Concerning the Return of Jesus

[Timtofly]

I have no idea of what you're talking about here, so I can't even attempt to respond.

You must not accept that things will get better, just get worse, even though Christ is in charge?

 

[keras]

The text does not say that. No reason why it can't happen very shortly before that when Christ returns and we then meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17).

The reason that no one will receive immortality before the GWT Judgment is; it is quite impractical and illogical for mortals and immortals to coexist.

Do you think some "souls" currently in heaven will not be in the book of life, or is no one in Paradise now, and Jesus lied on the Cross about Paradise? I don't see how God cannot know now and souls have to wait till the GWT.

As born again Christians we have the promise of eternal life. John 3:16
But obviously we don't get it immediately. The Bible tells us when; At the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
What Jesus said to the thief on the cross, was true, as he died then and his next conscious moment will be when his name will be found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:5 is very specific: ALL the dead must wait until the thousand years has ended.

 

[Timtofly]

No one will ever die again once Christ returns and destroys His enemies. Death being cast into the lake of fire shortly after will just be a formality at that point. We're talking about a very short amount of time as far as the difference in our understanding of the timing of when believers will be changed and have their immortal bodies. It's kind of silly, really. That's not our main point of contention and it's not really worth arguing about any longer.

Can you show a return of Christ in Revelation 20? According to Revelation 20, Christ never left earth. So you need to show an ascension as well. Recap theory has so many gaps in Revelation 20, it is worse than Genesis. Satan is just defeated by Christ and is bound at a battle where 10 kings have joined Satan and all are destroyed in Death, then there is a resurrection. Christ never leaves earth. Those ruling on earth never leave earth. Satan is loosed to earth, Satan gathers an army on the earth, that marches to the central government city, where Christ and those resurrected have always been. Why is there so much other assumptions of coming and going in and out of heaven?

Most assuredly there is no physical Kingdom now. Most assuredly John claims Christ stays after Armageddon and sets one up. Why interpret Scripture to contradict other Scripture? Revelation 20 as written does not contradict one other passage in the Bible, not even 2 Peter 3. At the end the earth will be destroyed, because Christ's return covers the whole day with the Lord that is literally 1000 years. If that verse had been placed in any other chapters of Peter, other than that one, you may have a point. But the Holy Spirit put it there so you will not be ignorant. Yet you avoid 1000 years like a plague of ignorance. Yes, those who scoff about a very long time in the past are no better than those who ignore a very long time in the future.

Moving this time should not ease a guilty conscious. It is a physical reign, not a spiritual one. There is the fact that at the Second Coming the physical and spiritual will be joined together as one, and Satan's science, so called, will be fiction, and so will Amil theology. It seems more honest to remove this chapter as a recap and just declare it does not exist, than to claim it is the current condition of this carnal world. It is like trying to convince those observing the Law of Moses that Saturdays do not exist. They are just a recap of S-F, and we are symbolically living Saturday, each Sunday through Friday.

 

[nolidad]

Anyone with basic reading skills will find the text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted word-for-word by the author of the Book of Hebrews after the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6.

The NKJV places the Old Testament text in all UPPERCASE letters. I made it a little larger so you can see it this time.


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


We also find part of the text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted in Hebrews chapter 10.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused about the fulfillment of the New Covenant, or you are confused.


Further proof is found below in chapter 12 of Hebrews.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


C.I. Scofield spent some time in jail for fraud before he became a hero of Dispensational Theology. See the book "The Incredible Scofield" by Joseph Canfield, for a more in depth discussion.

Pastor Sam Adams on Scofield.
Sam Adams - The Everlasting Gospel VS The False Gospels of C.I. Scofield - YouTube

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So as I am not misunderstanding you :

Are you now declaring that since you believe that teh new covenant is fulfilled, all Israelis know the Lord from the least to the greatest?

Are you now declaring that all Israelis have Gods laws written in their hearts?

Are you now declaring that all the house of Israel and Judah have their sins all forgiven and remembered no more by God?

Are you now declaring that those days have come and are now present for the houses of Israel and Judah? This means all of them and not just some of them BTW unless you wish to retranslate the SCripture and make it the word of BAB!

I just want to make sure I don't misunderstand you.

For it clearly seems you are promoting a two people of God doctrine! For teh gentiles we have to accept Christ and gorw and learn, but for eh thouses of Israel and Judah they are by birth infused with knowing God as the terms of the New covenant clearly declares.

Also to let you know- There is othing in the gospels that even hint that Jesus life and eeat fulfilled the New Covenant, but teh gosples celarly quote Jesus as saying He came to fulfill the Old Covenant. So I await you wwisdom in showing where in teh gospels that Jesus said He would fulifll (not mediate ) the New covenant.

Also would you please answer this as well so we can be on the same page here.

