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Featured CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Choir Loft, Jul 20, 2018.

Conditional Immortality

Poll closed Aug 19, 2018.
  1. Agree

    20.0%
  2. Disagree

    40.0%
  3. Plausible

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Need more information

    40.0%
  5. Never heard of Annihilationism

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <CL>The Bible does not support the pagan concept of hell, which originated with the Egyptians, was philosophically adopted by the Greeks and finally by the Roman Catholic church and its offspring - the Protestants. . . .
    As an example for the reader to ponder, I submit a quote from a Greek Orthodox prelate. (hh) This quotation is submitted to establish the aberration of hell that was passed from the Greeks to the Roman church - and thus to us. The reader can clearly see how twisted the myth of hell becomes when examined via dogmatic statement alone.
    - Father George Metallinos [OrthodoxyToday.org]
    (italics are mine)<end>
    Do you think that if you repeat "pagan concept of hell" over and over that somehow makes it true? I do not consider "Father George" to be the be all, end all authority on hell or anything else.
    …..Here I have presented real evidence, it will require real evidence to rebut. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    .....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.


     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)



    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/


    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-35#post-72162632

    Addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141042


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.


    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you now a Calvinist & you believe Jesus being the Savior of the world means only the lucky ones God determined to be the elect? Does Jn.1:29 mean by "world" only some? Do you believe in the limited atonement theory?

    God or Jesus? God is Jesus. And His inspired Scriptures have made it clear all will be saved (Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).

    Compare:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

    Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/



    Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156


    In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna

    "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

    Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

    It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.


    None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

    Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.


    All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  5. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    GEHENNA versus HELL

    Jesus did not teach hell. He spoke of gehenna, which is a totally different thing.

    Not all translations use the word hell. Many now employ the word gehenna, which is entirely different. Check it out.

    Hell and/or hades is a reference to Greek philosophy and the earlier Egyptian Book of the Dead that inspired the myth.

    Gehenna is, or was, an actual waste dump outside Jerusalem where all sorts of garbage was consumed by fire and worm. Gehenna is a more explicit reference by Christ.

    Jesus wasn't attempting to debunk Greek myth because it had not yet been adopted by the church.

    There was nothing to debunk because the church did not yet exist upon the stage of history. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews who knew Jewish tradition and understood Jewish references. His words to fellow Jews have been corrupted by the church and its dogmatically inspired translations. This is not a mystery and is not an unknown matter. It's been going on for millennia. Church corruption of Biblical context was one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation.

    Christians deny Jewish tradition. Christians rejected Jews early in the history of the church. Not wanting to adopt Jewish tradition they chose to absorb heathen myth instead. The false dogma of hell is but one example. Christendom is littered with all sorts of pagan myth; sun worship, Christmas & Easter commercialism, justified religious lawlessness leading to sex crimes against Christian young - the list goes on and on. There is not space here to debate or even mention each one, but the trend is consistent with the church. The reader ought to be fully cognizant of these matters.

    Pagan myths have been absorbed in such great number that the basic message of the gospel has been diluted almost to the point of being unrecognizable. Most churches today teach buzz words, religious slogans and dogma rather than the principles of exegetical interpretation and verified historic background.

    Revelation 20:10

    The textual image here is built upon Ezekiel 38 & 39 right down to code names for the opposition (Gog & Magog). Elijah describes them as being consumed or devoured by fire. Satan's torment is symbolic because a literal interpretation of Rev 20:10 is impossible.

    Political power and apostate religious beguilement are not persons or organizations who can be tortured in fire or imprisonment. The vision itself would be impossible if it hadn't been presented or personified as creatures. On the other hand, if the passage of Rev 20:10 means the same thing as Revelation 19:20, then its a simple statement of annihilation.

    Either way, no human beings are involved in the conflagration. The passage does not imply nor state that any of Adam's race are tormented day and night.

    Interpretation

    Once again we must appeal to the general rules of Biblical interpretation/exegesis.

