Confession ...

[New Legacy]

The authority to forgive sins in God's name was given to Christ's church. Even the Roman Catholic Church, which is probably better known for making Confession a sacrament and whose administration of it has been featured in numerous movies , didn't make it a sacrament until more than a thousand years after Christ, and even then did not automatically permit every priest to hear confessions merely as a result of being ordained.

You are either misinformed or being intellectually dishonest. This is similar to the fundie arguments that "The Catholic Church did not believe ___ until (insert date it was declared as a dogma).

The Church did not definitively arrive at what was or wasn't a sacrament until a thousand years ago with a more systematic approach to theology. They decided to declare seven things sacraments, among the various things that were considered to be possible sacraments, including things such as the homily.

Priests at various points could not hear confession if they did not receive faculties for it. Even though a man was ordained, he was not given immediate access to sacraments until he demonstrated he could properly offer them.

The ability to absolve sins was absolutely not given to the Church. It was given to the apostles, who gave it to bishops, who gave it to priests.

 

[stan1953]

I'm sorry Albion, I'm a little confused. Is your point that the entire body of believers are authorized to forgive sins?
Thank you.

We are commanded to forgive those who sin against us. We are NOT able to forgive sin itself but just the result of how it impacts our lives. If we hold it against someone then their sin isn't forgiven until we forgive them. Matt 5:23
Sin is forgiven by Jesus when we accept Him as our Savior.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

so only God has the authority to forgive sins, but as we see in James 5, God can also delegate this authority to His Disciples

But the authority still belongs to God. He (Christ) also gave then authority to heal the sick but it is still the power of God that accomplishes this.
You are spot on and AS is very important. John 20:23 shows the authority being given and to whom it was given. I was reading various commentaries on that verse. The best was the shortest and it said, "It means what it says."

 

[fhansen]

No, it's that the church has received that commission, not special confessors as in the famous priest in the booth hearing people's confessions from behind the grate.

This is why some of the Apostolic churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, have a "General Confession" of sins recited by the whole congregation during the worship service (as we can see in the words of the Didache that our friend "fhansen" presented to us a few posts back).

The Anglicans and Lutherans do it the way they do precisely because they're not apostolic churches, just churches that made up there own rules more or less divorced from a direct historic legacy. The apostolic churches, OTOH, east and west, just happen to both have an ancient legacy of confessing to priests or elders or at least guides specifically permitted by the bishop to hear confessions. Believe it or not they did this even before Hollywood got wind of it.

 

[New Legacy]

I am trying to reconcile things I read in Scripture, and I know there are different interpretations of these things. I would appreciate hearing different viewpoints and the reason for interpreting them that way. I really need reasons, if you know of any, because I see "what it says".

Please everyone try to be respectful. I know this question crosses denominational lines.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is NASB. The Living Bible says "if we confess our sins to Him" but all the other translations I can find say basically the same as this. I have always taken it to mean that we confess to God, and I really see no other reason to interpret this any differently.

And of course, we have OT precedence to confess to God, through the Psalms in many places:
Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

And of course it is the Pharisees talking in verses like this, but we have several that are against Jesus such as Mark 2:7 which indicate at the least that the religious thought was that only God could forgive sins.
"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

And yet of course there are such as these:

James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

John 20
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

When I read online, I find reference to Matt 16 connected to this:
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

To be honest, this is one I was actually not wanting to consider, but now I have to deal with what is actually there.

Input?

In the early centuries of the Church, minor sins were considered to be absolved upon receiving Eucharist and penance was carried out by various forms of penance - almsgiving, fasting, and other ascetic practices and good works.

The more serious sins needed to be confessed before the congregation. The person became a penitent. They no longer received communion and stood at the back of the Church, slightly separated from the rest of the people. After a year or more of engaging in some form of penance, their sins were absolved by the priest and they were readmitted into the congregation in good standing.

When the pagans invaded England, the Celtic peoples were pushed out and isolated from the rest of Catholicism. They had no parishes, everyone gathered in monasteries on Sunday. They were super monastic. When Christians began sending missionaries to northern Europe, they reconnected with the Celtics. Following 400 years of lack of communication, the Celtics had developed an interesting practice- the monks confessed all their sins to a priest and were absolved, then did penance.

The rest of Christianity accepted this practice and it caught on in a huge way. Now non-monks/nuns could speak with a priest, even about the little things, as a way of growing spiritually and moving away from sin.

 

[New Legacy]

But the authority still belongs to God. He (Christ) also gave then authority to heal the sick but it is still the power of God that accomplishes this.
You are spot on and AS is very important. John 20:23 shows the authority being given and to whom it was given. I was reading various commentaries on that verse. The best was the shortest and it said, "It means what it says."

Absolutely, the priest does nothing on his own. He is just declaring what God is doing.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Absolutely, the priest does nothing on his own. He is just declaring what God is doing.

