Confession ...

[New Legacy]

I understand RC still tend to require particular acts of penance? Relating more to prayers, and being a penitant publicly?

Nooo... all things involving confession are private. Catholics generally are asked to say some prayers. Certain actions (fasting, doing good things) may be involved too.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Nooo... all things involving confession are private. Catholics generally are asked to say some prayers. Certain actions (fasting, doing good things) may be involved too.

Ah, ok, apparently I misunderstood something from your previous post ...

In the early centuries of the Church, minor sins were considered to be absolved upon receiving Eucharist and penance was carried out by various forms of penance - almsgiving, fasting, and other ascetic practices and good works.

The more serious sins needed to be confessed before the congregation. The person became a penitent. They no longer received communion and stood at the back of the Church, slightly separated from the rest of the people. After a year or more of engaging in some form of penance, their sins were absolved by the priest and they were readmitted into the congregation in good standing.

When the pagans invaded England, the Celtic peoples were pushed out and isolated from the rest of Catholicism. They had no parishes, everyone gathered in monasteries on Sunday. They were super monastic. When Christians began sending missionaries to northern Europe, they reconnected with the Celtics. Following 400 years of lack of communication, the Celtics had developed an interesting practice- the monks confessed all their sins to a priest and were absolved, then did penance.

The rest of Christianity accepted this practice and it caught on in a huge way. Now non-monks/nuns could speak with a priest, even about the little things, as a way of growing spiritually and moving away from sin.

I wasn't sure that that kind of penance had ended, sorry about that.

 

[Willie T]

This is the only explanation I've seen that makes any sense at all for the apostles being given the authority to retain sins. If anyone can come up with any other reasons/ideas, I'd be interested. I can't think of an instance of non-forgiveness though. Actually, this seems more like a "choice not to forgive" rather than actively retaining, but maybe I'm nit-picking.

Speaking of nit-picking, I saw your reply, Willie, and I thought about it. Would it be so wrong to warn a brother that he is in sin? (since you didn't like the last 14 words?) I can imagine I might have possibly said that to someone at some time - not that I recall. But it might have been appropriate under some circumstances?

Does a forgiven Christian's sin stand between them and God? Absolutely not. The Bible even states He has forgiven all of our sins (past, present, and future) and neither holds them against us nor even sees them.

Does our sinning grieve Him? Certainly... AND it may well affect the way we don't allow ourselves to "feel" close to God. The way WE may choose to tell ourselves we are now too bad to be near God. But there is no way in the world sin stands between us and God... we can enter boldly into the throne room at any time because NOTHING stands between us and God.

 

[New Legacy]

Ah, ok, apparently I misunderstood something from your previous post ...



I wasn't sure that that kind of penance had ended, sorry about that.

Sorry for the confusion. Yes, today confession is in no way PUBLIC.

 

[fhansen]

The binding of sins would be used in cases where a Christian refuses to repent of a sin. Let's say it comes to the knowledge of the church that John Doe has fornicated (just an example of something obviously sinful) and someone (maybe the Pastor) talks to him about it, pointing out that it's wrong and he needs to repent of it..to which John Doe says "no way, I really enjoyed it and I don't regret it one bit, leave me alone!". In such a case, it would be utterly wrong to say to him: "Your sin is forgiven, go in peace", rather he should be told and warned that God does not approve of that attitude and that sin still stands in the way between him and God until he repents.

This agrees with the teaching I believe in-basically that the disposition of the one confessing is as crucial as the words of absolution; without genuine contrition nothing is accomplished. Just as we can turn to God we can also turn back away from Him; He won't force us to remain in Him: to believe in, hope in, let alone to love Him, anymore than He forced Adam to- and true repentance is in order as Scripture makes clear if we're to return to justice in God's sight.

 

[cerette]

Does a forgiven Christian's sin stand between them and God? Absolutely not. The Bible even states He has forgiven all of our sins (past, present, and future) and neither holds them against us nor even sees them.

Does our sinning grieve Him? Certainly... AND it may well affect the way we don't allow ourselves to "feel" close to God. The way WE may choose to tell ourselves we are now too bad to be near God. But there is no way in the world sin stands between us and God... we can enter boldly into the throne room at any time because NOTHING stands between us and God.

Sounds like a free ticket to sin as much as you please, after all, all it does is grieve God a bit and maybe make us feel less good about ourselves.

I reject that idea and find it un-Biblical.