    - The Bible interprets itself.

    - External sources are not valid for Biblical interpretation.
    (i.e: hell/hades from the Egyptian Book of the Dead & Platonic Greek philosophy)

    - Verses should be taken literally unless indicated otherwise.
    (ie: Contra indicating clues are hypothetical examples, parables and the Biblical poetry of psalms, proverbs, Jeremiah, etc. )

    - Single verses should never be used to establish or justify interpretation and/or doctrine.

    - Context, or the general theme of the Bible on a particular subject, should always be used as a benchmark for interpretation.

    Annihilation

    Appeals to the veracity of the dogma of hell deny the character of God, such as His love, revealed throughout the entire length of the Bible (context). God does not torture. God kills. Additionally, God takes no pleasure in meting out death. If God takes no pleasure in killing why then would He establish a divine torture chamber for the wicked?

    The logical conclusion, based upon the context of scripture, is that God has not created a scenario wherein the wicked are tortured forever. Instead even the wrath of God against sin is attenuated. The wicked are consumed and destroyed with a terrible finality. They do not writhe forever in pain. They are simply utterly and totally removed from existence.

    Considering these qualities of God and that He is STILL WILLING to forgive us our sins, it behoves us all to humbly appeal to Him for forgiveness and salvation in the name of Jesus Christ - the ONLY name that can save eternally.

    The time to repent is now - today.

    Judgment is coming much sooner than any of us realize - or plan on.

    REPENT. More important now than ever.....

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just for the record, I'm not locked into the idea of hell. I don't need the concept to somehow make me feel good. I also agree that the more correct terms would be gehenna and sheol. Jesus used both. There is also Tartarus, which was used once in the New Testament. I don't like that KJV labeled all the terms hell, because it certainly confuses and misleads people.

    But the concept of gehenna is something serious when Jesus says it would be better to pluck out eyes or cut off body parts to avoid it. And, when there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    As for the rest of your ignorance, I will let God deal with you on that. Glad you are only hollering from the choir loft and not the pulpit for the sake of the many who you would mislead. You clearly aren't talking from a position of relationship with God if you are yelling for me to repent before the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the God and Father of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ whom I have been brought to know.
     
  7. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    At the end of my post I wrote, "it behooves us all to humbly appeal to Him for forgiveness....."
    How do you get a personal message out of that?

    It's the basic message of the Bible, to humbly approach Our Lord for forgiveness and peace.

    I holler from the choir loft because I've been relegated to that position by churches that would rather preach happy talk to fill seats and not repentance, by churches that would rather preach gay life style than right living before God, by church leadership that demanded I recant my faith in Jesus Christ in order to be allowed to preach from a pulpit, by churches that taught Christians should, "go out and sin that grace may abound." I holler because of so many buzz words and religious slogans that are being passed off as Biblical truth. Christendom has become secularized. The gospel diluted to being unrecognizable.

    We ALL need to repent of our sins and wickedness, including but not limited to you and me.

    and YES, the time is short. The time or repent and get right with God is now. Complacency is not justification. Apathy is a sin. Ezekiel 33 needs to be read again for the first time.

