Conditional salvation??

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
Wrong. My signature is talking about the need to actually live the Christian life. Nothing I said contradicts that.

I did not say it contradicts it. I said it destroys it. There is no motivation in OSAS to do what your signature says. Those are lofty words if one wants rewards in the next life and is prepared to give up rewards in this life for them, the former being unknown.

My point is that the forgiveness that Jesus is referring is about the daily experience of forgiveness. Jesus is not saying that God is going to take away the forgiveness we were granted when we were saved. We need to forgive others on a daily basis in order to being forgiven by God on a daily basis, to experience His peace. Salvation is not what Jesus had in view. I don't think you really understand my signature in the light of this conversation and in the light what I am talking about.

Do you understand your signature, frankly speaking? Next time explain it if you think that instead of insulting those who disagree with you.

YOu have destroyed the warning JEsus gave about harboring unforgiveness. You have turned it into missing the peace of God, if one wants that. The parable is about a man who WAS forgiven whose forgiveness was REMOVED and he had to go to jail for not paying his debts. The forgiveness was REMOVED. That is exactly what JEsus is saying. But you destroy the warning by deciding to change to not have God's peace. There are those who prefer to nurse their grievences rather than experience peace. For them, the warning says nothing worth listening to. Your theology destroys the warning by substituting the reward of peace if one obeys and forgives.

SeventhFisherofMen · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

To answer your question yes you need to forgive in order to be forgiven, that is a condition clearly stated to be followed by Jesus. And to not be forgiven by Jesus and to not be given mercy means to not make it to Heaven, not a simple loss of rewords but rather a loss of salvation.

P.S. once saved always saved doctrine does not apply to Christianity and is not a thing anywhere mentioned in the Bible.

Justified112 · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
So what is salvation from if forgivness of sins and salvaton are two different things? What are you saved from?

Hell. I am saved from Hell. But what Jesus is talking about refers to our sanctification, not our justification. Do you know for 100% certain that you have forgiven everyone in your life? Do you want to your entire eternal destiny to rest on YOUR efforts, or do you prefer your eternal destiny to rest upon the work of Christ on the cross?? Upon what does your assurance of salvation rest? You or works or Jesus' sacrifice?

Does Jesus decide who is saved and does it all?

Yes. Salvation = Jesus + 0.

Do we need to believe? If salvation depends upon believing, does that must us and not Jesus responsible for our salvation? Or is he making us beieve? Why doesn't he make everyone believe since the Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish?

Salvation doesn't depend on believing. It depends on sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It depends on Jesus, not us. We simply receive His gift of eternal life purchased for us on the cross, by faith and faith is more than just "believing."

I will tell you how it works for those who hear his voice and follow Jesus. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us and show us our sin, real sins done. We also rely on the Holy Spirit to convict us if we have not forgiven others. We ask Him to show us any unforgiveness or sins. "See if there be any secret sins in me" is the prayer we offer. And we trust Him to do so. So no, we are not relying upon ourselves but the HS. And no, we do not require us to have confessed 100% of all sins nor 100% of all unforgiveness. We rely on God to show us and we aim not to "quench the Holy Spirit" when he does. This is how it works.

If the argument is that salvation depends on having forgiven others, there is nothing less than 100% that will do because God doesn't compromise or make exceptions. You are either trusting yourself for salvation and depending on your works, or you are trusting Jesus for salvation. Forgiveness is the product of our salvation; if we are truly saved, forgiveness will be in operation in our lives. It will come out in our daily interactions with others.

Justified112 · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I did not say it contradicts it. I said it destroys it. There is no motivation in OSAS to do what your signature says. Those are lofty words if one wants rewards in the next life and is prepared to give up rewards in this life for them, the former being unknown.

Do you understand your signature, frankly speaking? Next time explain it if you think that instead of insulting those who disagree with you.

No, you really don't understand the signature and you don't understand salvation, as is clear from your posts. OSAS is predicated on a person who is genuinely saved and living for Jesus. Those who are saved will demonstrate it by their works.