 

[Willie T]

Sounds like a free ticket to sin as much as you please, after all, all it does is grieve God a bit and maybe make us feel less good about ourselves.

I reject that idea and find it un-Biblical.

You're in interesting company. What you just said is exactly what people said to Paul for stating the same thing a couple of thousand years ago.

 

[stan1953]

Does a forgiven Christian's sin stand between them and God? Absolutely not. The Bible even states He has forgiven all of our sins (past, present, and future) and neither holds them against us nor even sees them.

Does our sinning grieve Him? Certainly... AND it may well affect the way we don't allow ourselves to "feel" close to God. The way WE may choose to tell ourselves we are now too bad to be near God. But there is no way in the world sin stands between us and God... we can enter boldly into the throne room at any time because NOTHING stands between us and God.

Unconfessed sin CERTAINLY does, which is why we are told to confess our sins if we sin.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Sounds like a free ticket to sin as much as you please, after all, all it does is grieve God a bit and maybe make us feel less good about ourselves.

I reject that idea and find it un-Biblical.

The idea is from the bible but from a poor or incomplete interpretation. Yes, Christ died for all sins both past present and future and He did it only once. But as John explains we are to access this forgiveness when we find ourselves in sin. If what Willie posted was accurate the authority to forgive and retain sins would have no use. As would John's warning that we should not sin. Yes sin still divides us from God (not the other way around as God loved us dearly while we were sinners)and repentance and forgiveness restores us.
Christ also died for the sins of the entire world but you don't hear Willie saying all the heathen's sins are gone.
I so wish Christians would give Hosea a good and heartfelt read. A picture of God's love toward his rebellious people is illustrated so well through that prophet. It is so heartbreaking as it shows how we treat our first love when we sin.

 

[stan1953]

Sounds like a free ticket to sin as much as you please, after all, all it does is grieve God a bit and maybe make us feel less good about ourselves.
I reject that idea and find it un-Biblical.

It may help to articulate what you find unbiblical and any scriptural references.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Unconfessed sin CERTAINLY does, which is why we are told to confess our sins if we sin.

Is it your view that unconfessed sin stands between a Christian and God in such a way that it severs the relationship, breaks the covenant, places the person with the unconfessed sin outside of the body of Christ, the household of faith?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Unconfessed sin CERTAINLY does, which is why we are told to confess our sins if we sin.

Unrepentant sinners let their sins separate them from God because they would rather keep their sins than come to God and humbly ask forgiveness. So you are right that one who sins and knows that they have sinned yet chooses not to confess their sins to God remains in their sins and is separated from God for as long as they choose their sins over God.

Now this is the message that we have heard from him and proclaim to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say, We have fellowship with him, while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie and do not act in truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we say, We are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:5-10
​

 

[~Anastasia~]

Does a forgiven Christian's sin stand between them and God? Absolutely not. The Bible even states He has forgiven all of our sins (past, present, and future) and neither holds them against us nor even sees them.

Does our sinning grieve Him? Certainly... AND it may well affect the way we don't allow ourselves to "feel" close to God. The way WE may choose to tell ourselves we are now too bad to be near God. But there is no way in the world sin stands between us and God... we can enter boldly into the throne room at any time because NOTHING stands between us and God.

Hmmmmm. I am not looking to argue with you, Willie, but I'd like to explore this a bit if you don't mind? Please don't take offense. I may need to clarify some of what you mean.

(And I still need to look up all the passages Steeno provided when I asked him about the "already forgiven, past present future" but I wanted to begin this conversation while I'm remembering to do it)

I don't believe sin separates us from God in the way that we fall in and out of salvation all day as we commit sins (even tiny ones). I was taught that at a couple of churches, and I just don't buy it - at ALL.

I think discussing whether or not sin "costs us our salvation" is a whole other issue. I will say that while I can't give you Scripture (need to look into that one too) - my feeling right now is that it depends on the sin, the purposefulness, and the heart.

Minor, especially unintentional sins - say we look over at someone and have a fleeting negative thought about them - I think we really should recognize these things and confess in prayer to God, but probably there is no real effect.

Fairly major sins - we decide we want to steal our neighbor's lawnmower because he left it out over the weekend and we really need one - well, I think that will majorly break our fellowship with God and put all our other prayers to no effect, and needs to be confessed and really should be given back - maybe along with a full can of gas as restitution. But I don't think we're necessarily "unsaved" over it. However, if we choose our sin over God and refuse to repent or confess, I think we are starting to get into the next category.

