CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

[Choir Loft]

All Christians agree that God is love, but how can a loving God condone eternal torture even for people who deserve it?

The Holy See recently published a statement denying the existence of hell. This statement became immediately controversial because it seemed to deny divine justice. Unfortunately, most of the arguments opposing the new Catholic definition of Final Judgment are due to lack of documentation for the assertion.

Here follows documentation I've gleaned from various sources concerning the Biblical point of view on the subject. It's called the Doctrine of Annihilation or Conditional Immortality and seems to provide a logical Biblical context for resolving the logical dilemma of how a loving God can dispense justice without eternal torture.

I am not a Catholic, but have discovered within the context of the Bible that there does seem to be a finality of spiritual death, but without eternal torture that the church adopted during the middle ages. (see: THE DIVINE COMEDY by Dante Alighieri) Is the Vatican now attempting to reverse this position? It would seem so.

For my part, I wish to share basic references concerning CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY. It is hoped the reader will peruse the following carefully and not dismiss it out of hand.

Thank you ahead of time for reading....................

Annihilationism - conditionalism or conditional immortality

The basic premise of this ideology is in two parts;
1. that the human spirit is naturally mortal,
2. that immortality may be granted by God as a gift.

Souls of the wicked will be destroyed by fire (consumed over a span of finite time) rather than suffering eternal torment.

Proponents of conditional immortality or conditionalists point to Genesis 2 and Revelation 22, where the Tree of Life is mentioned.
It is argued that these passages, along with Genesis 3:22-24 teach that human beings will naturally die, body and spirit, without continued access to God's life-giving power.

Primary Scripture references;

God alone is immortal.
“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light”
1 Tim 6:16a

Immortality only comes to humans as a gift through the gospel.
“it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”
2 Tim 1:10

Immortality is something to be sought after.
“He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever.”
Romans 2:7

==============================================

Old Covenant references and theme
Finality of judgment is implied not its duration.

2The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid.
3The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damascus; the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites,” declares the Lord Almighty.
4“In that day the glory of Jacob will fade; the fat of his body will waste away.
5It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain, gathering the grain in their arms—as when someone gleans heads of grain in the Valley of Rephaim.
6Yet some gleanings will remain, as when an olive tree is beaten, leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,” declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
7In that day people will look to their Makerand turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
- Isaiah 17:2–7

For the moth will eat them up like a garment;
the worm will devour them like wool.
But my righteousness will last forever,
my salvation through all generations.”
- Isaiah 51:8

And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
- Isaiah 66:24

Then Micaiah answered, “I saw all Israel scattered on the hills like sheep without a shepherd,
and the Lord said, ‘These people have no master. Let each one go home in peace.’ ”
- 1 Kings 22:17

Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done—burn with no one to quench it.
- Jeremiah 4:4

“ ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place—on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the crops of your land—and it will burn and not be quenched.
- Jeremiah 7:20

This is what the Lord says to you, house of David: ‘Administer justice every morning;
rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed,
or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done—
burn with no one to quench it.
- Jeremiah 21:12

Say to the southern forest: ‘Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry.
The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it.
Everyone will see that I the Lord have kindled it; it will not be quenched.’ 
- Ezekiel 20:47–48

==============================================
New Covenant references and theme
Wicked will justly suffer for their sins, but the end result will be their destruction.

Jesus speaks of body and soul destruction
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
- Matthew 10:28

Following is a description of the experience of a deceased/disembodied human spirit experiencing the Second Death - destruction in the Lake of Fire. Reference to sheol or hades or gehenna are references to; sleep of death, destruction as in a garbage dump, lack of sustenance/water/dryness/grace, Abraham's bosom & hopelessness.
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried. In sheol, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
- Luke 16:19–31

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
- Romans 2:8

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
- 2 Thessalonians 1:6

References:
Genesis 2

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
- Genesis 3:22

Revelation 22

Scholars:
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr
Irenaeus
Arnobius
John Wesley

Recent Publications:
Philip Hughes published The True Image in 1989
Basil Atkinson Life and Immortality
The Fire that Consumes Edward Fudge

I hope this helps to illuminate the reader as to the basis of the assertion that Final Judgment results in a permanent destruction of the unregenerate human spirit after death rather than eternal torture. It also affirms and underlines the gospel message that God wishes to bestow upon mankind the gift of eternal life - by means of accepting His Son Jesus Christ via the Second Birth.