Do you believe in the dictionary defintions that show mediating and fuflilling are two completely different events? If not, where do you get your definitions to define these two greek words.

 

[nolidad]

The reason that no one will receive immortality before the GWT Judgment is; it is quite impractical and illogical for mortals and immortals to coexist.

Maybe illogical and impractical form your throne, but Gods Word as written says differently.

As born again Christians we have the promise of eternal life. John 3:16
But obviously we don't get it immediately. The Bible tells us when; At the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium.
What Jesus said to the thief on the cross, was true, as he died then and his next conscious moment will be when his name will be found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:5 is very specific: ALL the dead must wait until the thousand years has ended.

Stop promoting JW dogma.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You must not accept that things will get better, just get worse, even though Christ is in charge?

Things get worse before Christ's return. Then they will be far better after that because we'll inherit the eternal new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The reason that no one will receive immortality before the GWT Judgment is; it is quite impractical and illogical for mortals and immortals to coexist.

But, in my view, that would only be the case for a very brief amount of time. Whatever time Christ would take to burn up the earth when He returns. So, your concern there doesn't really apply to my particular view.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Can you show a return of Christ in Revelation 20?

I've already told you before that I believe Revelation 20:9 correlates with 2 Peter 3:7,10-12.

According to Revelation 20, Christ never left earth. So you need to show an ascension as well.

Show me where in Revelation 20 it mentions Christ being on earth.

Most assuredly there is no physical Kingdom now.

Of course not. Christ's kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36). He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-28, Matt 13:36-43) and at that point we will be on the new earth forever.

Most assuredly John claims Christ stays after Armageddon and sets one up.

Where does he claim that?

Why interpret Scripture to contradict other Scripture?

That's my question for you. You do that repeatedly.

How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with John 5:28-29 where Jesus says there is a singular time/hour/event coming when all of the dead will be raised? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with Matthew 25:31-46, which portrays all people being judged at the same time? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the entire earth being burned up when Christ returns?

 

[BABerean2]

So as I am not misunderstanding you :

Are you now declaring that since you believe that teh new covenant is fulfilled, all Israelis know the Lord from the least to the greatest?

Are you now declaring that all Israelis have Gods laws written in their hearts?

Are you now declaring that all the house of Israel and Judah have their sins all forgiven and remembered no more by God?

Are you now declaring that those days have come and are now present for the houses of Israel and Judah? This means all of them and not just some of them BTW unless you wish to retranslate the SCripture and make it the word of BAB!

I just want to make sure I don't misunderstand you.

It has nothing to do with misunderstanding me.

It has to do with your misunderstanding of the author of the Book of Hebrews.

Your arguments are with him, instead of with me, if you cannot accept the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

All of your questions are answered in the Book of Hebrews.


Try reading the passage below if you are still confused.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


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[keras]

Maybe illogical and impractical form your throne, but Gods Word as written says differently.

Well then, why didn't you provide the Word that says when anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgment.
I am not a JW, but it seems they have this issue correct in their doctrine.

But, in my view, that would only be the case for a very brief amount of time. Whatever time Christ would take to burn up the earth when He returns. So, your concern there doesn't really apply to my particular view.

In the prophesies about the Return, esp Revelation 19:11-21; none of them say He will burn anything at that time.

SJ, you seem to rely more on your beliefs and long held opinions that actual scriptural truths.

Try reading the passage below if you are still confused.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This truth does not address Nolidad's requests in #84.
It is obvious to all that you are obfuscating and cannot prove the New Covenant is fully operational yet.
I already showed when it will come into effect. Isaiah 61:8 When all the Lord's faithful people are gathered into the holy Land.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the prophesies about the Return, esp Revelation 19:11-21; none of them say He will burn anything at that time.

It is all figurative unless you want to believe that Christ will literally slay people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth. We can see from other scripture the way in which the destruction will come, which will be by fire.

SJ, you seem to rely more on your beliefs and long held opinions that actual scriptural truths.

Nonsense. You have so many private interpretations I can't even keep up with it. God does not reveal truth to only one person. But, you are too arrogant to understand that.

 

[nolidad]

Well then, why didn't you provide the Word that says when anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgment.
I am not a JW, but it seems they have this issue correct in their doctrine.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Present tense- not future tense.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hath everlasting life-- present tense again and not future.

Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And despite your JW like snake dance in reinterpreting this- this means what it says. When one is absent from teh body- they are present with the Lord.

YOu then add another problem to your misinterpetation of this you gave me. If one is absent from the body- where do they go????????

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This is all in heaven!
The birde of Jesus is teh Church or the body of Christ! and though you hate grammar and words that diagree with you , it says that teh bride has made herself ready! THE bride, not some of the bride or lots of the bride- but THE bride- the church is in heaven, here works judged, the dross burned and now is ready to marry the Lamb and come to earth to celebrate the wedding supper!

