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Confession ...

fhansen

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I think that to get at the answer to that I'd have to ask you why you feel any of them are correct. If you think they're all pretty likely--or even more than that--I would like to have your explanation why that is so.

The whole point of this is EVIDENCE. That's what Mama Kidogo asked for, and my reply was oriented towards the matter of evidence. So, is that present in these three cases, in your opinion?
We know that not everything Jesus said and did was recorded. And we have no reason to assume that the bible was intended as a catechism. As for JWs, they base their opinions on private speculations or interpretations of the bible- from a Sola Sciptura POV-and they’re not the only ones to presume to know what the early church was like. Joseph Smith, another late-comer, received new revelation-something the Church has always consistently denounced as impossible and therefore invalid.

The RCC, OTOH, as well as the EO, can at least logically claim to have a historical legacy stretching directly back to the beginning of the faith. A few might argue for somewhat later inception dates-which most would dismiss- but in any case we can certainly find plenty of consistencies in theology with ECFs, for example. So I’d tend to think that those Churches could well have an insider’s viewpoint on what took place and that their continuous practices, themselves, would constitute or contribute to a theology regardless if they happened to be recorded in the early writings of the Church which were at some later point officially acknowledged as canon.
 
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~Anastasia~

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It might be the word, "Orthodoxy". I never knew, until coming here, that those particular religions that carry that word in their names are really just slightly realigned versions of Catholicism.

But Willie,

I'm not arguing for or against anyone ... wouldn't Catholicism actually be realigned Orthodoxy?

And ... Lutheranism is realigned Catholicism.

And many xyz Protestant churches are realigned Lutherans (or some other "original Protestant" ...

I'm sorry. I am made weary by disagreements. And I am bothered to see many things lumped together and discarded because they are associated with this or that.

Just as an example - I am not speaking for or against anything, but as an example -

the Crucifix.

Many protestants hate the crucifix. One day in my ignorance, I was at a ceramic shop with a friend of mine. She was painted a beautiful representation of a crucifix statue for a friend. I really loved it, and I mentioned that I would like to do one myself. She looked at me said, "But you're not Catholic, are you?" And as far as I knew, there were Catholics and not-Catholics, so I said no. And she told me that I wasn't supposed to want a Crucifix if I wasn't Catholic.

I have since heard the argument. "But Jesus isn't on the Cross anymore!"

No, He's not. But you know what? He's not in a manger anymore either, and yet we put up Nativity scenes at Christmas, and I have dozens of Nativity ornaments on my Christmas tree.

Maybe I'm missing something, and I admit to being very "uneducated" about Christianity, but I really, honestly fail to see the difference?

Things like this, make me tired in my spirit.

I'm not picking on you Willie. I love you as a brother in Christ, and I respect your opinions. I understand standing for the truth as we can best understand it. I'm just seeing what appears to be so much blindness and failure to really think about what we are really denouncing.
 
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Mama Kidogo

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And I must say I am surprised. I thought asking about RC beliefs would stir some controversy, but those threads remained relatively tame.

I am at a loss to understand why when I begin to ask questions about Orthodox theology, such as this erupts?

:confused:

It's not that it's so normal. I think it's that Orthodox beliefs are seldom queried about and now that you have asked, some are reading and getting stuck on partial statements and not taking them in full context.

I've found many have absolutely no idea as to what we believe and that's understandable as the Orthodox is given much leeway to follow his conscience on matters of doctrine. Also there is a big cultural divide between Eastern and Western terminology concerning theology and thinking. The concept of using our imagination in worship is not promoted in Eastern thinking to the degree it is in Western religion. We tend to shy away from it as it focuses back on our self and imaginary things. And yet we are seen as mystical by some.
I've discovered that in Orthodoxy, 'I don't know' is a perfectly reasonable answer when dealing with matters of God and how God does things. That seems so wrong to many Western believers as it seems they want an answer to everything and every detail defined explicitly.
It boils down to not understanding each other and simply not believing in the same way. People take it personal when told they are wrong. People seem to even take it personal when told they are not agreed with. The former is understandable. The latter is vanity.
Feel free to disagree. I will not take it personal as it's only an opinion.
And then we have the fact that you are simply sweet and very polite. I'm quite sure the bickering seems very strange to you. It seems so to me as well and I'm a tough old cob. I just take it as I learned to take it growing up next door to a large Italian family. From the shouting and yelling you'd think they were about to murder each other. But that wasn't the case at all. They were just passionate and loud. It's hard to saw and drive nails quietly.
 
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Albion

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But Willie,

I'm not arguing for or against anyone ... wouldn't Catholicism actually be realigned Orthodoxy?

And ... Lutheranism is realigned Catholicism.

And many xyz Protestant churches are realigned Lutherans (or some other "original Protestant" ...
I think what Willie meant was that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are really so close in belief and practice that they are like twins. Sure they may dress differently, but the similarity is very strong. They differ on so little, and they separated mainly over cultural differences and hurt pride. But with Lutherans, etc. while they may have come from the RCC, it was because of many and fundamental doctrinal differences. So it's not just a matter of one coming from another.

