Confession ...

[Tangible]

One important thing to remember. Confession and Absolution, at least in the Lutheran context, does not confer a new or additional forgiveness, but announces to the repentant sinner the grace of God and the forgiveness of sins - yes, even THOSE sins, the ones we think are so bad and so troubling that they could never be forgiven.

The purpose of private Confession and Absolution is to get out into the open those sins that we have hidden from the world and even ourselves, the ones that we would flatly deny if challenged about them, the ones that we would even judge others for. When we admit to another human being that we have done those things and had those thoughts, we can be truly repentant. We can no longer look that person in the face and think that we can continue to ignore the sin or sweep it under the rug.

The purpose of confessing to your pastor is that he is accountable to all to keep your confession confidential, so that our human nature does not work against us and result in being judged, gossiped about, and have our reputation damaged. (I participated in a 'confess your sins one to another' session in a former Evangelical church - it was disastrous. The reputations of several members was irrevocably damaged, and they soon left the church.)

We must confront that sin, agree with God that it is indeed sinful, and (this is the often the hardest part) accept God's free and abundant forgiveness for this sin - not because of anything we have done or could do, but solely for the sake of what Jesus Christ has done for us.

The forgiveness that we are granted at the moment we are justified by God is free and complete. It indeed covers our innate sinfulness, as well as all our past, present and future sins. There is no sin we could ever do that is not taken up into Christ and nailed to the Cross.

But that is not the only time that forgiveness of sins is announced to us. The Church has been given the authority to forgive the sins of repentant sinners, and this forgiveness is a real and true forgiveness. But it is the forgiveness won on the Cross of Christ, and not earned by any works of penance that is granted us. We can never do anything to atone for our own sins. Even those who look at repentance as a work we do, instead of as a gift from God as scripture states, think that we must do something to atone for our sins.

God grants the forgiveness of our own individual sins won by Jesus Christ both once and continually, because we continue to sin, and God's forgiveness is new and continually pouring over us as we remember and live in our Baptism, it is placed in our mouths and poured down our throats in Holy Communion, and spoken to us in plain, understandable words in the Absolution.

Our cup truly does overflow.

 

[Albion]

Absolution (as we use it) is a word I don't like.

We received "absolution" at the cross. Jesus said, "It is finished."

That's why--in the Lutheran and Anglican and other non-Roman churches that have a general confession--the minister basically reassures the congregation that their confession of sins to God is acceptable to Him, rather than posing as a mortal endowed with the authority to act in God's stead.

 

[Steeno7]

A real world example:

I am going to have to let some of myself die tonight.

I flat-out lied to a man at church Sunday. No point going into it (it's long and involved), but suffice it to say I blurted out something to make myself look better in his eyes, and to bolster some sagging self-esteem I have been suffering through since the stoke.

I'm basically all too aware of limited performance issues now, and it hurts me emotionally. This lie I told was to try and bring back of some of the old me that I know I will never see again.

Anyway, if I see this guy tonight at church, I have decided to admit what a fool this old man has been in trying to look like someone I no longer am. This is going to be tough.

Will let you Guys know how it goes.

Durn! I wish I could just go confess this in a prayer closet somewhere.... he would never know the difference, anyway. But that is not how I read the Bible.

Which is exactly what that passage in James is speaking to. If you have sinned against a brother or sister go to them and confess it, make it right. Bravo Willie!

 

[Willie T]

That's why--in the Lutheran and Anglican and other non-Roman churches that have a general confession--the minister basically reassures the congregation that their confession of sins to God is acceptable to Him, rather than posing as a mortal endowed with the authority to act in God's stead.

Cool. that's exactly what he should be doing.

 

[Tangible]

That's why--in the Lutheran and Anglican and other non-Roman churches that have a general confession--the minister basically reassures the congregation that their confession of sins to God is acceptable to Him, rather than posing as a mortal endowed with the authority to act in God's stead.

Actually, in the Lutheran church the wording is "in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

As a called and ordained minister of the Word, he actually is a mortal endowed with the authority to act in God's stead to forgive sins, preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments.

But he does not do this as himself, as a man acting as an individual. He does this through the authority granted him in his office as a minister of the word, duly ordained and commissioned for the task. It is the Church forgiving sins, as she is commissioned to do by Our Lord, and he is the mouth and hands of the Church.

 

[Willie T]

Actually, in the Lutheran church the wording is "in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

As a called and ordained minister of the Word, he actually is a mortal endowed with the authority to act in God's stead to forgive sins, preach the Gospel and administer the sacraments.

But he does not do this as himself, as a man acting as an individual. He does this through the authority granted him in his office as a minister of the word, duly ordained and commissioned for the task. It is the Church forgiving sins, as she is commissioned to do by Our Lord, and he is the mouth and hands of the Church.

This idea..... ummm, not so cool. :o

 

[Albion]

Actually, in the Lutheran church the wording is "in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

I know, and it's approximately the same in the Book of Common Prayer, but it is important to note that the wording makes the minister the one authorized to proclaim the absolution yet always within the context of God being the one who actually forgives. I do think FWIW that that's a little bit stronger in the Anglican liturgy.

