CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY

[Der Alte]

I'm not going to help you justify hell. I'm not going to play that game.
I should think you'd have figured that out by now.
Oh well......let's take another turn at this shall we?
Circular reasoning is an argument that commits the logical fallacy of assuming what it is attempting to prove.
It attempts to prove itself by referring to itself. You continually do that. Pick any of your own posts on the subject of hell. You refuse the evidence of your own words because you are more interested in obfuscating the subject at hand and in making feeble attempts to misdirect the dialogue. What is the subject at hand? Have we forgotten?
AGAIN.....
My challenge is to disprove the Biblical assertion;
1. man is mortal (Genesis 6:3) and
2. only God is immortal. (1 Timothy 6:16)
All dogmatic arguments attempting to prove hell must be based upon immortality of man which is unBiblical.
The Bible says man is mortal, therefore man's destiny is total complete destruction - oblivion - at time of death;
- unless -
God grants part of His own immortality to man.
This is called derived immortality and it doesn't happen unless one accepts Christ as Lord and savior at which point the Second Birth, spiritual regeneration, is granted. This is the whole point of the gospel message and the blessed hope of man.
If man is already immortal, then the Second Birth would not be necessary and Christ would have died on the cross for nothing. Instead the Bible says He gave His life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28) Ransom from what? The Second Death.
I am really not interested in your caliginous avoidance of the subject at hand - WHICH IS - the mortality of man. The dogma of hell has no foundation in logic when the Biblical context of human mortality is applied. Therefore eternal torture is neither possible, sustainable, relevant nor the revealed will of God.
GOD DOES NOT TORTURE. GOD KILLS.
I will not entertain any apologies until and unless the subject at had is addressed in a factual logical Biblically accurate exegesis. Dogmatic fanatical defense of hell only proves my challenge stands as stated and cannot be disproved.
Therefore the doctrine of hell is false.
The Biblical standard of Final Judgment stands as stated. At time of death the wicked are totally utterly finally and completely destroyed - annihilated.
Therefore it is of utmost importance that the message of God's gracious gift of forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ be taken seriously. The alternative is the Second Death.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The only game here is more meaningless hollering from somewhere with no, zero, none evidence to back up the empty accusations. You have not backed up the false accusation that I used circular reasoning/logic, because you cannot.
.....As I stated before I don't start my premise with the conclusion therefore I have not used a circular reasoning or logic. I started with Biblical and historical evidence which you evidently have not even read. My Bible has 31,172 verses evidently your Bible only has 2 verses.
..... So unless I see something resembling a rational, reasoned argument instead of the repetitive "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I'm gone, Auf Wiedersehen.

 

[Choir Loft]

The only game here is more meaningless hollering from somewhere with no, zero, none evidence to back up the empty accusations. You have not backed up the false accusation that I used circular reasoning/logic, because you cannot.
.....As I stated before I don't start my premise with the conclusion therefore I have not used a circular reasoning or logic. I started with Biblical and historical evidence which you evidently have not even read. My Bible has 31,172 verses evidently your Bible only has 2 verses.
..... So unless I see something resembling a rational, reasoned argument instead of the repetitive "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I'm gone, Auf Wiedersehen.

I'm right and you're wrong?

Over and over again I've issued challenge to you or anyone else to prove the Bible wrong when it says man is mortal.

Over and over again you've ignored the challenge and falsely accused me of irrationality or whatever else you can think of. If YOUR Bible has over thirty one thousand verses, then open it and find some that refute the contention MAN IS MORTAL. You can't do it because it isn't there. Fussing at me won't make it so.

AGAIN - the Biblical contention is that man is mortal and only God is immortal. This premise is basic to interpretations about the nature of Final Judgment and the afterlife. Use the Bible to learn truth - not to justify pagan dogma.

