late. Insofar as I draw a line, it's at a couple of months; once there's a functioning brain, I think you've missed your chance. The brain, IMHO, is the physical characteristic of "personhood", as much as we can draw that line.

So... "some", perhaps, but I haven't met 'em.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Cammie
Want to bet? I know for a fact that there are doctors out there who will perform late-term abortions. And if you'd READ MY POST, that wasn't my point. My point was many people wouldn't have a problem with it, since, by law, it wasn't "technically" a baby.

Hmm. So, what you're saying is, you and the alleged "pro-abortion" people here seem to have some common ground; we'd all rather see that changed.

Maybe we should focus on the stuff we agree on?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

" I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't have a problem with an abortion that late."

Do I really need to get a list of people for you?

"The brain, IMHO, is the physical characteristic of "personhood", as much as we can draw that line."

So so for you it starts with brain activity. Let me come up with some good arguments against your idea.

"So... "some", perhaps, but I haven't met 'em."

No some for sure (not perhaps) and many depending what your definition of is... is.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Project 86
" I don't think I've ever met anyone who wouldn't have a problem with an abortion that late."

Do I really need to get a list of people for you?

No... but it might help if, knowing that neither I nor any of the other pro-choice people I know feel that way, you stopped accusing us of feeling that way.

"The brain, IMHO, is the physical characteristic of "personhood", as much as we can draw that line."

So so for you it starts with brain activity. Let me come up with some good arguments against your idea.

Feel free. I freely admit to being quite uncertain of things in this field; the question of what "personhood" is is a very hard one, and I have no idea where God draws the line. Hmm. Actually, I suspect I know; it's "when the soul is made and attached to the body". But I don't know when He does that, and I have seen nothing to convince me of any *specific* answer.

"So... "some", perhaps, but I haven't met 'em."

No some for sure (not perhaps) and many depending what your definition of is... is.

I have no idea how common it is. However, it doesn't matter to me; a million people thinking that an 8 month, 29 day fetus isn't a "baby" are not going to persuade me that they're right.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"No... but it might help if, knowing that neither I nor any of the other pro-choice people I know feel that way, you stopped accusing us of feeling that way."

Sydelle Zabow, Kit Weiss and T. Thompson
I could find thousands more but I'm not going to waste my time.


"Feel free. I freely admit to being quite uncertain of things in this field; the question of what "personhood" is is a very hard one, and I have no idea where God draws the line."

Ok watch for a post that shows both medically and biblicaly where your standpoint is disagreed with.

 

[westwitch]

Many people have a serious disagreement with late term and partial birth abortions, such as mentioned regarding the "prom girl". I am as much against this type of abortion as I am about throwing a living baby away or attempting to destroy it after it is born. I am for programs that allow mothers to give away their children and leave them anonymously. I am also pro-choice in that, as a feminist, I feel women can control their own bodies. I do not see the reasoning behind allowing a panel of religious leaders or male political leaders, who have never been in a such a situation, to determine whether or not said choice is acceptable.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

" am also pro-choice in that, as a feminist, I feel women can control their own bodies."

It's not about controlling your body. It's about controlling someone elses life, the life of a child.

 

[vegan]

Originally posted by westwitch
I am also pro-choice in that, as a feminist, I feel women can control their own bodies.

Yes.  Your own body.  You know, as a femanist you should thank God he chose women to have the privilege of hosting the unborn babies of the world.  That is a pretty big honor, and look at how people "repay" God.... by ripping this precious life out of their bodies. 

 

[IslandBreeze]

Well, here's one for ya. I'm a woman, and I'm extremely anti-feminist. I feel that God controls my body. You want control of your body? DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU'RE NOT READY FOR A CHILD! Now THERE'S real control.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Cammie
Well, here's one for ya. I'm a woman, and I'm extremely anti-feminist. I feel that God controls my body. You want control of your body? DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU'RE NOT READY FOR A CHILD! Now THERE'S real control.

So, what about rape?

 

[vegan]

Originally posted by Cammie
Well, here's one for ya. I'm a woman, and I'm extremely anti-feminist. I feel that God controls my body. You want control of your body? DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU'RE NOT READY FOR A CHILD! Now THERE'S real control.

God bless you, Cammie.  You are truly a woman of God.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by seebs
So, what about rape?

I've already told you; I don't believe in 90% of rape stories, so that doesn't apply, IMHO.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

OK here you go seebs. First the biblical arguement.

Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD.

Obviously a child even before coming out of the mother.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Only a human can have a sinful nature. So since he had sin since being conceived it would be only logical to conlude your a person at that point.

So you are killing a human. Because of this you breaking:

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,


Among other verses.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This verse tells us the child should not bear the punishment for the father. This is a good example of a rape situation. You punishing the child with death because his father raped his mother.

