Conservative Men and Abortion

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Yes Cammie, scripture isn't quiet on abortion. I thought I pointed that out a long time ago on this thread. Seeing that it came up on the what's new list I thought I would read it. It looks like we have gone full circle. I showed scripture and also nonscripture support that abortion is wrong but now we are at square one claiming that there isn't.....

 

[Lacmeh]

Well, Cammie, the first quote, I read more along the line:" I planned already the path of the life for the person, who will be birthed at time XY."

Doesn´t everyone argue, that the old contract, with the whole eye for eye doesn´t apply anymore?
Anyways, this passage is adressing the premature birthings through use of force, not really abortion in the first trimester. That law can´t be applied to that, because on the first two months a woman may not even know, that she is pregnant and surely not give birth prematurely when hit...

The second quote I read also more along the line, this human will be born and I plan things for him.

 

[IslandBreeze]

You'll see what you want to see, regardless of any sources I come up with.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"Doesn´t everyone argue, that the old contract, with the whole eye for eye doesn´t apply anymore?"

Thou shalt not kill certainly still applies.

"Anyways, this passage is adressing the premature birthings through use of force, not really abortion in the first trimester."

Even in the first trimester we have a human we are killing.

I may have missed some earilier posts by you since I don't get the rest of your post and what you were talking about exactly.

 

[Lacmeh]

Cammie, you post some quotes, trying to prove your point. I point out, that these quotes can be interpreted in an other way. When someone says:" I have known you since before your birth and the path you will take", it is more a statement of Destiny.
BTW most people argue, the statement is more like thou shalt not murder, since then the whole death penalty and war thing is not really excusable by Christianity.
The question arises, how can the command Thou shalt not kill not be conflicting with eye for an eye, life for a life?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

"Cammie, you post some quotes, trying to prove your point. I point out, that these quotes can be interpreted in an other way. When someone says:" I have known you since before your birth and the path you will take", it is more a statement of Destiny."

It also shows that God regonized a person even when they are still in the womb, unlike most people in today's society. That's the big point in the passage she posted.

"BTW most people argue, the statement is more like thou shalt not murder, since then the whole death penalty and war thing is not really excusable by Christianity."

Actually war and the death penalty is supported with scripture (I could give a Bible lesson on this but I have folks coming down for the weekend in 1 hour so don't have time right now). Abortion on the other hand isn't.

"The question arises, how can the command Thou shalt not kill not be conflicting with eye for an eye, life for a life?"

Not sure I get you there. Do you support war or the death penalty? I'm curious where you are coming from.

 

[Lacmeh]

No i don´t support war or the death penalty. I just point out, that the Old Testament must be very contractive, if it says no killing, then says life for a life. If war is supported by scripture, the next question stands, who decides, what is a "rightous" war? Everyone for himself?
Well, as far as scripture supprot goes, scripture is silent on a lot of today´s issues and in a lot of todays issues scripture is ignored. Freedom of religion is a conrtadiction to scripture. Scripture doesn´t adress the issue of working holidays other than one must not. But a lot of people work on holidays, because the modern system needs it. Many actions nowadays aren´t supported by scripture. Playing games, reading fictional books, forms of government, operating people.
It is one thing to forbid, thos ewho perform abortions and those who undergo them into a church. Every church has the right to admit or not admit certain people. But to force a religous based law is quite another quality. Scripture states, that witches are evil and tools of teh Satan. Logic would dictate, to force a law to forbid Wicca, Satanism and any such religion, in which followers perform magic rituals. (I know, Wicca and Satanism are quite different).

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Cammie
No, actually it's not.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 "

"The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV"

Exodus 21:22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Scripture is hardly silent on the issue. Scripture says quite blatantly that what you call a fetus is a baby, and abortion is murder.

I think you're reading what you want to in those passages.  None of them constitutes a specific "thou shalt not have an abortion".  I believe abortion is wrong for myself based on ethical reasoning and my own conceptions of right and wrong, but I would certainly not advocate use of civil and criminal law, deception by fake clinics, and the like to take the moral agency I had to decide not to abort my pregnancies from another.

 

[Outspoken]

"Ideology doesn't reveal character. "

Sure it does. If you want to insert your own views onto the bible, as you clearly do, it reveals that you don't believe the bible, nor take all of it as correct. Lynn, christianity isn't a buffet you can't take what you want and leave the rest.

"the understanding we get by just reading the laws is not enough, without guidance."

Exactly seebs, the NT is quite clear on those interpretations, that's one big reason why Christ came down is to clearify what the law ment and to give out the Holy Spirit to further the process. The bible is quite clear, the more conservative route is the best. Abortion is wrong, plain and simple.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Ideology doesn't reveal character. "

Sure it does.

Nah, you've got good and bad and everything in between in all categories.  You, for instance, probably never steal from blind men's cups, but, you're not happy, either.

If you want to insert your own views onto the bible, as you clearly do, it reveals that you don't believe the bible, nor take all of it as correct. Lynn, christianity isn't a buffet you can't take what you want and leave the rest. 