According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, Herodotus (a Greek historian) recorded twin pagan ideas about the afterlife. Brittanica states Herodotus claimed the idea of an indestructible human spirit came from the Egyptians. Herodotus further recorded that the idea was coupled with everlasting torture and adopted by the Greeks - specifically Plato. St. Augustine was the primary carrier of this intellectual disease into Christian theology. It NEVER originated in the Bible. Search and you will see it isn't there at all.

"People do not believe lies because they have to, but because they want to." - Malcolm Muggeridge

The dogma of hell suggests a god who approves of and creates a venue for the eternal continuation of sin.

Is that the kind of god you believe in? The doctrine of hell sounds more like the lies and wishful thinking of a creature like satan, not the god of righteousness and justice described in the Holy Bible.

Is the reader searching for truth or looking for some way to justify a dogma with misleading tradition and verses taken out of context?

The Bible says God despises sin and ultimately destroys it in all its forms. The textual image of Sodom is most revealing in this regard. Following its judgment Abraham looked down upon the valley and saw only smoke rising from the ruin. Nothing remained of the five cities except burned rocks and wisps of smoke. Sodom's judgment was permanent. It's destruction is everlasting. Sodom never arose from the ashes. That's the destiny of all unrepentant sinners. There is no immortality to save them and no opportunity to continue in their life of sin. There is only total utter annihilation.

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth and nothing more."
- Morpheus THE MATRIX

The time to repent of sin is now. The time to avoid the Second Death is now - because we are all mortal. Time is our enemy, Christ Jesus our only savior.

DEATH TO SIN.

If you can prove man isn't mortal by use of Biblical reference, then do it.

Otherwise stop obsessing over pagan beliefs in everlasting torment.
It's a dead end - literally.

God will utterly finally and totally destroy the wicked in the Second Death.
BUT God is merciful as well as just and has provided an escape in Christ Jesus.
He will give of His own eternal life to those who repent and trust Him.

What greater mercy and gift is there to proclaim?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Der Alte]

I'm right and you're wrong?
Over and over again I've issued challenge to you or anyone else to prove the Bible wrong when it says man is mortal.
Over and over again you've ignored the challenge and falsely accused me of irrationality or whatever else you can think of. If YOUR Bible has over thirty one thousand verses, then open it and find some that refute the contention MAN IS MORTAL. You can't do it because it isn't there. Fussing at me won't make it so.
AGAIN - the Biblical contention is that man is mortal and only God is immortal. This premise is basic to interpretations about the nature of Final Judgment and the afterlife. Use the Bible to learn truth - not to justify pagan dogma.
According to Encyclopedia Brittanica, Herodotus (a Greek historian) recorded twin pagan ideas about the afterlife. Brittanica states Herodotus claimed the idea of an indestructible human spirit came from the Egyptians. Herodotus further recorded that the idea was coupled with everlasting torture and adopted by the Greeks - specifically Plato. St. Augustine was the primary carrier of this intellectual disease into Christian theology. It NEVER originated in the Bible. Search and you will see it isn't there at all.
"People do not believe lies because they have to, but because they want to." - Malcolm Muggeridge
The dogma of hell suggests a god who approves of and creates a venue for the eternal continuation of sin.
Is that the kind of god you believe in? The doctrine of hell sounds more like the lies and wishful thinking of a creature like satan, not the god of righteousness and justice described in the Holy Bible.
Is the reader searching for truth or looking for some way to justify a dogma with misleading tradition and verses taken out of context?
The Bible says God despises sin and ultimately destroys it in all its forms. The textual image of Sodom is most revealing in this regard. Following its judgment Abraham looked down upon the valley and saw only smoke rising from the ruin. Nothing remained of the five cities except burned rocks and wisps of smoke. Sodom's judgment was permanent. It's destruction is everlasting. Sodom never arose from the ashes. That's the destiny of all unrepentant sinners. There is no immortality to save them and no opportunity to continue in their life of sin. There is only total utter annihilation.
"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember, all I'm offering is the truth and nothing more."
- Morpheus THE MATRIX
The time to repent of sin is now. The time to avoid the Second Death is now - because we are all mortal. Time is our enemy, Christ Jesus our only savior.
DEATH TO SIN.
If you can prove man isn't mortal by use of Biblical reference, then do it.
Otherwise stop obsessing over pagan beliefs in everlasting torment.
It's a dead end - literally.Times New Roman
God will utterly finally and totally destroy the wicked in the Second Death.
BUT God is merciful as well as just and has provided an escape in Christ Jesus.
He will give of His own eternal life to those who repent and trust Him.
What greater mercy and gift is there to proclaim?
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