On the other hand, if we simply decide we're tired of living by God's standards and turn our backs and set about living in whatever sins we see we want to do - many will probably be fairly gross sins - then I would have to say we've tossed away our own salvation at that point.

I may be wrong on something in here, I freely admit. That's where I stand right now, not having re-examined every point. (Will I ever finish?)

I guess what I mean is that I do believe our sin can really stand between us and God - as in make our prayers to no effect.

And I believe it's possible to lose our salvation - not every sin is forgiven from the moment of salvation, no matter how bad the sin or how determined we are to hold onto the sin and place it over God.

I can certainly relate to your second paragraph - I know we can let some little sin bother us - and the enemy will try to condemn us over it - to the point that we feel unworthy to approach God at all if we listen - I KNOW that can happen, and our "feelings" are not from God or accurate in that case.

But I wasn't quite sure how far you meant to include things in the first paragraph?

Thanks for your post, btw.

 

[Willie T]

Hmmmmm. I am not looking to argue with you, Willie, but I'd like to explore this a bit if you don't mind? Please don't take offense. I may need to clarify some of what you mean.

(And I still need to look up all the passages Steeno provided when I asked him about the "already forgiven, past present future" but I wanted to begin this conversation while I'm remembering to do it)

I don't believe sin separates us from God in the way that we fall in and out of salvation all day as we commit sins (even tiny ones). I was taught that at a couple of churches, and I just don't buy it - at ALL. Actually all the Bible ever says we "fall out of" is Grace. And what does that mean? I think it means no more than that we fall back into trying to follow the law.... with God standing there, shaking His head, saying, "Is she ever going to wise up, and realize I love her no matter what?"

I think discussing whether or not sin "costs us our salvation" is a whole other issue. I will say that while I can't give you Scripture (need to look into that one too) - my feeling right now is that it depends on the sin, the purposefulness, and the heart.

Minor, especially unintentional sins - say we look over at someone and have a fleeting negative thought about them - I think we really should recognize these things and confess in prayer to God, but probably there is no real effect.

Fairly major sins - we decide we want to steal our neighbor's lawnmower because he left it out over the weekend and we really need one - well, I think that will majorly break our fellowship with God and put all our other prayers to no effect, and needs to be confessed and really should be given back - maybe along with a full can of gas as restitution. But I don't think we're necessarily "unsaved" over it. However, if we choose our sin over God and refuse to repent or confess, I think we are starting to get into the next category.

On the other hand, if we simply decide we're tired of living by God's standards and turn our backs and set about living in whatever sins we see we want to do - many will probably be fairly gross sins - then I would have to say we've tossed away our own salvation at that point. A point we often miss is that only God knows our hearts....Often times WE don't even really know what we truly feel in our hearts. You could be right in this part, but I wouldn't be too quick to jump right on this idea.

I may be wrong on something in here, I freely admit. That's where I stand right now, not having re-examined every point. (Will I ever finish?)

I guess what I mean is that I do believe our sin can really stand between us and God - as in make our prayers to no effect. Then how could God hear the prayer, "Please forgive me?" This was the whole point of the parable of the Prodigal Son. The boy was not the least bit repentant (read it) he was simply hungry. He even practiced a speech he figured might secure him a job with his father's hired hands so he could eat. (He FELT totally out of fellowship) But what was the father's (God's) reaction? First, no fellowship was broken... he had actually been looking way out on the horizon for the boy. Then he ran to him, fell on his neck, and kissed him. Broken fellowship? No, since the boy had not yet expressed any repentance.... In fact, he never does. The father just grabs him in total, never broken for an instant, fellowship. He is immediately robed and ringed, and celebrated over.

And I believe it's possible to lose our salvation - not every sin is forgiven from the moment of salvation, no matter how bad the sin or how determined we are to hold onto the sin and place it over God. How much is "ALL" your sins? (Or did you simply mistype what you really meant there?)

I can certainly relate to your second paragraph - I know we can let some little sin bother us - and the enemy will try to condemn us over it - to the point that we feel unworthy to approach God at all if we listen - I KNOW that can happen, and our "feelings" are not from God or accurate in that case.

But I wasn't quite sure how far you meant to include things in the first paragraph?

Thanks for your post, btw.

....

 

[~Anastasia~]

Heres a few: 2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:14, Colossians 2:13, Colossians 3:13, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 4:32, 1 John 2:12, Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17.