Hence the old expression is given new meaning;
Born once, die twice.
Born twice, die once.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

All Christians agree that God is love....

Not quite. Most seem to take that one passage (three words) that God is love, and make it into a universal truth. A significant minority of us don't think that God can be boiled down to love syrup, like some manner of maple sap, as though he were nothing more. The Calvinistic among us don't even think he loves everyone. Anyone who reads the Old Testament with the love-muffin mindset is going to be tempted to think that it describes an entirely different god.

It is argued that these passages, along with Genesis 3:22-24 teach that human beings will naturally die, body and spirit, without continued access to God's life-giving power.

Hell is death. Adam and Eve were told that they would die on the day that they ate that fruit, and they were cast from paradise to here. That was their death. The next death is Hell. You might think of it as eternal torture, but people in Heaven might think the same of where we are.

It follows that if there's a positive infinite Heaven, and there's this finite world we know, then there's probably a negatively infinite Hell. It's that place where their worm dies not, and the flames are never quenched. The worms are not being burned forever on the sinner's behalf, so let's not kid ourselves. Hell is not a place where the flames never die for no reason, with nothing in it.

Why would a loving God torture people forever? You might conclude that he won't really torture people forever, but I go the other way and doubt your characterization of God. It matters, because you're going to have to face him some day, and we need you not to reject him if we expect him not to reject you.

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


Closed for review. Annihilationism cannot be taught or promoted in General Theology.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been moved to Controversial Christian Theology.
Please note and abide by the Statement of Purpose of this forum.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[cwo]

Not quite. Most seem to take that one passage (three words) that God is love, and make it into a universal truth. A significant minority of us don't think that God can be boiled down to love syrup, like some manner of maple sap, as though he were nothing more. The Calvinistic among us don't even think he loves everyone. Anyone who reads the Old Testament with the love-muffin mindset is going to be tempted to think that it describes an entirely different god.




Hell is death. Adam and Eve were told that they would die on the day that they ate that fruit, and they were cast from paradise to here. That was their death. The next death is Hell. You might think of it as eternal torture, but people in Heaven might think the same of where we are.

It follows that if there's a positive infinite Heaven, and there's this finite world we know, then there's probably a negatively infinite Hell. It's that place where their worm dies not, and the flames are never quenched. The worms are not being burned forever on the sinner's behalf, so let's not kid ourselves. Hell is not a place where the flames never die for no reason, with nothing in it.

Why would a loving God torture people forever? You might conclude that he won't really torture people forever, but I go the other way and doubt your characterization of God. It matters, because you're going to have to face him some day, and we need you not to reject him if we expect him not to reject you.

There's alot of error in your post. I will start by saying no one goes to heaven. When Christ returns, he comes to live on the earth, to rule on it, which implies that the elect he gathered at his coming will also live on the earth, to rule over it with him.

Next, God has already predestined who he will deliver, and who he will punish in Hell, before anyone did any good or evil, so that through those he predestined to Hell, he may show his wrath, power, and judgment, but once these characteristics of God have been shown through them, they serve no other purpose, but to cease to exist, not endless torment. The punishment of sin is death, not endless torment. The lake of fire is just a means to bring death, a very painful death, that results not just in the destruction of body, but also soul - hence death, a permanent one without future resurrection. Destruction means exactly what it says, destruction.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<cwo>There's alot of error in your post. I will start by saying no one goes to heaven. When Christ returns, he comes to live on the earth, to rule on it, which implies that the elect he gathered at his coming will also live on the earth, to rule over it with him.
Next, God has already predestined who he will deliver, and who he will punish in Hell, before anyone did any good or evil, so that through those he predestined to Hell, he may show his wrath, power, and judgment, but once these characteristics of God have been shown through them, they serve no other purpose, but to cease to exist, not endless torment. The punishment of sin is death, not endless torment. The lake of fire is just a means to bring death, a very painful death, that results not just in the destruction of body, but also soul - hence death, a permanent one without future resurrection. Destruction means exactly what it says, destruction.<end>

end

There are a few incorrect assumptions in this post.
1. God has already predestined who he will deliver, and who he will punish in Hell.
2. The punishment of sin is death, not endless torment. The lake of fire is just a means to bring death, a very painful death,
3. Destruction means exactly what it says, destruction.
I will address number 3 first.

ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destruction
ⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[Choir Loft]

There's alot of error in your post. I will start by saying no one goes to heaven. When Christ returns, he comes to live on the earth, to rule on it, which implies that the elect he gathered at his coming will also live on the earth, to rule over it with him.

Next, God has already predestined who he will deliver, and who he will punish in Hell, before anyone did any good or evil, so that through those he predestined to Hell, he may show his wrath, power, and judgment, but once these characteristics of God have been shown through them, they serve no other purpose, but to cease to exist, not endless torment. The punishment of sin is death, not endless torment. The lake of fire is just a means to bring death, a very painful death, that results not just in the destruction of body, but also soul - hence death, a permanent one without future resurrection. Destruction means exactly what it says, destruction.

Calvinist doctrine is intrinsically anti-semitic. Consequently the aggressive conclusions of its adherents are somewhat vague if not altogether toxic.

Calvinists can provide a torrent of scripture verses to justify their position.
So can those who follow Jacob Arminius.

If anyone is interested I can provide parallel scripture quotations to document these assertions.

Calvinists are correct, but Arminius, who taught free will, was also correct.

So how can both be right when their scripture quotations seem to be logically opposed to their separate interpretations?

They can be correct only if the Jew is considered in their doctrinal interpretations. Unfortunately John Calvin was a known anti-semite whose attitude is reflected in his doctrines.(*) Arminius wasn't overtly anti-semitic, but like most Christians of his era as well as in the Post Modern age the Jew is never really considered to have an impact on doctrine (except as a sort of judas goat).

Calvin is correct when he asserts the chosen people of God have been picked before their birth for their destiny and their role in the redemption of man. But who are the chosen people? The Bible is quite clear on their identity.

Jews are the chosen people.

They are born Jews and have no choice in the matter. Even if they deny Judaism and God, they are still Jews. They're pretty much stuck with it. Their fate is sealed before during and after their lives.

Arminius is correct when he asserts free will. Those who are not Jews are those granted free will. Gentiles are invited to the marriage feast of the lamb. If they accept the invitation, they reap the benefits of God's gift of eternal life. They are grafted into the true vine, of which Jesus is described as the root, and join with the chosen (Jews).(Romans 2:29) Together they dress out the vine called Israel.

Let us reason together.

Disciples of John Calvin and Jacob Arminius cannot both endlessly quote scripture and be correct......

unless the Jew is considered as part of the equation.....

and then BOTH are correct.

Think about it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) I have known Calvinists who absolutely refuse to admit the modern State of Israel has anything to do with Jews or the Bible or Christian eschatology or even that it is a legitimate nation among the family of nations. If this isn't toxic anti-semitism I don't know what is. I have seen Calvinists sit in front of me and literally choke when I insist that Jews continue to play a major part in God's plan of redemption. Is the Jew a stumbling block to Christian understanding of God's plan of redemption? Unfortunately, yes.

 

[Tomb523]

All Christians agree that God is love, but how can a loving God condone eternal torture even for people who deserve it?.

I agree that the wicked will be killed. I differ slightly, if I understood you correctly, that the spirit or soul is mortal. I believe it is created immortal and returns to God in a sleeping condition until judgement day, then the righteous are raised and the soul re-united with the transfigured body. Later, the unrighteous will be raised and the final judgement will happen. The casting into the lake of fire to bring about the second death will ultimately result in annihilation; however, there may be some suffering in that process.

 

[ClementofA]

And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
- Isaiah 66:24

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=αἰσχύνη

http://biblehub.com/greek/152.htm

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

their worm -dieth not - seems to be the soul
spirit/soul/body - the body will die after being tormented, but it is not the worm
The scene is on the new earth. The righteous go forth and view and abhor the wicked men that died, but their worm lives.

Isa.66:23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;
and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

http://wasillabible.org/sermon-blog/isaiah-65-66-vision-part-3

(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.
26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.


(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.ca/2011/08/origen-on-salvation-of-devil.html

7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


Mark9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."

Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew5/D5-BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=6V-A1h0EoEAC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=josephus+unquenchable+fire+temple&source=bl&ots=CcRUZODIis&sig=W7xttrBMezXGJ0eB3k-VBR4R1WU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPwqfAuZLOAhVK6IMKHfGXC8UQ6AEIHzAB#v=onepage&q=josephus unquenchable fire temple&f=false

Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.

"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."