More meaningless hollering which does not address anything in my post. The internet equivalent of "I'm right and you'e wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" I'm not here to play your sophomoric games. If you have some scripture you wish to discuss, I might respond. You keep making the patently false accusation that I believe pagan dogma. You demand that I quote only scripture and you have relied on Encyclopedia Brittanica and the Matrix while you have ignored the historical evidence I quoted Talmud, Jewish Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Judaica. If you want to discuss scripture and some credible historical evidence, here it is. My opinion is you don't address it because you can't.And for your information there is no second death. Not one verse anywhere says anyone has or will die a second time.
…..According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them. Concerning “eternal punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

 

[Der Alte]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

 

[ClementofA]

M

Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both
sheol and gehinnom.
Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the
belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).
Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Scripture says:

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
(Titus 1:14).

Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom

Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/

 

[ClementofA]

When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

Addressed here:

Matthew 7:21-23:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-35#post-72162632

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Addressed here:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141042

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.

Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.

In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.

A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

That passages opposes your theories:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
the grace of God should taste death for every man.

14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced instead of correcting their belief.

He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.

 

[ClementofA]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

​

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

---

 

[Choir Loft]

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.​

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The quoted post reiterates Universalist dogma, which is altogether inconsistent with Biblical context.

The presupposition of these arguments is that hell or whatever passes for a negative outcome of Final Judgment is nonexistent. There is neither hell or the Second Death according to Universalist statements.

Pie in the sky...
bye and bye...
for the wicked and I.

The posts above use scripture to support a false assertion.

Universalism is not a search for truth, but instead uses Biblical passages to justify a devious philosophy of blessings for the wicked in the afterlife.

Universalism asserts that at the end of the day all God is interested in is that a good time will have been had by all.

There is no Final Judgment in this caliginous cacophony of church-babble. Universalists don't seek truth in scripture because it would violate the boundaries of their day dream - and possibly denude their coffers of donations. Therefore the argument as stated is trapped in its own spiderweb of lies and cannot move away from its own error.

Many times I've stated the challenge to prove man is immortal.
The challenge has not been met because its impossible to prove the Bible wrong.

Man is mortal.
Only God is immortal.
Therefore the natural destiny of man is to die - body and spirit.

Man is mortal and suffers death both physical and spiritual. The gospel good news is that those found faithful in Christ are blessed with God's own eternal life. These are few - not all.

The assumption that even the wicked are saved, or somehow subject to remedial procedures beyond the grave are not mentioned at all in scripture. Universalist dogma argues eternal life is given to unrepentant sinners. There is no justice in that at all. Neither is it Biblical. God hates sin and will not welcome it into His eternal dwelling. Sin is to be obliterated, exterminated and completely expunged.

DEATH TO SIN.

Man is mortal. Begin by proving that statement wrong.

Morality results in physical and spiritual death called the Second Death. The saved in Christ do not suffer this judgment because they are justified in Christ. All others are not.

Posts entered here fuss and fume and neatly AVOID the initial challenge made by this thread.

PROVE MAN IS NOT MORTAL.

Constant obfuscation dramatizes the opposite - that it cannot be disproven.