 

[TillICollapse]

A real world example:

I am going to have to let some of myself die tonight.

I flat-out lied to a man at church Sunday. No point going into it (it's long and involved), but suffice it to say I blurted out something to make myself look better in his eyes, and to bolster some sagging self-esteem I have been suffering through since the stoke.

I'm basically all too aware of limited performance issues now, and it hurts me emotionally. This lie I told was to try and bring back of some of the old me that I know I will never see again.

Anyway, if I see this guy tonight at church, I have decided to admit what a fool this old man has been in trying to look like someone I no longer am. This is going to be tough.

Will let you Guys know how it goes.

Durn! I wish I could just go confess this in a prayer closet somewhere.... he would never know the difference, anyway. But that is not how I read the Bible.

I didn't read the entire thread, but am jumping in at this point lol ... and I'm not responding to your own post directly, rather indirectly ...

IMO ... confession, repentance, and perhaps justice, all somewhat fall under the umbrella of "taking responsibility for one's actions".

I think often when we try and slice and dice up that concept of taking responsibility for our actions, we actually take away the EMPOWERMENT of what taking responsibility for our actions can entail.

For example: when we consider confession, it's often about *us*, not the victim whom we have sinned against, or the person on the receiving end of our bad choices. Our confession is often to relieve ourselves of guilt, conviction, fear, a tarnished self image, etc. IOW, it's often selfishly motivated. "I need to confess this, and ask this person to forgive me, so that I can feel better about the wrong I've done and receive forgiveness from God," etc. I'm not saying it's always self-centered, but it often seems to be the case.

However this arguably isn't taking responsibility for our actions: this is just acknowledging our actions, but not really "doing anything about it".

Let's say a person who horrifically murders another person, and then hides their murder ... finally one day decided to confess his sin to the family of the murdered person. On the one hand, it's great they will finally have the truth of whom murdered their loved one, etc ... but on the other hand, that doesn't really FIX the problem. The loved one is gone, and here is this murderer whom is wanting to get their forgiveness without any consequences.

If those family members actually forgave the murderer, and let him go free .... that would really be something. However often times, this wouldn't be the case. The family members would probably prefer justice ... i.e. imprisonment, etc. They can't replace the dead family member, but they can sleep better at night knowing that his murderer is behind bars. Perhaps it will give them a sense of closure.

Likewise .... if the murderer already killed someone, how does he know he won't kill again ? How does he know he's "changed", and he won't find himself in the same situation some other time and do the same things ? IOW ... how does he know he's not a "danger" to society ? So not only would confessing what he has done be the start of taking responsibility for his actions, but turning himself in and letting justice take over, or at least placing it in the hands of the victims family members ... begins to actually consider others and what would make them feel better, and not just his own burden of guilt.

IOW .... taking responsibility for one's actions involves: "This is the thing I have done which has wronged you, now how do I make up for it and fix it with you ?" ... it doesn't just involve, "This is the thing I have done which wronged you, now please forgive me and let me go do my own thing again ..."

One is selfishly motivated, the other considers those who are involved and what will help to begin right the wrong for them, if possible. I think this is empowering, because it involves loving others. It also keeps us from hiding behind our faith, and actually USING it. It's not about placing ultimate judgement in the hands of human beings, it can be about bearing fruit with others and ourselves as a whole. I think when we try to leave out parts of that taking responsibility, however, it's like trying to cut corners and circumvent some aspect of repentance as a whole. IMHO.

 

[Tangible]

This idea..... ummm, not so cool. :o

Why not? Don't you believe that Jesus gave the Church the authority to forgive and retain sins as it says in the bible?

As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20)

 

[Mama Kidogo]

A real world example:

I am going to have to let some of myself die tonight.

I flat-out lied to a man at church Sunday. No point going into it (it's long and involved), but suffice it to say I blurted out something to make myself look better in his eyes, and to bolster some sagging self-esteem I have been suffering through since the stoke.

I'm basically all too aware of limited performance issues now, and it hurts me emotionally. This lie I told was to try and bring back of some of the old me that I know I will never see again.

Anyway, if I see this guy tonight at church, I have decided to admit what a fool this old man has been in trying to look like someone I no longer am. This is going to be tough.

Will let you Guys know how it goes.

Durn! I wish I could just go confess this in a prayer closet somewhere.... he would never know the difference, anyway. But that is not how I read the Bible.

Very humble Willie. Just please don't assume confessing this to a priest would not end up with you doing what you propose to do.
There seems to be a misconception that a priest will say the prayer of absolution without instructing the wrong to be righted. It's not like you rob a bank and the priest says 'gone'. That may be the way portrayed in the Godfather but it's not Hollywood in the Church. It's very possible the priest would instruct such a sinner to turn himself over to the authorities and even return the booty.
I thank you for having the courage to share that. You are correct that confession can be very painful. Done publicly it can also bring you to ruin as many among us are not as forgiving as our God.
For years my husband was my priest and spiritual father. I confessed before him. Imagine doing this when your sin was entertaining impure thoughts of some other man.
But sin carries consequences. It should cause us to feel shame. It's easy to sin. it is not easy to contemplate the gravity of our sin as we can see the utter hatred in our sin.