Thank you for providing those. I will add them here, for the sake of completeness.

2 Corinthians 5:19
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I need to think about this one some more.

Colossians 1:14
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Unless I am missing something, this one doesn't quite provide the level of assurance of "all future sins forgiven no matter what" that I looking to see if it's there, though I see your point.

Colossians 2:13
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Colossians 3:13
12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

This one is interesting, as it encourages ongoing forgiveness and does say "as the Lord forgave you" ... but it seems also to be past tense "forgave" ... so on the surface to me it is a bit enigmatic and I'd have to try to look into it more closely to be sure.

Ephesians 1:7
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

This passage is very interesting. But after reflecting on it for a while, what I see (I may be wrong) is that it is talking about the apostles, having been predestined to their position, and were the first in Him in order to fulfill His purposes, and that they go on to speak to others who also believed after receiving the Gospel.

So I get something out of it, but not exactly what you intended. This one was very interesting to reflect on though. Thank you.

Ephesians 4:32
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

1 John 2:12
12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.

Hebrews 8:12
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord. 10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. 11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ For all will know Me, From the least to the greatest of them. 12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more.”

That's one of the things I was looking for - that God will not remember (I take this to mean, bring to His mind) our sins.

Hebrews 10:17
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [g]sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,” He then says, 17 “And their sins and their lawless deeds
I will remember no more.”

Of course a reiteration of the first. However, it is strongly weakened in context as an argument that all sins, including future ones will be forgiven. I see the context talking about Jesus' sacrifice being sufficient for all time, in that there was no need for further sacrifices as had to be continually offered under the old covenant. But it is followed by explicit warning of sins not being forgiven (to the degree that I believe it is saying one's salvation is in danger).

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Thank you for the list, Steeno. I will have to look at a few of them more carefully to see if there is not more there.

I think I would have to consider the larger context of what the whole passage means to say, as well as specifically what certain words mean (particularly tenses, etc. since we are talking about past, present, future here specifically).

Thank you again for providing those.

Any comments anyone wishes to make are welcome.

 

[Willie T]

Thank you for providing those. I will add them here, for the sake of completeness.



I need to think about this one some more.



Unless I am missing something, this one doesn't quite provide the level of assurance of "all future sins forgiven no matter what" that I looking to see if it's there, though I see your point.





This one is interesting, as it encourages ongoing forgiveness and does say "as the Lord forgave you" ... but it seems also to be past tense "forgave" ... so on the surface to me it is a bit enigmatic and I'd have to try to look into it more closely to be sure.



This passage is very interesting. But after reflecting on it for a while, what I see (I may be wrong) is that it is talking about the apostles, having been predestined to their position, and were the first in Him in order to fulfill His purposes, and that they go on to speak to others who also believed after receiving the Gospel.

So I get something out of it, but not exactly what you intended. This one was very interesting to reflect on though. Thank you.







That's one of the things I was looking for - that God will not remember (I take this to mean, bring to His mind) our sins.



Of course a reiteration of the first. However, it is strongly weakened in context as an argument that all sins, including future ones will be forgiven. I see the context talking about Jesus' sacrifice being sufficient for all time, in that there was no need for further sacrifices as had to be continually offered under the old covenant. But it is followed by explicit warning of sins not being forgiven (to the degree that I believe it is saying one's salvation is in danger).

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Thank you for the list, Steeno. I will have to look at a few of them more carefully to see if there is not more there.

I think I would have to consider the larger context of what the whole passage means to say, as well as specifically what certain words mean (particularly tenses, etc. since we are talking about past, present, future here specifically).

Thank you again for providing those.

Any comments anyone wishes to make are welcome.

Yes..... I would caution against the tempting draw of law. It is the milk of "Milk & Meat".

Didn't every one of the Jews already know and practice all the "laws" to secure and maintain their salvation? That was the "Milk" they had to learn to move on from, into the "Meat" of the scary realm of just simply trusting that Jesus already did (and would keep on doing) what they had been doing for themselves all those years.

 

[cerette]

Jesus died for ALL sins on Calvary's cross. Even the sins of those in hell.
However, an unrepentant person does not own this forgiveness, and so their sin is in the way between them and God.
If you have a Christian, who is unrepentant about something s/he knows is sin, then s/he is in a very serious condition.
It's true that forgiveness was won for ALL sins by Christ on the cross, but that does not mean we can go on sinning "because they've already been forgiven". The forgiveness is objectively available [because Jesus died for ALL sins], but is it subjectively received through faith? Not in cases of unrepentance.