"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...eve-in-eternal-torture-in-fire.8041369/page-8

So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.




"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve.(http://www.monarchlabs.com/mdt) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "

"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."

http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7523

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life."(Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Der Alte]

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<T523>I agree that the wicked will be killed. I differ slightly, if I understood you correctly, that the spirit or soul is mortal. I believe it is created immortal and returns to God in a sleeping condition until judgement day, then the righteous are raised and the soul re-united with the transfigured body. Later, the unrighteous will be raised and the final judgement will happen. The casting into the lake of fire to bring about the second death will ultimately result in annihilation; however, there may be some suffering in that process.<end>

end

There is not one single verse in the Bible which says anyone or anything dies a second death.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[Tomb523]

<T523>

My chief reason for being an annalist is based on the character of God. I do not believe He is a God of eternal punishment. There may be some suffering in the final death, but I can't reconcile His character with eternal torment. There are many other passages which I could use to justify my position, but unfortunately I don't have time to dig it all out now. Perhaps when things slow down a bit, I'll post my full defense of my position.

 

[Der Alte]

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<T523>My chief reason for being an annalist is based on the character of God. I do not believe He is a God of eternal punishment. There may be some suffering in the final death, but I can't reconcile His character with eternal torment. There are many other passages which I could use to justify my position, but unfortunately I don't have time to dig it all out now. Perhaps when things slow down a bit, I'll post my full defense of my position.<end>

end

I have highlighted the problem I have with this post. The first person personal pronoun and no zero none scripture.

 

[Tomb523]

<T523>My chief reason for being an annalist is based on the character of God. I do not believe He is a God of eternal punishment. There may be some suffering in the final death, but I can't reconcile His character with eternal torment. There are many other passages which I could use to justify my position, but unfortunately I don't have time to dig it all out now. Perhaps when things slow down a bit, I'll post my full defense of my position.<end>
I have highlighted the problem I have with this post. The first person personal pronoun and no zero none scripture.

So you didn't comprehend that I acknowledged I wasn't using scripture and might try to at a later time? I would like to say I'm sorry you had a problem with my post, but I feel no remorse. My goal is not to please you and if you have a problem with my post, let me invite you to pass them by.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<T523>So you didn't comprehend that I acknowledged I wasn't using scripture and might try to at a later time? I would like to say I'm sorry you had a problem with my post, but I feel no remorse. My goal is not to please you and if you have a problem with my post, let me invite you to pass them by.<end>

end

Reminds me of a line from the movie "Untouchables." Sean Connery tells Kevin Costner as Elliot Ness. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." I quoted 11 verses of scripture you blow me off with unsupported personal opinion.
.....I have been at this forum for about 2 decades. I have seen the same arguments and the same out-of-context proof texts over and over and over. I soon learned to start saving all my replies. I rarely have to look anything up, so when I post or reply I already have all the relevant scripture. I anxiously await your reply to the scripture I posted above.

 

[SkyWriting]

All Christians agree that God is love, but how can a loving God condone eternal torture even for people who deserve it?

It's "Torment" and it is self administered. Even those in Hell accept their fate.
To protest their deserved fate would be like kicking kittens and eating ice cream for a reward. (I admit I kicked one out of a fire pit once.)

 

[Tomb523]

<T523>So you didn't comprehend that I acknowledged I wasn't using scripture and might try to at a later time? I would like to say I'm sorry you had a problem with my post, but I feel no remorse. My goal is not to please you and if you have a problem with my post, let me invite you to pass them by.<end>
Reminds me of a line from the movie "Untouchables." Sean Connery tells Kevin Costner as Elliot Ness. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." I quoted 11 verses of scripture you blow me off with unsupported personal opinion.
.....I have been at this forum for about 2 decades. I have seen the same arguments and the same out-of-context proof texts over and over and over. I soon learned to start saving all my replies. I rarely have to look anything up, so when I post or reply I already have all the relevant scripture. I anxiously await your reply to the scripture I posted above.

So I see the problem here. Because my post immediately followed yours you felt it was a direct response to refute your position. It was not. I was responding to the entire thread and it wasn't directed at your post or anyone else's. It was just a general comment on the topic. As I said, I will at some point respond, either in this thread or another, my full arguments. The main reason I am not at this time is because I am working and traveling for close to 80 hours a week and digging into scripture right now is something I just cannot do.