    God is not willing that any should die, but die they will if they do not repent of their sins and wickedness.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <CL>GEHENNA versus HELL
    Jesus did not teach hell. He spoke of gehenna, which is a totally different thing.
    Not all translations use the word hell. Many now employ the word gehenna, which is entirely different. Check it out.
    Hell and/or hades is a reference to Greek philosophy and the earlier Egyptian Book of the Dead that inspired the myth.
    Gehenna is, or was, an actual waste dump outside Jerusalem where all sorts of garbage was consumed by fire and worm.
    [There is no Biblical or historical evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a burning trash dump. DA] Gehenna is a more explicit reference by Christ.
    Jesus wasn't attempting to debunk Greek myth because it had not yet been adopted by the church.
    There was nothing to debunk because the church did not yet exist upon the stage of history. Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews who knew Jewish tradition and understood Jewish references.
    His words to fellow Jews have been corrupted by the church and its dogmatically inspired translations. This is not a mystery and is not an unknown matter. It's been going on for millennia. Church corruption of Biblical context was one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation.[Biased nonsense with no evidence. DA]
    Christians deny Jewish tradition. Christians rejected Jews early in the history of the church. Not wanting to adopt Jewish tradition they chose to absorb heathen myth instead. The false dogma of hell is but one example. Christendom is littered with all sorts of pagan myth; sun worship, Christmas & Easter commercialism, justified religious lawlessness leading to sex crimes against Christian young - the list goes on and on. [Biased nonsense with no evidence. DA]
    There is not space here to debate or even mention each one, but the trend is consistent with the church. The reader ought to be fully cognizant of these matters.
    Pagan myths have been absorbed in such great number that the basic message of the gospel has been diluted almost to the point of being unrecognizable. Most churches today teach buzz words, religious slogans and dogma rather than the principles of exegetical interpretation and verified historic background. [Biased nonsense with no evidence. DA]

    Revelation 20:10
    The textual image here is built upon Ezekiel 38 & 39 right down to code names for the opposition (Gog & Magog). Elijah describes them as being consumed or devoured by fire. Satan's torment is symbolic because a literal interpretation of Rev 20:10 is impossible.[Typical heterodox argument. When scripture as written contradicts someone's pet doctrine blow it off as symbolic, etc. DA]
    Political power and apostate religious beguilement are not persons or organizations who can be tortured in fire or imprisonment. The vision itself would be impossible if it hadn't been presented or personified as creatures. On the other hand, if the passage of Rev 20:10 means the same thing as Revelation 19:20, then its a simple statement of annihilation.
    Either way, no human beings are involved in the conflagration. The passage does not imply nor state that any of Adam's race are tormented day and night.

    Interpretation
    Once again we must appeal to the general rules of Biblical interpretation/exegesis.
    - The Bible interprets itself.
    - External sources are not valid for Biblical interpretation.
    (i.e: hell/hades from the Egyptian Book of the Dead & Platonic Greek philosophy)
    [If external sources are invalid for Bible interpretation why do you rely on Egyptian and Greek writings? DA]
    - Verses should be taken literally unless indicated otherwise.[Except when they contradict one's biases/presuppositions. DA]
    (ie: Contra indicating clues are hypothetical examples, parables and the Biblical poetry of psalms, proverbs, Jeremiah, etc. )
    - Single verses should never be used to establish or justify interpretation and/or doctrine.
    - Context, or the general theme of the Bible on a particular subject, should always be used as a benchmark for interpretation.

    Annihilation
    Appeals to the veracity of the dogma of hell deny the character of God, such as His love, revealed throughout the entire length of the Bible (context). God does not torture. God kills. Additionally, God takes no pleasure in meting out death. If God takes no pleasure in killing why then would He establish a divine torture chamber for the wicked?[Unsupported personal opinion. DA]
    The logical conclusion, based upon the context of scripture, is that God has not created a scenario wherein the wicked are tortured forever. Instead even the wrath of God against sin is attenuated. The wicked are consumed and destroyed with a terrible finality. They do not writhe forever in pain. They are simply utterly and totally removed from existence.
    Considering these qualities of God and that He is STILL WILLING to forgive us our sins, it behoves us all to humbly appeal to Him for forgiveness and salvation in the name of Jesus Christ - the ONLY name that can save eternally.
    The time to repent is now - today.
    Judgment is coming much sooner than any of us realize - or plan on.
    REPENT. More important now than ever.....
    that's me, hollering from the choir loft
    .....<end>
    Do you think that if you repeat "pagan concept of hell" over and over that somehow makes it true?
    …..Here I present real evidence, it will require real evidence to rebut. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
    .....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

    http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
     
  10. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    In the interest of sparing the reader a host of religious hokum posted by some folks here I submit the following:

    There is no Biblical or historical evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a burning trash dump. -DA

    References to Gehenna as a waste dump are indeed chronicled in the Bible. A few verses for review are from Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:2-6. Gehenna was also the place where heathen leaders threw their children into the edifice of the god Molech. Jesus' references to gehenna were explicit and well understood by his Jewish audience. Christians who prefer pagan dogma generally refute it. They have a fascination with Middle Ages dungeon lore and mistakenly attribute it to God's Word and thus accuse the Almighty of sadistic tendencies.