 

[Albion]

Despite differences of opinion on this issue, we all do have to admit that we are called to repent, are we not?

It can be said that we are saved by Faith, and that's true--or we can say that the Cross or Jesus' sacrifice bought eternal life, etc., but we are still taught to repent of our sins. We do commit them, after all, even as saved persons. So that's the main reason IMO that we incorporate some sort of confession into our lives as members of the church.

There's no reason to think it's a sacrament or that the minister can arbitrarily judge the penitent's sincerity as a condition for forgiving anything confessed, but for there to be at least a General Confession prior to the reception of the Lord's Supper is entirely appropriate..

 

[concretecamper]

Despite differences of opinion on this issue, we all do have to admit that we are called to repent, are we not?

It can be said that we are saved by Faith, and that's true--or we can say that the Cross or Jesus' sacrifice bought eternal life, etc., but we are still taught to repent of our sins. We do commit them, after all, even as saved persons. So that's the main reason IMO that we incorporate some sort of confession into our lives as members of the church.

There's no reason to think it's a sacrament or that the minister can arbitrarily judge the penitent's sincerity as a condition for forgiving anything confessed, but for there to be at least a General Confession prior to the reception of the Lord's Supper is entirely appropriate..

What would be your reason then why Christ gave the Apostles the ability to retain sins?

 

[Rhamiel]

Which is exactly what that passage in James is speaking to. If you have sinned against a brother or sister go to them and confess it, make it right. Bravo Willie!

I agree with this
but how can we know who all we hurt with our sins?
we can not see the effects of every action

and there is the unity of all believers through the Holy Spirit

St. Paul writes 1 Corinthians chapter 12 that we are all one body but many parts, when one part suffers, the entire body suffers

this is one reason we go to confession to a priest, he is acting In Persona Christi, but he also represents the Church, the Body of Christ
we have sinned against God in our sins, but we have also sined agianst the Body of Christ as a whole, in choosing to be less then what we were meant to be, we have weakened the entire Body in our own little way

 

[Willie T]

Why not? Don't you believe that Jesus gave the Church the authority to forgive and retain sins as it says in the bible?

As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20)

One question I have always had of that passage: Did Jesus ever refuse to forgive anyone's sins?

The how does the interpretation you seem to have of this scripture make any sense, with that realization?

Are the disciple now given some mystic power to decide maybe to just not forgive some people who ask for forgiveness?

 

[Albion]

One question I have always had of that passage: Did Jesus ever refuse to forgive anyone's sins?

Are there all that many instances in the NT of him pronouncing the forgiveness of someone's sins?

 

[Rhamiel]

One question I have always had of that passage: Did Jesus ever refuse to forgive anyone's sins?

The how does the interpretation you seem to have of this scripture make any sense, with that realization?

Are the disciple now given some mystic power to decide maybe to just not forgive some people who ask for forgiveness?

in scripture, we do see the Apostles rebuking a person who has bad intentions and is looking for spiritual power

Simon Magus in Acts chapter 8 tries to buy the authoirty for te laying on of hands

this is not exactly what you were asking about, but it does show that sometimes the Apostles were called to act with discernment

 

[Willie T]

Personally, I think this passage (as it is written) means... "Go preach... if you lead them to conversion, their sins will be forgiven.... If you, instead, "withhold" the gospel from them (don't do your job I have given you to do), they will not be forgiven their sins."

I think this was a strong admonishment to the disciples to try their best to reach all men for Christ.

 

[Willie T]

Are there all that many instances in the NT of him pronouncing the forgiveness of someone's sins?

He, at one time seems to equate healing of their bodies with forgiveness of sins. (Not even going to pretend I fully understand that... but He did say it)

 

[cerette]

One question I have always had of that passage: Did Jesus ever refuse to forgive anyone's sins?

The how does the interpretation you seem to have of this scripture make any sense, with that realization?

Are the disciple now given some mystic power to decide maybe to just not forgive some people who ask for forgiveness?

The binding of sins would be used in cases where a Christian refuses to repent of a sin. Let's say it comes to the knowledge of the church that John Doe has fornicated (just an example of something obviously sinful) and someone (maybe the Pastor) talks to him about it, pointing out that it's wrong and he needs to repent of it..to which John Doe says "no way, I really enjoyed it and I don't regret it one bit, leave me alone!". In such a case, it would be utterly wrong to say to him: "Your sin is forgiven, go in peace", rather he should be told and warned that God does not approve of that attitude and that sin still stands in the way between him and God until he repents.

 

[Steeno7]

I agree with this
but how can we know who all we hurt with our sins?
we can not see the effects of every action

and there is the unity of all believers through the Holy Spirit

St. Paul writes 1 Corinthians chapter 12 that we are all one body but many parts, when one part suffers, the entire body suffers

this is one reason we go to confession to a priest, he is acting In Persona Christi, but he also represents the Church, the Body of Christ
we have sinned against God in our sins, but we have also sined agianst the Body of Christ as a whole, in choosing to be less then what we were meant to be, we have weakened the entire Body in our own little way

There is no need of a "representative", either for Christ or for the body. We have direct access to both.