Why not just admit it and take things as they come from there?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Der Alte]

The quoted post reiterates Universalist dogma, which is altogether inconsistent with Biblical context.
The presupposition of these arguments is that hell or whatever passes for a negative outcome of Final Judgment is stated using scripture to support a failed assertion. Truth isn't sought in scripture because it would violate the boundaries of Universalist dogma. Therefore the argument as stated is trapped in its own spiderweb of lies and cannot move away from error.
Many times I've stated the challenge to prove man is immortal. The challenge has not been met because its impossible to prove the Bible wrong.
Man is mortal.
Only God is immortal.
Therefore the natural destiny of man is to die - body and spirit.
Universalist presuppositions regarding any negative outcome of Final Judgment, either hell or Second Death, is corrupted by its bias against ANY negative outcome. All are saved in its heretical dogma, but that is not what Jesus stated on many occasions and its not within the context of scripture.
Man is mortal and suffers death both physical and spiritual. The gospel good news is that those found faithful in Christ are blessed with God's own eternal life. These are few - not all. If Universalism was true, there would be evidence of global spiritual regeneration. So far as any of us is witness there is no such thing happening - such a thing is pure childish fantasy.
The assumption that even the wicked are saved, or somehow subject to remedial procedures beyond the grave are not mentioned at all in scripture. Universalist dogma argues eternal life is given to unrepentant sinners. There is no justice in that at all. Neither is it Biblical. God hates sin and will not welcome it into His house. Sin is to be obliterated.
DEATH TO SIN.
Man is mortal. Begin with proving that statement wrong. Morality results in physical and spiritual death called the Second Death. The saved in Christ do not suffer this judgment because they are justified in Christ. All others are not.
You fuss and fume and neatly AVOID the initial challenge made by this thread.
PROVE MAN IS NOT MORTAL.
Constant obfuscation dramatizes the opposite - that it cannot be disproven.
Why not just admit it and take things as they come from there?
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The same empty, meaningless repetition over and over and over which proves absolutely nothing except you cannot or will not engage in a reasonable, rational discussion of anything but your out-of-context mantra about mortal-immortal. Since you will not address anything in my posts I return the favor. That is all you can do so let us start with the words mortal and immortal. What are the Hebrew and Greek words and what exactly do they mean?

 

[Choir Loft]

The same empty, meaningless repetition over and over and over which proves absolutely nothing except you cannot or will not engage in a reasonable, rational discussion of anything but your out-of-context mantra about mortal-immortal. Since you will not address anything in my posts I return the favor. That is all you can do so let us start with the words mortal and immortal. What are the Hebrew and Greek words and what exactly do they mean?

Yours is the same feeble attempt to hijack the subject by appealing to heretical dogma and pagan ideology.

I will be very glad to engage in a reasonable discussion provided you cease ignoring my original challenge. Either admit its true or prove it wrong.

DISPROVE THE BIBLE ASSERTION THAT MAN IS MORTAL.

The mortality of man is the pillar upon which the Biblical teaching of the Second Death is pinned as well as the same stumbling block that prevents your justification of an argument empty of meaning and logic.

You accuse me of illogic, but refuse to answer the challenge. Prove sinners are immortal using only the Bible as a reference. Again....you can't do it because the Bible asserts man is mortal.

Your sad reliance upon twisting and focusing upon words alone even as you ignore the context of their use is what sets us apart - and you from proper understanding of the Bible and God's plan of redemption. One cannot build an entire interpretation from a single word.

Honest and deliberate scholarship requires consideration of the context of a subject over the entire length of its use in the Bible. Prophets and apostles didn't assert their teaching by appeals to a single word. They used multiple words and examples to teach. Even Jesus used multiple examples and words to make His point. Are you somehow better than this classic method of exegetical examination and teaching?

If you are really so concerned about my constant return to two statements of Biblical truth, then refute them.

Man is mortal.
Only God is immortal.

The common idea of hell is based on pagan notions of some substance of man which does not die and which retains consciousness after physical death. This is not Biblical, but doctrines of demons have constantly used the pagan idea to form all sorts of false dogmas.

It's really quite simple. Why do you continue to obfuscate the issue? Why do you continue to redefine two simple statements of Biblical truth? Why do you seek confusion instead of simple truth?