    Assertions of a lack of physical evidence of the use of the area are in dispute. The entire area in and around Jerusalem has been covered by the compost of ages. Many passages in the Bible have been discovered to be true by recent archaeological discoveries. I would not be comfortable with someone quoting a 'scientific assumption' that the Bible is lying about such things. Then again, other people are comfortable with accusations of God's Word as a lie so as to protect their beliefs in pagan myth.

    At the end of the day and after all the fussing is made there remains two solid arguments that are not refutable.

    Man is mortal.
    Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;"
    - Genesis 6:3a

    Only God is immortal.
    who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light
    - 1 Tim 6:16

    No one has yet successfully disputed these two basic Biblical assertions. The natural condition of man is mortality - body, mind and spirit. There is NO indication whatsoever in the Bible that man has a component of consciousness that survives physical death. There is NO indication whatsoever that left untouched by the will of God - a human spirit will survive very long at all. The ultimate destiny of the unregenerate human is the Second Death.

    Those who are subject to the Second Death are cast into the lake of fire, which burns continually. Fuel for a fire is consumed rapidly and completely. The fires burn always because their is always a supply of consumable fuel - wicked humanity.

    The lake of fire burns constantly because there is always a fresh supply of fuel (Mark 9:48). There is no suggestion at all that the fuel lasts forever. The purpose of fuel is to be consumed to sustain fire. The purpose of vegetable and animal matter is to provide sustenance for the worm. The fire isn't extinguished because it's fuel is consumed. The worm doesn't die because it feasts continually.

    Why is this difficult to understand? Because Christians like to believe their buzz words and religious slogans rather than Biblical truth and clear concise examples of meaning. The same was true for the religious leaders of Jesus' day. They killed Him for speaking truth as they continue to suppress the truth today.

    The Bible DOES SAY that God is willing to give of His own eternal life to those men and women who surrender their lives and hearts to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. These alone will inherit eternal blessings with God. The time to repent of sin is now. A one time march down the sawdust trail isn't sufficient. One must carry one's cross of sin and crucify the sin within daily. (Matthew 16:24)

    In order to prove the dogma of hell (everlasting torment of the wicked) one MUST prove by means of Biblical context that mankind is anything other than mortal. To date, no one has attempted to do so.

    In order to prove the dogma of hell one MUST prove the Biblical assertion that ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL to be false. To date, no one has attempted to do so.

    The false dogma of hell rests on the error that both the above statements are false....that the Bible is lying when it states these two simple premises.

    The destiny of mortal man is the Second Death - the lake of fire that burns continually and which utterly destroys the spirits of those cast into it. Fire destroys that which is cast into it. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

    The false doctrine of hell is based upon the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which was adopted by Greek philosophers like Plato. It was later adopted into church doctrine by leaders such as St. Augustine. It is a total and complete fabrication. The church has a long history of adopting pagan myths into its ceremonies and doctrines. Some of these have been documented earlier by myself.

    The issue here isn't evidence, but the suppression of it.

    God's wrath is unfolding upon the world even as we argue over seemingly simple matters. The time to repent of sin is now. The time to abandon private flirtations with it is long past. It is time to humble ourselves before God and seek His mercy - and life. The alternative is almost too horrible to contemplate (thus some like to believe in a false dogma so as to delay an inevitable judgment).

    DEATH TO SIN.