 

[cerette]

It may help to articulate what you find unbiblical and any scriptural references.

My first sentence in that post articulated what I found unBiblical. (That it would somehow be OK to sin because Jesus already died for all sins.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thanks, Willie

I'll try to sort out what you said - if I miss anything, let me know.

Actually all the Bible ever says we "fall out of" is Grace. And what does that mean? I think it means no more than that we fall back into trying to follow the law.... with God standing there, shaking His head, saying, "Is she ever going to wise up, and realize I love her no matter what?"

You know, you raise a very interesting point for me. This is part of that "unlearning" before I can look at things clearly. Yes, the Bible DOES say we "fall from grace" and the thing is, I guess I was taught that that MEANS that we have basically lost our salvation. Maybe the problem is my understanding of what it means. It's kind of funny, because I was reflecting the other day how Paul (was it?) told someone that because they were trying to follow the Law now and justify themselves by it that they had fallen from grace, and I wondered whether they lost their salvation because they tried to justify themselves through the law (you have to admit, that means one is no longer trusting in Christ, so it seems reasonable on some level). And further I wondered if the condition could be remedied - which it seems ought to be possible, even in light of a few verses in Hebrews that seem to possibly make dire predictions otherwise. (I say possibly because they are really addressing other conditions, I believe and IIRC.)

Thanks for bringing that up though - it bears looking at more closely if I'm even understanding what Paul meant when he said that.

Kylissa: On the other hand, if we simply decide we're tired of living by God's standards and turn our backs and set about living in whatever sins we see we want to do - many will probably be fairly gross sins - then I would have to say we've tossed away our own salvation at that point.

A point we often miss is that only God knows our hearts....Often times WE don't even really know what we truly feel in our hearts. You could be right in this part, but I wouldn't be too quick to jump right on this idea.

Well, I agree with not being too quick. I'm not set on it myself. As I said:

I may be wrong on something in here, I freely admit. That's where I stand right now, not having re-examined every point. (Will I ever finish?)

And there are so many situations to consider. I have seen people who were apparently apostates who would blaspheme God and say things that made me cringe. And yet ... there is something in them that causes them to keep reaching out, in a way. THEY claim to have purposely walked away, but I see in them a possibility that it is not true. Of course, I don't know. And as you say, even they may not know. Only God knows. So I do certainly agree with you on that point.

At any rate, I don't presume to judge their position in God. In the same way, one could be a total hypocrite and say all the right things. Again, I can't presume to judge. God knows.

Kylissa: I guess what I mean is that I do believe our sin can really stand between us and God - as in make our prayers to no effect.

Then how could God hear the prayer, "Please forgive me?" This was the whole point of the parable of the Prodigal Son. The boy was not the least bit repentant (read it) he was simply hungry. He even practiced a speech he figured might secure him a job with his father's hired hands so he could eat. (He FELT totally out of fellowship) But what was the father's (God's) reaction? First, no fellowship was broken... he had actually been looking way out on the horizon for the boy. Then he ran to him, fell on his neck, and kissed him. Broken fellowship? No, since the boy had not yet expressed any repentance.... In fact, he never does. The father just grabs him in total, never broken for an instant, fellowship. He is immediately robed and ringed, and celebrated over.

Ha, I should have qualified it. I believe God ALWAYS hears sincere prayers of repentance. How else could anyone ask for forgiveness? I believe I said that to someone here on the forums just a couple of days ago.

You do however bring up a very good point with the prodigal son. I do believe that God waits for us to return to Him.

But specifically speaking about prayer, I really have some strong impressions from Scripture about this. I had to go look them up.

The most direct I can point to is 1 Peter

3:7 You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Which specifically warns that simply not treating a man's wife in the right way can be a hindrance to his prayer (and I am assuming the hindrance is on the end of God hearing/listening/or answering - instead of the man not praying himself - it really does seem the most reasonable position since a self-righteous man could treat his wife horribly and still pray extensively).

And he goes right on to say:
8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For, “The one who desires life, to love and see good days, Must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit. 11 “He must turn away from evil and do good; He must seek peace and pursue it. 12 “For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, And His ears attend to their prayer, But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”

"Be good, turn away from evil, because God listens to the prayers of the righteous" ... does that not possibly imply that it is possible not to do good, and the result would be the opposite - that God would not listen to their prayers?

A little weaker, but since he IS talking to believers, it makes sense to me.