Answer the challenge or admit you cannot.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Dragon Fly]

I'm new here and the poll closed before I signed into this fine forum. I just wanted to chime in and say that I believe immortality is conditional based on verses like John 3:16, Romans 6:23, and others. The Bible literally says that the wages of sin is death, and whosoever believes in Him shall have eternal life.

 

[ClementofA]

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Dragon Fly]

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

I don't understand the term "endless annihilationism", what do you mean by this term?

 

[ClementofA]

I don't understand the term "endless annihilationism", what do you mean by this term?

It's the equivalent of endless oblivion or endless nonexistence. Rather than endless tortures or torments. If one does not exist, they cannot suffer tortures.

 

[Dragon Fly]

It's the equivalent of endless oblivion or endless nonexistence. Rather than endless tortures or torments. If one does not exist, they cannot suffer tortures.

Thanks. That makes sense. Destruction of body and soul.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . The common idea of hell is based on pagan notions of some substance of man which does not die and which retains consciousness after physical death. This is not Biblical, but doctrines of demons have constantly used the pagan idea to form all sorts of false dogmas. . . ...

Total rubbish as I have shown from historical sources more than once. Some folks get completely irate when they can't control the discussion and make it go the way they want it to. You insist that I answer questions about mortal/immortal when you can't/won't even define the words you are arguing about.
.....But just in case there are some in this forum who might believe that you know what you are talking about here are some passages where God, Himself, and Jesus, Himself, speak about the unsaved having some kind of conscience existence after death.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.…..The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

And before you even try the "It's a parable or a figure of speech," You can't just say it is figurative you have to prove it.

 

[Dragon Fly]

Matt 10:28
Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul...

That is easy enough to understand.

 

[Choir Loft]

It's the equivalent of endless oblivion or endless nonexistence. Rather than endless tortures or torments. If one does not exist, they cannot suffer tortures.

The use of language in definition of the term 'Second Death' is important. Exegetical interpretations of any subject utilize this restriction. Why? Because strict definition of terms refines the meaning.

Those who argue for the Second Death, as opposed to eternal torture, prefer to use words of a more definite and exceptionally sharp meaning.

Words such as extinction, destruction, consumption, death and annihilation are generally used to transmit a fine point on the subject.

Annihilationism is the term generally used to describe Biblical interpretation of the destiny of the wicked - referred to in the Bible as the Second Death.

ClementofA's appraisal of the definition of the generic term annihilationism is pretty good. A small exception is use of the phrase 'endless oblivion or endless nonexistence'. While I'm not opposed to the general flavor of Clement's definition I wish to put a fine point on the issue by stating that physical death as well as Second Death isn't really endless. It is a complete and total end of whatever life one is choosing to debate; physical or spiritual. If it seems I'm picking at nits, I suppose I am. Literature of scholars who examine the subject is always very careful to make such fine distinctions. I can do no less. Death isn't endless so much as it is Final. Nothing comes after it.

The Bible does not support the pagan concept of hell, which originated with the Egyptians, was philosophically adopted by the Greeks and finally by the Roman Catholic church and its offspring - the Protestants.

As an example for the reader to ponder, I submit a quote from a Greek Orthodox prelate. (hh) This quotation is submitted to establish the aberration of hell that was passed from the Greeks to the Roman church - and thus to us. The reader can clearly see how twisted the myth of hell becomes when examined via dogmatic statement alone.

* * *

The Bible states two key principles which inevitably lead to the context of Second Death - extinction of the unregenerate human spirit. These twin concepts are; man is mortal & only God is immortal.

If the Biblical assertion of human mortality is true, then it logically follows that eternal punishment in some spiritual dungeon is impossible. Death means dead - a term and condition that's easy to understand. There is no activity for a mass of decomposing flesh and unregenerate spirit. They are simply consumed.