    One way or the other God intends to destroy sin from heaven and earth. The wise man will seek an escape by means of repentance, to turn away from sin, and seek forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. The fool will continue to justify himself and his wickedness and be destroyed - deleted without possibility of unDelete.

    It is time to choose.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    There is no Biblical or historical evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a burning trash dump. -DA
    References to Gehenna as a waste dump are indeed chronicled in the Bible. A few verses for review are from Jeremiah 7:31 and 19:2-6. Gehenna was also the place where heathen leaders threw their children into the edifice of the god Molech. Jesus' references to gehenna were explicit and well understood by his Jewish audience.

    Nonsense with no, none, zero evidence of any kind. I on the other hand have quoted from three Jewish sources which have been totally ignored while you continue to propagate internet gossip.

    <Hollering>Man is mortal.
    Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal [בָּשָׂר] ;"

    - Genesis 6:3a
    Only God is immortal.
    “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”- 1 Tim 6:16<end>
    The problem with your misrepresented proof texts is the word erroneously translated "mortal" in Gen 6:3 does not mean "mortal" at all.
    H1320 בָּשָׂר bâśâr
    From H1319; flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.
    Total KJV occurrences: 270
    Wrong as usual! Hollering this same nonsense over and over and over does not make it true. Can you provide anything like credible, verifiable, historical evidence to back up any of this? While you are trying to find some evidence, here once again is my evidence that according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,
    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no mention of "repent before death" there. What happens to babies, children & teens who die in unrepentance?

    Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."
    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    "Philo...uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful."
    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

    In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  13. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    I have not heard that Catholics deny Hell. Isn't this possibly a misunderstanding?

    I don't think Hell involves people actively being tortured by God for sadistic pleasure or satisfaction.

    But imagine a God who snuffs people out, that's pretty extreme too, and does not get God off the hook. It reminds me of what Clint Eastwood's character said in Unforegiven, about "killing a man". "It's a hell of a thing killing a man... you take everything he's got, or all he will ever be..". To literally erase somebody, wouldn't be respecting of their human dignity, and that's the traditional objection to annihilationism by Christians.
     
  14. Choir Loft

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    The Calvinist position is that the afterlife destiny of people is chosen before birth. As such they cannot give comfort to grieving parents who've lost an infant. They can try but they cannot be sincere about it and maintain the integrity of their ideology at the same time.

    The Universalist position is totally devoid of divine justice at all. Everybody gets a kiss on the forehead and a lollypop before being admitted into heaven - or a remedial course in anger management first.....

    The pagan myth is that everybody who hasn't written a big check to their favorite charity and pledged allegiance to their nations' government, however evil it may be, and who hasn't bowed the knee to political correctness will be ushered into a place without air conditioning where they will be tortured without hope of release. The Bible never admits to this. The Biblical LAW says something completely different.

    THE LAW as stated in the Bible, specifically states that sin is a willful disobedience of God's will. What infant makes choices? They eat. They sleep. They fill their diapers. That's it and that's all for them.

    THE LAW states that a sacrifice for sin must be made, but it never says that a sin sacrifice should be made for a child. God forbid an infant should die, but if he or she does please tell me (or accuse them before God) of what sin they are guilty? No sin = no penalty. That's the Law.

    Children old enough to get into trouble are also at risk of judgment before the Law as well as a choice to make peace with God. I've known children who accepted Christ at a very early age (single digit number of age). If a child knows enough to lie cheat and steal then they know enough to repent and be saved.

    Teenagers are notoriously rebellious against authority parents and tradition. In those years a person's character is formed for the rest of their life. Unchecked by penitent attitude their destiny can only be destruction. This is why we send our young into war - to thin the herd of murderous individuals. This statement may be viewed by some as a bit harsh, but those same objectors will be unable to explain why we love war so much. If we don't, why do we support it so vehemently? It isn't for freedom we bomb and kill and destroy - its to remove the wicked from the earth. Have you noticed that 'the wicked' always assumes the other guy is the wicked? It's never us.