My signature is about living for Jesus even at personal cost and only those who have full assurance of faith can do that. Those who think their salvation depends upon their own efforts continually fail because they are trusting in self and not trusting Jesus. Jesus will not share glory with anyone and either you trusting in Him 100% or you are trusting in your works for salvation.

YOu have destroyed the warning JEsus gave about harboring unforgiveness.

No, I didn't. Those who are saved won't harbor unforgiveness. What I destroyed is the ability of people like you to put others under condemnation and tell them that their salvation depends on themselves and not on Jesus.

You have turned it into missing the peace of God, if one wants that. The parable is about a man who WAS forgiven whose forgiveness was REMOVED and he had to go to jail for not paying his debts. The forgiveness was REMOVED. That is exactly what JEsus is saying. But you destroy the warning by deciding to change to not have God's peace. There are those who prefer to nurse their grievences rather than experience peace. For them, the warning says nothing worth listening to. Your theology destroys the warning by substituting the reward of peace if one obeys and forgives.

I have not destroyed that warning at all because it is not about losing salvation. It is about losing the blessings of forgiveness and the experience of God's forgiveness and falling rather, under the judgement of God. God judges us as Christians, in this life, if we are disobedient. He doesn't revoke our salvation.

If God revokes our salvation, He is not faithful to His Word.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
Hell. I am saved from Hell. But what Jesus is talking about refers to our sanctification, not our justification. Do you know for 100% certain that you have forgiven everyone in your life? Do you want to your entire eternal destiny to rest on YOUR efforts, or do you prefer your eternal destiny to rest upon the work of Christ on the cross?? Upon what does your assurance of salvation rest? You or works or Jesus' sacrifice?

Well, I explained this is a different post above, but I am glad to do it again. I know the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. That is how I know I am his. When he tells me I need to forgive, I am to do that and get his help. This has been successful and is still a project for some really evil people in my world. Me eternal destiny lays on my knowing God and walking with HIm in fellowship. Do you think that is a "work?"

Salvation doesn't depend on believing. It depends on sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. It depends on Jesus, not us. We simply receive His gift of eternal life purchased for us on the cross, by faith and faith is more than just "believing."

You will probably not see the contradiction in the above but I will try to point it out. First you say, "salvation doesn't depend on believing" then you say "we simply receive His give of eternal life ....by faith" which you play with words by deciding arbitrarily that faith is not believing. The dictionary will tell you it is. But what is the difference between faith and believing other than one is a noun and the other a verb? If it depends on Jesus, why do we need to do anything at all including "receive by faith?" Why did none of the apostles say that salvation doesn't depend upon believing? Why did Paul tell the jailer he needed to repent and believe if it all depends upon Jesus?

Your theology leaves you with inconsistancies. I do understand them and see them clearly. You likely want to make it all Jesus but know that you have to insert a small print clause that we need to believe/receive by faith making us indeed responsible for some part. You want Jesus to be solely responsible for you not going to hell but cannot help admit that something on your part plays a role.

If the argument is that salvation depends on having forgiven others, there is nothing less than 100% that will do because God doesn't compromise or make exceptions.

I know God and He is not like that. You are painting Him and unjust and unmerciful. We are responsible for the sins He makes us aware of.

You are either trusting yourself for salvation and depending on your works, or you are trusting Jesus for salvation. Forgiveness is the product of our salvation; if we are truly saved, forgiveness will be in operation in our lives. It will come out in our daily interactions with others.

I am not trusting in myself for salvation but depend upon God who I am in relationship with and who speaks to me frequently and naturally about my behaviour and words. I am his sheep and know His voice and follow Him. If I wondered about my salvation, which I just about never think about, I would just ask Him. He would tell me. And I have cultivated that sensitivity until I know His voice.

Jonaitis · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I very much appreciate the gentleness in your tone and thank you. I will only address the middle paragraph as you do not understand how it is for those of us who take the warnings to endure seriously. Please maintain that response even if the below challenges you. I am only telling the truth as the Holy Spirit bears witness.