If the Biblical assertion that only God is immortal is true, then the gospel declaration that God chooses to impart His immortality comes into stark clarity and reality. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior shall be granted God's own eternal life. The wicked don't receive anything. Even the little they may have is taken from them. (Matthew 25:14-30)

On the other hand, there's coin to be made and plenty of it by those who assume the human spirit continues nonetheless. Hollywood, for instance, is currently enjoying a boom in story telling about the walking dead. Mary Shelly began the modern myth by animating her fictional monster. People love this trash.

The Bible is consistent throughout its pages when it says God kills. Scripture states in proverbs parables prophecy and object lesson that God takes no pleasure in killing. If God doesn't like killing, then it also follows He would not enjoy torture. Nowhere does the Bible say He likes to kill or that He is some sort of vindictive sadist who runs a foul chamber of horrors in the bowels of the earth. These are pagan ideas unsupported by the Bible.

Then again hell isn't the only pagan idea embraced by the church. The institution has corrupted itself with a multitude of such myths lies and fantasies - including but not restricted to institutional support of leaders who rape children. Shall we believe everything the church tells us to believe or shall we diligently search out the truth for ourselves? 2 Timothy 2:15 isn't just a verse for children to memorize in Sunday school. It applies to all those who follow Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

PS
Elisa is a former Catholic nun who has shared with me the many reasons she left the church. One of them was the unofficial attitude of its priests and bishops that the laity ought not study the Bible for themselves because "the Bible is not their playground."

(hh)
Paradise and hell are not two different places. Such an idea is an idolatrous concept. Rather they signify two different conditions [ways or states of being], which originate from the same uncreated source, and are perceived by man as two, differing experiences. More precisely, they are the same experience, except that they are perceived differently by man, depending on his internal state.
- Father George Metallinos [OrthodoxyToday.org]
(italics are mine)

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

So I see the problem here. Because my post immediately followed yours you felt it was a direct response to refute your position. It was not. I was responding to the entire thread and it wasn't directed at your post or anyone else's. It was just a general comment on the topic. As I said, I will at some point respond, either in this thread or another, my full arguments. The main reason I am not at this time is because I am working and traveling for close to 80 hours a week and digging into scripture right now is something I just cannot do.

I am not really hear to debate a topic and I don't want to feel I must justify every position I take as it is not a debate forum. Having said that, let me also add that I rested my opinion on what I believe is the Character of God and that character is revealed throughout the entire bible. It cannot be justified by a verse here and there. It is a contextual discernment based on Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. That is my scriptural basis, but at some point, when my work settles down a bit, I'll try to spell out those behaviors that lead me to my conclusion, but I doubt at this point, I'll address your comments specifically as, again, I don't come here to debate, but to offer the discernment offered me by the Holy Spirit.

You do realize that you are in a forum called "Controversial theology," right? A forum in general is for people to share and be shared with. To think I can come in and share what I believe, but not think others have a right to disagree with me or even argue their position versus mine just isn't healthy thinking. I don't see any Scriptural examples exhibiting such an approach.

Don't you think that people who think differently than you might also be basing their belief on what they identify as the Character of God using the same contextual discernment based on Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21 that you base yours on?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The use of language in definition of the term 'Second Death' is important. Exegetical interpretations of any subject utilize this restriction. Why? Because strict definition of terms refines the meaning.

Those who argue for the Second Death, as opposed to eternal torture, prefer to use words of a more definite and exceptionally sharp meaning.

Words such as extinction, destruction, consumption, death and annihilation are generally used to transmit a fine point on the subject.

Annihilationism is the term generally used to describe Biblical interpretation of the destiny of the wicked - referred to in the Bible as the Second Death.

ClementofA's appraisal of the definition of the generic term annihilationism is pretty good. A small exception is use of the phrase 'endless oblivion or endless nonexistence'. While I'm not opposed to the general flavor of Clement's definition I wish to put a fine point on the issue by stating that physical death as well as Second Death isn't really endless. It is a complete and total end of whatever life one is choosing to debate; physical or spiritual. If it seems I'm picking at nits, I suppose I am. Literature of scholars who examine the subject is always very careful to make such fine distinctions. I can do no less. Death isn't endless so much as it is Final. Nothing comes after it.