Both yes and no. There is an authority given of Christ . But without God it is of no use.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The Anglicans and Lutherans do it the way they do precisely because they're not apostolic churches, just churches that made up there own rules more or less divorced from a direct historic legacy. The apostolic churches, OTOH, east and west, just happen to both have an ancient legacy of confessing to priests or elders or at least guides specifically permitted by the bishop to hear confessions. Believe it or not they did this even before Hollywood got wind of it.

Do Catholics not also have a general confession prayer? We do depending on the local priest but it is not a replacement for private confession.

 

[Albion]

The Anglicans and Lutherans do it the way they do precisely because they're not apostolic churches

Oh well, that's just your denominational loyalty being demonstrated for your own gratification. It doesn't impress me in particular since I've hear the whole line many times before...and it certainly doesn't do anything to help our inquirer understand this doctrinal issue better.

 

[fhansen]

Do Catholics not also have a general confession prayer? We do depending on the local priest but it is not a replacement for private confession.

Yes, "General Absolution" may be given in certain special cases where the normative way is not possible.

 

[fhansen]

Oh well, that's just your denominational loyalty being demonstrated for your own gratification. It doesn't impress me in particular since I've hear the whole line many times before...and it certainly doesn't do anything to help our inquirer understand this doctrinal issue better.

The historical practices of the church regarding this matter are a quite reasonable place to look into.

 

[New Legacy]

Both yes and no. There is an authority given of Christ . But without God it is of no use.

Absolutely. This is a very nuanced thing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Do Catholics not also have a general confession prayer? We do depending on the local priest but it is not a replacement for private confession.

General confession - I am gathering this means the congregation recites some kind of generic list of sins, and since many of them may be committed by various members - they are then forgiven of these?

 

[New Legacy]

Do Catholics not also have a general confession prayer? We do depending on the local priest but it is not a replacement for private confession.

What do you mean by a general confession prayer? We do not use that phrase so we are left to guess

At Mass we offer a prayer as a kind of general confession.
We have penance services, which is a liturgy focused on penance and ended by private confession.
We have general absolution, which is given by priests before a battle or some catastrophe. If you survive, you need to confess your sins.

 

[New Legacy]

General confession - I am gathering this means the congregation recites some kind of generic list of sins, and since many of them may be committed by various members - they are then forgiven of these?

The Confiteor (from Confess) is prayed by Catholics at Mass.


I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

 

[~Anastasia~]

do not worry about your question being too "basic"
these are complex questions you are asking

Jesus is not a slave to the sacraments

for example, Mark 16:16 talks about how those who believe and are baptized will be saved

but then we have the Good Thief on the cross next to Jesus, the Good Thief was never baptized and yet he was saved

So, I would say that the Sacrament of Confession is not the only way that God forgives sins
but I would say that it is the "normal" way that God forgives sins

there is the idea of "Perfect Contrition" where someone is completely and totally sorry for their sins but does not have the opportunity to go to the Sacrament of Confession, we believe that the person is forgiven

remember, all repentance is a grace from God
it is only through Him calling us that our hearts are moved to repent

Ah, sorry, I must have "filed" those things in another place in my mind. I actually had already heard of venial and mortal sins, and know about perfect contrition.

Thanks for explaining though. I am sorry - I should have remembered.

I can still appreciate that repentance is made possible by God. Thank you.

 

[ebia]

General confession - I am gathering this means the congregation recites some kind of generic list of sins, and since many of them may be committed by various members - they are then forgiven of these?

In an Anglican setting its a generalised prayer of confession for all our sins, followed by absolution.

Eg:

All
Almighty God, our heavenly Father,
we have sinned against you
and against our neighbour
in thought and word and deed,
through negligence, through weakness,
through our own deliberate fault.
We are truly sorry
and repent of all our sins.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
who died for us,
forgive us all that is past
and grant that we may serve you in newness of life
to the glory of your name.
Amen.

 

[Rhamiel]

Do Catholics not also have a general confession prayer? We do depending on the local priest but it is not a replacement for private confession.

mhm, it is a part of the Mass, though there are a few different versions used.

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God

Confiteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mama Kidogo]

General confession - I am gathering this means the congregation recites some kind of generic list of sins, and since many of them may be committed by various members - they are then forgiven of these?

I don't think there is an absolute answer for that question. Normally, a general confession when used is not a place for absolution to be granted but more a tool to help one become repentant as it's general in nature and not at all specific as to the sin one has wallowed in. Usually private confession is required.
A general confession is more akin to one saying , "God be merciful to me a sinner' then asking forgiveness for siphoning the neighbors gas out of his car. One is a proclamation and the other might require a visit to the neighbor with a full can of gas.
In Orthodoxy repairing a wrong is often required except when it's not possible as it demonstrates true repentance.

I see something being left aside in this discussion. Laity forgiving sins. The layman can also forgive a sin committed against them personally. While this may not assure it's forgiven from above it does keep the layman from committing a sin himself as unforgiveness is indeed a sin. (The Lord's prayer comes to mind and the IF after that prayer stands out)

 

[Mama Kidogo]

mhm, it is a part of the Mass, though there are a few different versions used.

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God

Confiteor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So absolution is not granted normally by this? It seems more like a request for prayer than a true private confession.