As you know, if all Christian denominations have to be classified using only the two-fold Catholic vs Protestant format that used to be how the government did things, the RCC and EO are in the same category.

The reason that many people are unsure about it is because Eastern Orthodoxy is not very well known in this country outside of the ethnic groups that historically have most been identified with it.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Sorry you feel that way. Of course I will honor your wishes.

Steeno, I really wish you understood what I was saying. Since you are "sorry that I feel that way" ... I think that maybe you don't really understand what I mean to say.

I welcome and invite discussion. Disagreement, agreement, points made for or against, explanation - that's the purpose of the forum, right? If I wanted to find only people who agreed with something, I'd go to their particular part of the CF.

It's just that comments that are basically one-line jabs at an individual are not helpful in that way. And you were not the only one doing it, but you seemed to pick up the banner.

If you want to read and respond, I very much welcome your comments.

Either way you decide, I pray you have peace, and may God be with you.
 
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Mama Kidogo

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Then we must be doing something right.

(By right, I mean orthodox.)
If we were agreed with fully, I'd be very concerned. You have to tickle a lot of ears to be agreed with by the masses.
 
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Chesterton

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I'm not arguing for or against anyone ... wouldn't Catholicism actually be realigned Orthodoxy?

And ... Lutheranism is realigned Catholicism.

And many xyz Protestant churches are realigned Lutherans (or some other "original Protestant" ...

:thumbsup:

"Realigned" - I like the euphemism. Wish I were as gentle as you. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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It's not that it's so normal. I think it's that Orthodox beliefs are seldom queried about and now that you have asked, some are reading and getting stuck on partial statements and not taking them in full context.

I've found many have absolutely no idea as to what we believe and that's understandable as the Orthodox is given much leeway to follow his conscience on matters of doctrine. Also there is a big cultural divide between Eastern and Western terminology concerning theology and thinking. The concept of using our imagination in worship is not promoted in Eastern thinking to the degree it is in Western religion. We tend to shy away from it as it focuses back on our self and imaginary things. And yet we are seen as mystical by some.
I've discovered that in Orthodoxy, 'I don't know' is a perfectly reasonable answer when dealing with matters of God and how God does things. That seems so wrong to many Western believers as it seems they want an answer to everything and every detail defined explicitly.
It boils down to not understanding each other and simply not believing in the same way. People take it personal when told they are wrong. People seem to even take it personal when told they are not agreed with. The former is understandable. The latter is vanity.
Feel free to disagree. I will not take it personal as it's only an opinion.
And then we have the fact that you are simply sweet and very polite. I'm quite sure the bickering seems very strange to you. It seems so to me as well and I'm a tough old cob. I just take it as I learned to take it growing up next door to a large Italian family. From the shouting and yelling you'd think they were about to murder each other. But that wasn't the case at all. They were just passionate and loud. It's hard to saw and drive nails quietly.


Thank you, Mama Kidogo.

I understand some of what you said.

I know I had never heard of Orthodoxy two months ago. I thought the RC church was THE church until Luther nailed up his proclamation. I thought all other churches came from Luther. It's been quite an education, and I'm far from understanding more than just the basics. (Forgive me, if anyone is offended by my prior ignorant assumptions!)

And I do know there have been several statements of Orthodox faith that have hit me as YOU BELIVE WHAT?????? And my first reaction is - that is just WRONG!

I'm honestly glad I explored some RC questions first. I was very prepared to find out if what I'd been told was true or not. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, but what I really did NOT understand was the why, or the way they explained it. The information I received had been completely "mistranslated" somewhere.

Because of that I was willing to take a breath, and say, "Wait, do you really believe what it sounds to me like you believe?" ... and in each case so far, I have discovered that the Orthodox doctrine was not exactly what I had first taken it to be.

Just like Steeno, when I first heard "so that man may become god" I was like NO WAY! So I understand his response! But ... it is not what I first assumed it must be.

And yes, I am seeing the cultural divide between East and West. That is one thing I know from my husband being Asian, and I've actually been very involved with Asian individuals and community for quite a few years. Another rather odd thing that I didn't seek out but keeps "happening to me" and I have wondered if it was God's doing and if there was a purpose. It lets me think differently, in some ways perhaps, than most Westerners.

I am very interested in what you talked about as Orthodoxy using imagination?

And you're right. Bickering just goes against my nature. I don't handle it well. If my family had been Italian (ironic because they are a culture I adore!), I probably would just crumble in the midst of it, LOL.

Thank you for your understanding and helping me to understand. Be blessed, dear sister.
 
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Steeno7

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Steeno, I really wish you understood what I was saying. Since you are "sorry that I feel that way" ... I think that maybe you don't really understand what I mean to say.

I welcome and invite discussion. Disagreement, agreement, points made for or against, explanation - that's the purpose of the forum, right? If I wanted to find only people who agreed with something, I'd go to their particular part of the CF.

It's just that comments that are basically one-line jabs at an individual are not helpful in that way. And you were not the only one doing it, but you seemed to pick up the banner.