Nonbiblical arguement:

Quote from Greg Koukl

"First, where do you get this idea that there is a distinction between being a human being and personhood? How do you justify the notion that there is such a thing as a human being who is not a person? Where do you get the right to draw those categories such that we can say this is a human being but not a person? Where does this concept come from?

I'll tell you where it came from historically. It came from the pro-abortion movement who has lost the battle on the argument of the humanness of the unborn child because a separate human being exists from the point of conception. That is our argument biologically, scientifically, even in many cases legally. They have lost that argument. The unborn child is not part of the woman's body; it is a separate individual domiciled within her womb. In order to continue to support their cause they have to find a different issue, so they have made what becomes an arbitrary distinction between personhood and humanness. Yes, it's a human. We can see that. But is it a person with the characteristics of personality? If it's not a person then it's not worthy of being protected. "

Also something else by him to keep things ontrack that he makes a good point of:

"You don't have to answer the question of personhood because personhood is not the issue. Don't be pulled into the trap of assuming the burden of proof to demonstrate that an unborn child is a person. That concedes the argument.

"The issue is not personhood. The issue is humanness. All human beings are persons by very nature."

The child is human even when the brain isn't fully working.

Finally.

"When does a new individual being come into existence?
This always happens at the point of fertilization because at the point of fertilization something remarkable takes place. In the case of human beings, an egg with 23 chromosomes unites with a sperm with 23 chromosomes and creates a zygote with--guess what--46 chromosomes. Not all the chromosomes of the mother, not all the chromosomes of the father, but a unique chromosomal match. In other words, at that point, by scientific assessment, we have a living thing that does not have the chromosomal makeup of either of his parents, but a combination of the two. In other words, it has its own unique chromosomal pattern of 46 chromosomes that are its own as a living being. That's how we know the zygote is not mom and is not dad. It is something different and it is alive. If it is alive, and it is not mom and is not dad, it must be a separate organism--living in mom, sure enough, but a separate living entity. It is a living being. "

There you go.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"So, what about rape?"

The bible answers that. Read the long post I made above.

 

[IslandBreeze]

Originally posted by vegan
God bless you, Cammie.  You are truly a woman of God.

I'm really not, but I try. Thank you!

 

[Laura]

Originally posted by Cammie
I've already told you; I don't believe in 90% of rape stories, so that doesn't apply, IMHO.

I find this extremely sad...especially coming from a woman.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Cammie
Well, here's one for ya. I'm a woman, and I'm extremely anti-feminist. I feel that God controls my body. You want control of your body? DON'T HAVE SEX IF YOU'RE NOT READY FOR A CHILD! Now THERE'S real control.

Main Entry: fem·i·nism
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

That is the definition of "feminism". Now what about feminism disturbs you?

I've already told you; I don't believe in 90% of rape stories, so that doesn't apply, IMHO.

Why not?
Cammie, only 16% of rapes are even reported. You need to do some volunteer work in a Rape Crisis center and meet some woman who have been raped. You may develop more empathy and compassion towards your sisters.
Rape isn't a roll in the hay with the woman saying.."No thank you". It's an extremely violent act.
Of course some women don't experience any trauma from rape because they are dead.

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS OF RAPE TRAUMA SYNDROME

Immediately after a rape, survivors often experience shock. They are likely to feel cold, faint, become mentally confused (disorientated), tremble, feel nauseous and sometimes vomit.
Pregnancy.
Gynaecological problems. Irregular, heavier and/or painful periods. ******l discharges, bladder infections. Sexually transmitted diseases.
Bleeding and/or infections from tears or cuts in the ****** or rectum.
A soreness of the body. There may also be bruising, grazes, cuts etc.
Nausea and/or vomiting.
Throat irritations and/or soreness due to forced oral sex.
Tension headaches.
Pain in the lower back and/or in the stomach.
Sleep disturbances. This may be difficulty in sleeping or feeling exhausted and needing to sleep more than usual.
Eating disturbances. This may be not eating or eating less or needing to eat more than usual.

 

[Clay]

so what is a human? lets see what Webster says a human is

Human:a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) : MAN; broadly : any living or extinct member of the family (Hominidae) to which the primate belongs

would this characterize an unborn baby? a life in a womb? since when is a baby, not a baby but a thing that women can steal the life out of?

would it be far to say that someone is a human when their heart and brain start functioning? after all, everyone is saying someone isnt a human anymore when they're brain dead or on life support.

so if a baby's heart and brain is fully functioning around a month (or maybe less), then why on earth is a baby not considered a human? a human with the right and the choice to live! that baby is the most innocent of all, yet those who say "get the plank out of your own eye" decided to "choose" to end this baby's life when they didnt do anything. it was that woman who did something, not the baby.

lets carry this to the extreme, why not kill the guilty and let the innocent live? (im obviously not talking about rape). afterall, everyone cries justice. is this not just? ceasing the guilty's rights, and letting the innocent go free?