    "The object of war isn't to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his country."
    - General George Patton [European theater WWII]

    "It isn't my responsibility to forgive the enemy. That's God's job. My job is to arrange the meeting."
    - General H.M. Schwarzkopf [Commander Desert Storm]

    "If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue? "
    - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Hypocrisy may abound, but can never subvert divine justice.

    For those who believe God is being too harsh with regard to the Second Death - the total and complete eradication of the wicked in the lake of fire (permanent deletion) it ought to be remembered that man is far more cruel and far less just. Shall man judge God for the ways of heaven? By no means.

    It is the responsibility of man to humbly ask God for mercy rather than to exhaust time in argument. God isn't interested in the opinions of man (James 2:1-3).

    It is time to repent of sin and to rid ourselves of our excuses and pet fantasies. Only then can we hope for peace with God. Heaven and the Second Death await. Choose wisely.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  15. Choir Loft

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    False quotations assuming to be that of Christ or an apostle do not suffice to justify some sort of fetish with torture.

    That sort of thing is considered disgusting among decent people. Some people like to imagine God has a fascination, similar to their own, with whips and chains and pain in a dark dungeon hidden from the eyes of decent people. Why is God being accused of that which even humanity finds foul and obscene? Perhaps some misguided person may wish to justify their own fantasies about hurting other people. God certainly does not.

    Misleading and over lengthy argument in favor of God as being a vindictive sadistic unjust brute do not suffice to establish Biblical truth.

    Logical exegetical examination of Biblical context does.

    I note that despite all the intense vomitus exhibited by Mr. DA there is a purposeful effort expended to avoid and obfuscate the real issue at hand. The issue is the mortality of man. The issue has not been addressed at all. Instead Mr. DA goes to extreme lengths to confuse the standard by which all are judged and rewarded. If Mr. DA is sincere he's ranting in the wrong direction.

    I repeat my challenge because it has been deliberately ignored.

    Man is mortal. Only God is immortal.

    This is the Biblical foundation upon which Final judgment and eternal reward is based. None other.

    Until and unless these twin assertions are adequately refuted the truthful interpretation of the Bible as a whole still stands.

    Hell is a pagan myth.

    God does not engage in eternal torture of the wicked. In fact, HE gives nothing at all to sinners. (Matthew 7:23) The pagan myth is that God gives sinners a going-away present of eternal suffering. In fact, God takes everything away. For those who don't yet know it, this condition is called death.

    There is no knowing in death. There is no experience of anything in death. There is only oblivion.

    Why is this so difficult to grasp? It's difficult because we are all sinners in our hearts. Only God is able to judge sin. Judge it HE does!

    DEATH TO SIN.

    One way or the other sin will end in heaven and on earth. It will end for the wicked in the Second Death because God will not maintain sin even in eternity. It will end on earth in the hearts of those who turn away from it (repent) and seek peace with God.

    Sin will NOT continue eternally in a place hidden from the eyes of God and angels and man. It is utterly eradicated and removed from the universe. God does not have a fetish for torture - despite the human perverse love of it by those who refuse to let it go.

    The really really funny thing is that God isn't interested in Mr. DA's opinion.
    ("God is no respecter of persons." Acts 10:34)

    It is time to repent of our sins and make peace with God.

    If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32), then why would He enjoy eternal torture? He would not. God makes a total complete end of it - He annihilates the wicked in the Second Death. On the other hand, He welcomes with open arms those who abandon sin and seek peace with Him.

    Come unto God all you who labor under sin. He will refresh and admit you into His peace.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not really. Have you never read Mt.18:34-35; Rev.14:9-11; 20:10; Lk.16:19-31?

    7 myths re universalism:

    https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/

    http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

    OTOH where is the justice in eternal annihilation for the sins of a few years or decades? Especially when Christ has died for such & His blood shed for those sins. Does the compassion of Love Omnipotent have an expiry date like a carton of milk? Is His hand shortened that it is powerless to save?