I have walked with the Lord since childhood and never experience a moment of uncertainity as to my eternal destiny, when I thought about it at all, which is frankly speaking, rare. I know I am his because I follow his leading, mostly, during my days, or at least some of my days. I know His voice and I follow HIm for the most part. (Sometimes I am unsure it is him and sometimes I do not follow at that moment.) My relationship with Him is deep and vital and guides me. If I were to wonder about my eternal destiny, I could just ask Him. He would tell me. After some 40 years of doing this, I know HIm as Jesus describes in John 17:3

So my "eternal security" is because I know God. I understand Him as well. I know why He does what He does. This was the promise given to the prophets in these days. Everyone can know the Lord, not just the prophets. I am one of those. (But the price is high. It only comes with obedience, but that is another subject.)

Is it possible that our obedience is the consequence of salvation, while the call for endurance separates the saved from the unsaved?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
No, you really don't understand the signature and you don't understand salvation, as is clear from your posts. OSAS is predicated on a person who is genuinely saved and living for Jesus. Those who are saved will demonstrate it by their works.

Ah, so works MUST be there in order to know you are saved? Is that right? Do you see the problem with this?

My signature is about living for Jesus even at personal cost and only those who have full assurance of faith can do that.

There are those OSAS believers who think they are 100% saved no matter how they behave as evidenced in their lives and they think they have full assurance of faith. What do you say to them?

And those who love God are the ones who can live for Jesus even at personal cost. Jesus said those who love Him keep his teaching, not those who have full assurance of faith.

Those who think their salvation depends upon their own efforts continually fail because they are trusting in self and not trusting Jesus. Jesus will not share glory with anyone and either you trusting in Him 100% or you are trusting in your works for salvation.

Frankly speaking, this is a common OSAS straw argument. I have walked with the Lord and been in many Christian fellowships and have never met anyone like this. I doubt many if any think their salvation depends upon their own efforts outside of the JWs and the Catholics.

No, I didn't. Those who are saved won't harbor unforgiveness.

So no one in your church ever complains about anyone else? No one is ever bitter? You never complain about others or are angry at how others treat or speak of you? Ever?

What I destroyed is the ability of people like you to put others under condemnation and tell them that their salvation depends on themselves and not on Jesus.

Sounds like you are harboring unforgiveness towards those who do not believe OSAS. You seem to have kept score of those non-OSASers and resent their words. Hmmmm

I have not destroyed that warning at all because it is not about losing salvation. It is about losing the blessings of forgiveness and the experience of God's forgiveness and falling rather, under the judgement of God. God judges us as Christians, in this life, if we are disobedient. He doesn't revoke our salvation.

That is what OSASers believe, for sure.

If God revokes our salvation, He is not faithful to His Word.

Actually, he would need to do so to be faithful to his word as JEsus said if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven, not we will miss the reward of peace. God will use HIs word, but other parts of it, to those who trusted in a theology men invented to ease their consciences and assure them of Heaven no matter how they behave.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Is it possible that our obedience is the consequence of salvation, while the call for endurance separates the saved from the unsaved?

This is a very good question and I need to think about it some. I need to get off for now, but I will consider this. Excellent point I must say!!

HTacianas · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
Paul was talking about being disqualified for service, not salvation. None of us are qualified to be saved.

Paul wasn't talking about losing salvation. That's because being "grafted" into tree isn't a metaphor for salvation, so being cut off isn't about losing salvation. It is about participation in the blessings relative to the commonwealth of Israel.

Those believers who are not faithful in this life, who liver for their own agenda and not for the kingdom will not go to Hell, but they will forfeit all rewards in the kingdom, and they will experience judgement in that regard. Paul refers to those who are saved as by fire when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ. It is important to remember that the parable of the talents is not about salvation, but about service and "outer darkness" in this particular context isn't Hell.

Evil servants, in that parable, represent unbelievers, not believers.

That's a wonderful bit of wordsmithing, but you're not convincing me. I prefer to go with the plain language of what the writer is communicating.

Justified112 · Apr 7, 2019

HTacianas said:
That's a wonderful bit of wordsmithing, but you're not convincing me. I prefer to go with the plain language of what the writer is communicating.