And in the next chapter, he says

7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Peter is saying we should do these things for the purpose of prayer - which makes me think that if we don't behave as we should, prayers will then suffer in some way.

I know David also talks (I think in several places) of the Lord not hearing prayers (potentially his own prayers) because of doing evil, but since that is OT I will leave it with Peter's words above.

I really do think that our prayers are either not heard, ignored, made less effective, etc. because we are not right with God, and that's what I meant by saying that there was a problem in our relationship with Him at that time.

There is also:
James 5
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

From the original question. It talks about confessing sins to one another (if you want to include that in the qualification since it directly precedes) ... but specifically mentions a righteous man's prayer accomplishing much.

Kylissa: And I believe it's possible to lose our salvation - not every sin is forgiven from the moment of salvation, no matter how bad the sin or how determined we are to hold onto the sin and place it over God.

How much is "ALL" your sins? (Or did you simply mistype what you really meant there?)

I'm sorry, I'm not sure which "all" you meant? I may have mistyped or said something in an awkward way.

What I meant is that, yes, our sins are forgiven. But

(case number 1) if we deliberately sin, and we KNOW we should confess it and repent (I'm going on my own assumption that we SHOULD confess our sins to God) - and we simply refuse to confess because we don't want to - our desire not to confess is more important to us than the directive of God that we should confess (again I am assuming this), and/or

(case number 2) we just love our sin more than we love God, and we choose to abandon Him for the sake of keeping our sin -

then I think those sins (certainly the second case, and possibly the first - I am not sure of that one) are not necessarily covered by the Cross (because we refuse to avail ourselves of it). And can cost our salvation, in the case of the second (and possibly the first - I am not sure on that count).

I hope that made sense and answered your question of what I meant? As i said, I'm not completely set on the first case as far as it costing salvation, though I have serious concerns - I can't prove them and am open to correction on that count.

But in the case of the 2nd - I think we have chosen to abandon our salvation and while it may be possible to repent (or I think we may reach a stage where we no longer can), if we fail to do so, I think we are lost.

As I said, I'm open to correction. But yes, that's where I am right now.

Thanks for your post.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Jesus died for ALL sins on Calvary's cross. Even the sins of those in hell.
However, an unrepentant person does not own this forgiveness, and so their sin is in the way between them and God.
If you have a Christian, who is unrepentant about something s/he knows is sin, then s/he is in a very serious condition.
It's true that forgiveness was won for ALL sins by Christ on the cross, but that does not mean we can go on sinning "because they've already been forgiven". The forgiveness is objectively available [because Jesus died for ALL sins], but is it subjectively received through faith? Not in cases of unrepentance.

I find this to be a the heart of it all.

You made a good point, Cerette, that the unrepentant sinners who never accept God's forgiveness in the first place and so are the "unsaved" ... they are not forgiven.

Oh, darn, the way I worded that actually walked me into the opposite corner. LOL!!! (Trying to keep all positions in mind when I word things makes it awkward sometimes!)

Hmmm, I'm making a point to myself now.

I know some teach God forgives, and we must accept (by not refusing) the forgiveness. I think that is your own position, Cerette? Ah, but then does sin after initial justification only require "acceptance" of forgiveness, rather than actual pursuit of it, the same way in which you would not say people actively pursue their relationship with God? But I think maybe ... you would say the first work is God's alone, and the sanctification that follows requires man's cooperation - so that would be your answer to this question?

Ok, what I MEANT to get at before I put myself in that awkward corner ...

Is that if one believes we must come to God and seek initial forgiveness ... then that is necessary and those who don't are never forgiven. But the follow up is - do we need to continue to seek forgiveness after that?

I guess I would say yes - and how can we ignore 1 John 1:9?

It seems (and I'm not picking on you guys, just trying to identify positions!) but it seems that Willie and Steeno (not picking on you guys!) are maintaining that it is no longer necessary to ask forgiveness anymore? Do I understand you right?

Willie, I am having a hard time understanding your point that you believe in seeking forgiveness from a man (the lie you mentioned about correcting at church last night - btw I admire your intention to do that, and I'm very sorry to hear that you are having to struggle with some situations as far as your health and limitations from that) ... but I'm a little at a loss to understand seeking forgiveness from a man and not from God. I think I see your different positions. But a sin against any man is also a sin against God. (Of course the man did not already forgive you, so I do think I see what you are saying.) It's just hard for me to understand.

Thanks, everyone.