    It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    "It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    As someone said:

    "annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think it was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

    1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

    2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

    3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

    "Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    "Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

    5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

    6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

    7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    More empty hollering! Back this up or apologize. Show me where I posted any "false quotation" from Christ or an apostle?
    Part of your pet argument here is false. The word falsely interpreted as "mortal" does not mean mortal. So you argument is dead in the water.
     
  19. Choir Loft

    Choir Loft Member

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    Here is a mystery.....that the Bible doesn't mean mortal when it says mortal or death when it says death.

    Is this not deliberate confusion of the Word of God so as to justify pagan myth (of hell)? When common understanding of simple words is twisted, then truth is masked by lies.

    The concept of hell is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible. Man is mortal and dies physically and spiritually. Only God is immortal and grants eternal life to those He wishes. The wicked do NOT inherit eternal life in any way shape or form.

    "God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

    This most well known verse says it all simply and truthfully. It says those who believe in Christ will have eternal life, but those that do not will perish. PERISH. That means to die. How simple and straightforward does it have to be? To perish means to die.

    Since the verse juxtaposes eternal life and perishing, the reader is inevitably led to the conclusion that those who do NOT believe will NOT be given eternal life. They therefore die spiritually. This is the Second Death.

    The verse says nothing about eternal suffering of the wicked. It says they perish - they are obliterated from all knowing - physically and spiritually.

    Sons of satan who prefer to continue to mislead the elect into error will confuse the meaning of this most well known verse and twist it to their own interpretations. The words will nevertheless stand.

    God does not torture and God doesn't have any joy in death. But those who hate the gospel do. They rejoice in the idea of eternal flames of torment and they hate those who seek truth.

    that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <CL>Here is a mystery.....that the Bible doesn't mean mortal when it says mortal or death when it says death.
    Is this not deliberate confusion of the Word of God so as to justify pagan myth (of hell)? When common understanding of simple words is twisted, then truth is masked by lies.

    More empty meaningless hollering about "pagan myths" with no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical, biblical or any other kind of evidence. Here is a flash for you Moses did not carry the KJV down from Mount Sinai. The Bible was not written in 1611 Elizabethan English. There are 100s of words in the KJV which have either changed in meaning or dropped out of use altogether. When I need to know the correct meaning of a word in the Bible I consult the original language Hebrew or Greek. I have studied both languages at the graduate level
    The concept of hell is NOT taught anywhere in the Bible. Man is mortal and dies physically and spiritually. Only God is immortal and grants eternal life to those He wishes. The wicked do NOT inherit eternal life in any way shape or form.
    "God so loved the world that He gave His only son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

    This most well known verse says it all simply and truthfully. It says those who believe in Christ will have eternal life, but those that do not will perish. PERISH. That means to die. How simple and straightforward does it have to be? To perish means to die.
    Since the verse juxtaposes eternal life and perishing, the reader is inevitably led to the conclusion that those who do NOT believe will NOT be given eternal life. They therefore die spiritually. This is the Second Death.
    The verse says nothing about eternal suffering of the wicked. It says they perish - they are obliterated from all knowing - physically and spiritually.
    Sons of satan who prefer to continue to mislead the elect into error will confuse the meaning of this most well known verse and twist it to their own interpretations. The words will nevertheless stand.
    God does not torture and God doesn't have any joy in death. But those who hate the gospel do. They rejoice in the idea of eternal flames of torment and they hate those who seek truth.
    that's me, hollering from the choir loft.
    ..<end>
    Ignoring everything that is posted and endlessly repeating the same thing over and over and over does not make it true. For example the word translated "destruction" in the NT.
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

    (1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
    ἀπόλλυμι​
    for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).​

    ① to cause or experience destruction
    ⓐ act.ruin, destroy
    α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
    β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
    γ. without obj. J 10:10.
    ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
    α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
    β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
    to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
    to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
    ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1.
    Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

     
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