I am not wordsmithing. You ripped several verses out of their immediate context and applied them to an issue they were not meant to address. So you were not going by the plain meaning. You were assigning a meaning to them that they do not have.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

SeventhFisherofMen said:
To answer your question yes you need to forgive in order to be forgiven, that is a condition clearly stated to be followed by Jesus. And to not be forgiven by Jesus and to not be given mercy means to not make it to Heaven, not a simple loss of rewords but rather a loss of salvation.

P.S. once saved always saved doctrine does not apply to Christianity and is not a thing anywhere mentioned in the Bible.

I agree! Nicely put. Thank you!

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
I am not wordsmithing. You ripped several verses out of their immediate context and applied them to an issue they were not meant to address. So you were not going by the plain meaning. You were assigning a meaning to them that they do not have.

No he/she did not. You were wordsmithing as well as editing out the scriptures you don’t like.

Paul was concerned about the salvation of men primarily, not the being fit for service. That is changing his words.

HTacianas · Apr 7, 2019

Justified112 said:
I am not wordsmithing. You ripped several verses out of their immediate context and applied them to an issue they were not meant to address. So you were not going by the plain meaning. You were assigning a meaning to them that they do not have.

I assigned the meaning that the writers intended at the time they were written. You then bent the meaning to suit your own tradition.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Calvin_1985 said:
I say to look at your own life. When you have had bitterness towards another or have been wronged by somebody, when you did not immediately forgave them, does Father speak to you and guide you to forgiving that person?

Yes He does. But it’s always my choice as to whether I want to release my complaint about them or fuel it.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Is it possible that our obedience is the consequence of salvation, while the call for endurance separates the saved from the unsaved?

Thought about it. Obedience is both a consequence and a choice. We cannot simply choose to obey without the HS, but neither does the HS override the will or desire.

Of course only the saved even want to endure or “endure” means anything. The point is the “saved” who fail to endure are no longer saved, according to Jesus.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 7, 2019

Romans 8 said:
I think this is a great question. Personally, I think forgiveness goes with repentance. And we grow into this, as we grow into our salvation. I don't think we say a prayer and we're instantly saved. I think it's a process as we incorporate things like forgiveness and get rid of idols on our walk with God. Some people can do this quicker than others. But I think forgiveness is part of repentance and is required (with His help of course).

How do you know when you are "fully" saved rather than 1/2 or even 1/3?

Natsumi Lam · Apr 7, 2019

Have we considered that salvation is the covenant with God; whereas, forgiving others is about the relationship with God?

Romans 8 · Apr 7, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
How do you know when you are "fully" saved rather than 1/2 or even 1/3?

Natsumi Lam said:
Have we considered that salvation is the covenant with God; whereas, forgiving others is about the relationship with God?

We don't know until judgement day. That's why we must "believe to the end".

The covenant os about obeying. Salvation is about our relationship with Him.

Mathew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This is about our relationship with Him. I think though, also, and possibly more so, that this verse is directed towards false prophets that use Jesus's name for their own selfish reasons. But it shows us that we must know Him to enter the kingdom of heaven and be saved.

fhansen · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

It means that the gospel /New Covenant is about change, not merely forgiveness of sin but change-in us-towards righteousness, defined primarily as love (the very image of God), wrought by Him as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, who places His law in our minds and writes them on our hearts as we abide in Him and He in us. If we're not involved in and oriented towards and overall growing in this righteousness, this justice, then were not His. This is what faith is meant to lead to, this is how faith justifies, faith itself being the first step in or act of justice for man. Faith is the establishment of or entering into communion with God.

Jesus Christ reconciles man with God. Then we're expected to respond, to follow, to act, with His help.

bling · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Easier said than done. If you listen to one Christian complain about how they were treated by Christians, you will see that forgiving those who offend you is difficult and goes against our desire. We actually do not forgive because we were forgiven unless we work at it, unless we choose to do so. Nursing our complaints is much easier and more common.

Lots of the time we do not fully realize what all we have been forgiven of so: "...he that is forgiven little loves little..." The difficulty is in humbly accepting God's love in the form of forgiveness as pure sacrificial charity.
I am personally responsible for Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered.

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