The Bible does not support the pagan concept of hell, which originated with the Egyptians, was philosophically adopted by the Greeks and finally by the Roman Catholic church and its offspring - the Protestants.

As an example for the reader to ponder, I submit a quote from a Greek Orthodox prelate. (hh) This quotation is submitted to establish the aberration of hell that was passed from the Greeks to the Roman church - and thus to us. The reader can clearly see how twisted the myth of hell becomes when examined via dogmatic statement alone.

* * *

The Bible states two key principles which inevitably lead to the context of Second Death - extinction of the unregenerate human spirit. These twin concepts are; man is mortal & only God is immortal.

If the Biblical assertion of human mortality is true, then it logically follows that eternal punishment in some spiritual dungeon is impossible. Death means dead - a term and condition that's easy to understand. There is no activity for a mass of decomposing flesh and unregenerate spirit. They are simply consumed.

If the Biblical assertion that only God is immortal is true, then the gospel declaration that God chooses to impart His immortality comes into stark clarity and reality. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior shall be granted God's own eternal life. The wicked don't receive anything. Even the little they may have is taken from them. (Matthew 25:14-30)

On the other hand, there's coin to be made and plenty of it by those who assume the human spirit continues nonetheless. Hollywood, for instance, is currently enjoying a boom in story telling about the walking dead. Mary Shelly began the modern myth by animating her fictional monster. People love this trash.

The Bible is consistent throughout its pages when it says God kills. Scripture states in proverbs parables prophecy and object lesson that God takes no pleasure in killing. If God doesn't like killing, then it also follows He would not enjoy torture. Nowhere does the Bible say He likes to kill or that He is some sort of vindictive sadist who runs a foul chamber of horrors in the bowels of the earth. These are pagan ideas unsupported by the Bible.

Then again hell isn't the only pagan idea embraced by the church. The institution has corrupted itself with a multitude of such myths lies and fantasies - including but not restricted to institutional support of leaders who rape children. Shall we believe everything the church tells us to believe or shall we diligently search out the truth for ourselves? 2 Timothy 2:15 isn't just a verse for children to memorize in Sunday school. It applies to all those who follow Christ.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

PS
Elisa is a former Catholic nun who has shared with me the many reasons she left the church. One of them was the unofficial attitude of its priests and bishops that the laity ought not study the Bible for themselves because "the Bible is not their playground."

(hh)
Paradise and hell are not two different places. Such an idea is an idolatrous concept. Rather they signify two different conditions [ways or states of being], which originate from the same uncreated source, and are perceived by man as two, differing experiences. More precisely, they are the same experience, except that they are perceived differently by man, depending on his internal state.
- Father George Metallinos [OrthodoxyToday.org]
(italics are mine)

The problem with the idea that "hell is a pagan concept" is that Jesus talked about hell, as if it was real--not as if He was debunking a pagan myth. Jesus didn't have to talk about gehenna; BUT, He did. The concept of the lake of fire didn't have to be brought up at all, but it was.

Why would Jesus teach something that didn't exist or wasn't true?

The loving God approach appeals to the reason and emotion of man which is far inferior to God's wisdom, according to God. But, the same God that created man created lucifer. Lucifer chose against God. In addition to whatever struggles he has already, he will be locked in a pit for 1000 years, then released, then put into the lake of fire and brimstone where death, hell, the beast, the false prophet, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life is being cast. With regard to the devil, it says he will be tormented day and night for ever and ever (or "for ages of ages"--either way a very very long time compared to what we experience here on earth).

If God created lucifer (satan) knowing that satan would be tormented day and night forever and ever, why is it inconsistent to think that the men and women who choose against Him could experience the same fate?

If there is a time of torment at all, after one's fate is sealed, why is it inconsistent with the character of God for it to be a really long time rather than a relatively shorter time?