I am not really hear to debate a topic and I don't want to feel I must justify every position I take as it is not a debate forum. Having said that, let me also add that I rested my opinion on what I believe is the Character of God and that character is revealed throughout the entire bible. It cannot be justified by a verse here and there. It is a contextual discernment based on Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. That is my scriptural basis, but at some point, when my work settles down a bit, I'll try to spell out those behaviors that lead me to my conclusion, but I doubt at this point, I'll address your comments specifically as, again, I don't come here to debate, but to offer the discernment offered me by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<T523>I am not really hear to debate a topic and I don't want to feel I must justify every position I take as it is not a debate forum. Having said that, let me also add that I rested my opinion on what I believe is the Character of God and that character is revealed throughout the entire bible. It cannot be justified by a verse here and there. It is a contextual discernment based on Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. That is my scriptural basis, but at some point, when my work settles down a bit, I'll try to spell out those behaviors that lead me to my conclusion, but I doubt at this point, I'll address your comments specifically as, again, I don't come here to debate, but to offer the discernment offered me by the Holy Spirit.<end>

end

If you are looking for a place where you can present your "discernment" of scripture without having it challenged, this ain't it. This is a discussion forum. We discuss the topics.
.....As I said in my previous post. I have been active at this forum for about 2 decades. I doubt that there is an argument or set of scriptures I have not heard in support of Universal Reconciliation. If God is going to save all mankind no matter what, why is there not one single verse where God, Himself or Jesus Himself clearly states that all mankind will be saved?
…..According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs?

 

[ClementofA]

If God is going to save all mankind no matter what, why is there not one single verse where God, Himself or Jesus Himself clearly states that all mankind will be saved?

If God is NOT going to save all mankind no matter what, why is there not one single verse where God, Himself or Jesus Himself clearly states that all mankind will NOT be saved?

In fact, why aren't there dozens of verses - CLEARLY - stating, in unambiguous terms, that some will NEVER be saved? If such a monstrous, horrific thing were true, you'ld think Love Omnipotent Crucified would have warned us - clearly - not only once, but dozens of times. What else would be more important in all the Scriptures. Yet - nowhere - NOT ONCE - can such be found. Therefore, the teaching of endless tortures is clearly false.

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Choir Loft]

Much confusion here about Greek words and misunderstandings of Hebrew references.

Specifically the word gehenna and hell come to mind.

To begin it should be recognized that NO ONE has been able to refute the Biblical assertion that humans are anything other than mortal; body, mind and spirit. The Bible says so. Arguments about hell and gehenna mistakenly rest upon deliberate misunderstanding or pagan myth.

God is merciful even to the wicked and does NOT engage in eternal torture.

The wicked are destroyed in the Second Death. There are no second chances because the sentence of death is eternally irreversible.

Jesus never talked about hell.

He did talk about gehenna and sheol, which are not the same thing as Plato's version of hell. Hell is a pagan idea because it depends upon the Platonic assertion that some part of the human being remains conscious and indestructible even after death. The Bible makes no such statement.

Sheol was a Hebrew concept of the place of the dead. It was understood to be a temporary abode of the dead where the dead slept. Basically its a bedroom for the dead, nothing more and nothing less.

There are a tiny number of references to rousing the dead from sheol, none of which suggest it was anything like a torture chamber or the Roman church's concept of Purgatory. (1 Sam 28:7, Luke 16:21) The dead slept in sheol....until the resurrection of Christ when sheol itself was destroyed. (Matt 27:52)

Gehenna is assumed by many scholars to be a real place - a valley to the east and south of Jerusalem.

It was a place where garbage and the refuse of society was discarded and burned. The fires of the dump were said to never be extinguished because there was always more garbage tossed into the flames. Likewise the worms there never stopped feasting on waste food or the bodies of criminals and the poor. It was a place of disgust and excrement and rejection. Jesus' reference to gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, was clearly understood by those who heard Him. It was also the place where children were sacrificed to the pagan god Molech by fire (2 Chronicles 33:6).

References to the destiny of the damned were clear and well understood by the Jews who heard Jesus. When Jesus referred to gehenna as a final destiny of the wicked, it is the valley of Hinnom He was talking about. It was not a place of torture. It was a place where the dead were consumed finally and totally.

The destiny of the damned is extinction and absolute final destruction in the Lake of Fire. While the lake continued to burn and the worm continued to eat, those cast into it were totally consumed.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...