So I assume you wear tefillin (prayer shawls), don't shave, and keep the electricity turned off on the sabbath?

Dude, I'm not a fundamentalist.  I was raised in Liberal Mainline Protestantism and am still in it.  As Drummond said in the play I quote in the sig below, "The Bible's a good book, maybe even a great book, but it's not the only book..."  God gave us minds, praise him.  Legalism is an insult to God.

 

 

[Outspoken]

"You, for instance, probably never steal from blind men's cups, but, you're not happy, either."

I'm quite happy thanks Ideology does revel character though.

"So I assume you wear tefillin (prayer shawls), don't shave, and keep the electricity turned off on the sabbath?
"

See romans Great book.

"but it's not the only book..." God gave us minds, praise him. Legalism is an insult to God."

I'm not being legalistic at all. what I am being is consistant with what God says. He makes it very clear in the bible that scripture is to be studied, memorized and meditated upon. Christ himself did that, are you better then he? Don't add to the bible Lynn, its not what God wants.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Texas Lynn

Legalism is an insult to God.

AMEN!

 

[Texas Lynn]

Originally posted by Outspoken
[B He makes it very clear in the bible that scripture is to be studied, memorized and meditated upon. Christ himself did that, are you better then he?

Sure, and so we do. Yet "hungering and thirsting for righteousness" often requires contextual perspective and use of rational abilities.  We cannot say that's ALL Christ did, as scripture is silent on his doings from age 12 to age 30.  Considering how a man of 50 was elderly indeed then, that's a significant blocked area of knowledge.  As the challenger to the legalists/fundamentalists of his day---the Pharisees and Scribes---he mastered debate and rhetoric.  Chances are even though he was a carpenter his non-Jewish reading included more than the building codes. 

Don't add to the bible Lynn, its not what God wants.

???  It's not like I've written a novel like God's Other Son like Don Imus did (about a televangelist who claimed to be Christ's younger brother) you know...or if we wuz Islamic, something like Salman Rushdie's the Satanic Verses.  So, what, are you gonna put a fatwa on me?

 

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by Cammie
You'll see what you want to see, regardless of any sources I come up with.

*******

Hi,
just tuned in, ! Here are an oldtimers thoughts on a couple questions that arise in my thinking.

First: Paul uses inspiration telling that there are Gentils who will be saved that never even heard of Christ, as we know Him. Rom. 2:14-15. And He states that they LEARNED from nature! Even to the point of CONVERSION.
(as seen in 2 Cor. 3:3) He says: "Which show the work of THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS,.." seems like murder is one of the commandments.

About NATURE: What happens when anyone puts their hand up near a racing pigeon setting on her young? (or eggs) Male or female both defend them with continuing swats of their wings & pecking at you.
It seems that they have better morals than many professed Christians, and SURELY we can also learn from them?

Yet, to have a [book of records], as the Bible states, it MUST CLEARLY POINT OUT WHEN THAT RECORD STARTS OR BEGINS? And in Psalms 139:15-16 it tells us just that. (If we BELIEVE the Word of God-2 Tim. 3:16)

"My SUBSTANCE WAS NOT HID FROM THEE, when I was [MADE IN SECRET}, ... THINE EYES DID SEE MY SUBSTANCE, YET BEING UNPERFECT; (notice!!)
AND [IN THY BOOK *ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN], which incontinuance were fashioned, [WHEN AS YET THERE WAS *NONE OF THEM]." When did this record take place? AT CONCEPTION!

If one can get past this above? We can do a SPIRITUAL one, OK?
When does 'sin' become sin?? Well in James 1:14-15 this is also laid to rest. (for most of us anyway) Notice the closely parelled Wording of Inspiration... "Bur every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when [LUST IS CONCEIVED], it BRINGETH FORTH SIN. and when it is FINISHED IT BRINGETH FORTH DEATH." understand the word of CONCEIVED? NO? Think of the RECORD BOOKS.
---P/N/B/
********

 

[Outspoken]

"We cannot say that's ALL Christ did, as scripture is silent on his doings from age 12 to age 30. "

Yup, I agree, but we have NO licience to make up, guess or half hazzardly talk about something we have no knowledge about. The scripture is 100% there and thus it is the standard.

"Chances are even though he was a carpenter his non-Jewish reading included more than the building codes. "

Doubtful. Even as a child you could find him studying in his fathers house, or did you not read that event Its clear that Christ put the unmost emphasis on scripture and the study of it. Why should I not?

"It's not like I've written a novel like God's Other Son"

I don't think you understand the importance of chaning a small part of scripture. Even one word can be dangerious. Ever heard of the phrase, "jot and a tiddle"? I'm not calling you Satan (preface my statements) but when he lies its not a bold faced thing. He takes 9 parts truth and adds one part lie, so small enough that you don't notice, but it twists scripture. Thus is why you shouldn't add or change scripture lynn, not even a "jot or a tiddle."