If you want to read and respond, I very much welcome your comments.

Either way you decide, I pray you have peace, and may God be with you.

I understand, but it is a two way street that you are only seeing as a one way street. Thats fine. I hope you get the answers you need. God bless.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hawks and Doves. It takes both.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

Absolutely. I know it does. Believe me, I've seen situations that called for a warrior, and I step out of the way. That's not me, and I know it's needed, and if I were the only one available, the whole thing would fail.

I treasure the gifts of others as well.

Just it's possible I suppose that some aspects may be hard to witness.

(And wait, there are times I have to pray against certain things, and I feel that righteous indignation rise up in me as well ... but that is rare and rather foreign to my nature.)

Thank you for the reminder.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I understand, but it is a two way street that you are only seeing as a one way street. Thats fine. I hope you get the answers you need. God bless.

Believe me, I understand what you are saying, and I know it probably looks that way.

Asking questions does not mean I agree or disagree with things - it's just my nature to respect beliefs and ask questions until I understand.

In general, I don't see the need to post my conclusions.

And these independent issues are not my overall aim. My overall aim is to get other perspectives, so I can identify what are the doctrines of what I have been taught, so that I can put everything on a level playing field to analyze it.

In the beginning of the confession thread (this one) I actually asked for Protestant point of view. Although it was what I am familiar with, no reason had ever been given me. And when I searched out verses relating to confession in the Scriptures, I found only one in the NT that could even be taken to be to confess to God, and even that wasn't explicit.

Of course, I know (I believe I understand) that your position is that we don't have to ask for forgiveness at all? And you (or someone else) has posted Scripture to support that point of view for me as well. To be honest, that point had not even occurred to me before (though I was actually taught it implicitly at one time), so I am glad you mentioned it.

I'm interested in hearing what people believe and why, and I did appreciate your viewpoint. Any expansion of it is further appreciated as well.

Thanks, Steeno.
 
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fhansen

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I like the crucifix because it is all about Jesus. Not the cross by itself but Jesus accomplishing redemption on the cross. What a wondrous sight.

God bless you, my sister Kylissa
Yes, proclaiming His death and what it accomplished, for the same reason our eating of the bread and drinking of the cup is to proclaim it. 1 Cor 11:26
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think what Willie meant was that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are really so close in belief and practice that they are like twins. Sure they may dress differently, but the similarity is very strong. They differ on so little, and they separated mainly over cultural differences and hurt pride. But with Lutherans, etc. while they may have come from the RCC, it was because of many and fundamental doctrinal differences. So it's not just a matter of one coming from another.

As you know, if all Christian denominations have to be classified using only the two-fold Catholic vs Protestant format that used to be how the government did things, the RCC and EO are in the same category.

The reason that many people are unsure about it is because Eastern Orthodoxy is not very well known in this country outside of the ethnic groups that historically have most been identified with it.

Of course you're right, Albion. And I want you to know that I have really appreciated your help in various threads of understanding church denominational structure overall.

Yes, I can see Orthodoxy is quite closely related to RC. I guess that's why it seemed natural to begin asking questions about their doctrine next, since this thread started out looking at both of those. It's easier to consider like things together, then determine what the differences are.

But yes, I do understand the differences must be very small, and I understand Willie's comment. I might have been careless in my answer, because my spirit was just wearied by all of that. It makes me so sad.

I probably need to toughen up if I am going to remain in GT, quite frankly. :)

Thank you for your post.
 
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Chesterton

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I probably need to toughen up if I am going to remain in GT, quite frankly. :)

Yeah. I hope nobody here hates anyone else, but some of us (like myself) are sometimes a bit more abrasive than we should be. :)
 
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Mama Kidogo

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It might be the word, "Orthodoxy". I never knew, until coming here, that those particular religions that carry that word in their names are really just slightly realigned versions of Catholicism.
Slightly? The Schism has lasted for a millennium and is over Dogma.
I agree we believe many things the same. But if you laid it all out, I think all Christians agree on a majority of things. We just seem to focus on the disagreements.
I mean all of us posting believe the statement of faith (or are supposed to).
Without a doubt the ancient groups do tend to believe more the same as we once believed as one.
I don't think the EO has ever realigned, reformed or changed much. Grew a bit, learned and developed a bit but held firm to what we always have held.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Slightly? The Schism has lasted for a millennium and is over Dogma.

I agree we believe many things the same. But if you laid it all out, I think all Christians agree on a majority of things. We just seem to focus on the disagreements.

I mean all of us posting believe the statement of faith (or are supposed to).
Without a doubt the ancient groups do tend to believe more the same as we once believed as one.

I don't think the Orthodox have ever realigned, reformed or changed much. Grew a bit, learned and developed a bit but held firm to what we always have held.

I am confident that all of the ancient churches think they they've never realigned, changed, or reformed dogmatically and that growth and development is all that has happened. Maybe it is true and none of us ever really changed but there was always a seed of difference present. I do not know.

There is a lot I do not know.

God be merciful to me, a sinner and an ignoramus.
 
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