Revelation 20:5-6
King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

See verse 5--THE REST of the dead?? that means some of the dead 1000 years before the great white throne are resurrected! I guess you would have them resurrected as mortals!

These in the first resurrection are called blessed and holy! Then you responded with that srpent dance that this doesn't mean those in the second resurrection are not blessed and holy. But provide no evidence to show so!

Sorry but you rinterpretation is one of four or five here on these verses. Why is yours from God instead of the others and why should anyone accept your word as literal while you take Gods Word and reject it as written? Why should accept yours as written?

 

[keras]

Hath everlasting life-- present tense again and not future.

Present tense in prophecy simply means that its fulfillment is assured.

None of your scriptures say anyone will receive immortality then. No one has yet received it. The Bible tells us when it will be given; Revelation 20:11-15 - NOT before.

The general belief of a change of body for the faithful when Jesus Returns, is wrong and is never said to happen then.
Only the Trib martyrs will be resurrected and they become mortal people again, just as Lazarus did.

This issue is not critical for us, maybe it a harmless belief that we will be changed when Jesus Returns. But wishful thinking is a childs game, we are adults and should believe the Biblical truths.

 

[BABerean2]

It is obvious to all that you are obfuscating and cannot prove the New Covenant is fully operational yet.

If the New Covenant is not fully operational, you are still partially guilty of your sin and are doomed to eternal punishment for that sin.


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[Timtofly]

I've already told you before that I believe Revelation 20:9 correlates with 2 Peter 3:7,10-12.

Show me where in Revelation 20 it mentions Christ being on earth.

Of course not. Christ's kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36). He will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-28, Matt 13:36-43) and at that point we will be on the new earth forever.

Where does he claim that?

That's my question for you. You do that repeatedly.

How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with John 5:28-29 where Jesus says there is a singular time/hour/event coming when all of the dead will be raised? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with Matthew 25:31-46, which portrays all people being judged at the same time? How does your interpretation of Revelation 20 line up with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the entire earth being burned up when Christ returns?

Christ is here, because the scene is still the aftermath of Armageddon. All dead, then a resurrection, still on earth. Why on earth? Because God on the throne came to earth. The church now judges on thrones, over those on earth. Then it says these earth people reign for 1000 years with Christ. That is why the Second Coming is not the battle of Armageddon.

The hour in John 5:28-29 is not indicative of a single hour. Jesus said the time was already at hand and within a few weeks, raised Lazarus from the dead. You cannot say that single hour applies to all resurrections. That would contradict Scripture. The Revelation 20:4 resurrection is still not the single hour. There is not a long drawn out symbolic hour from Lazarus to the GWT. The GWT is the last and that is the single hour. That is if the GWT is even a resurrection. If there is no "second chances" then what is the point of resurrection that one goes from sheol to the lake of fire?

In fact, if the earth dissolves at the Second Coming where did the dead go in that instant? There would be no earth to be resurrected from.

When John does not change the scene from Christ on earth to Christ leaving earth, the default would be Christ is still here, not someplace else. These people resurrected are no where declared to be in heaven. Why would you go out of the context and place them in heaven?

You accept the leap in change between 20 and 21, but then deny the lack of scene change between 19 and 20. You are the one along with other amil who have to come up with some bizarre explanation to explain what happened to Satan at Armageddon, then totally change the context of this next 1000 year reign of Christ, and where this group of resurrected people even come from. This scenario does not even contradict 2 Peter 3. Your interpretation has to twist both passages to fit. Even Peter distinguishes between when the heavens are burned up and when the earth is burned up, but you give Peter no option, but to contradict his own wording.

 

[keras]

If the New Covenant is not fully operational, you are still partially guilty of your sin and are doomed to eternal punishment for that sin. .

Rather than making nasty accusations, why don't you address the six tenets of the New Covenant and explain how you think they relate to the world and Christians, as it is today.
While you are at it, address Isaiah 61:8.

 

[BABerean2]

While you are at it, address Isaiah 61:8.

Isa 61:8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant.


Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


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[keras]

Isa 61:8 "For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant.


Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, .

Again, a failure to prove the results of the New Covenant.

Jesus has done His part and we thank Him for it and accept His Salvation.
Why is it so hard for you and most, to see that much must happen before Jesus Returns. We know He will Return to a world far different to what it is now.
Any ideas that one day, just like today, we will look up and see Jesus coming on that white horse, must be dispelled.
Expect hard times of testing and trials, we must stand firm in our faith to receive the rewards He will bring with Him. Matthew 16:27

But; at that time we, His people; Romans 9:24-26, WILL have His Laws written in our hearts, and we WILL know the Lord is present spiritually with us.

 

[nolidad]

It has nothing to do with misunderstanding me.

It has to do with your misunderstanding of the author of the Book of Hebrews.

Your arguments are with him, instead of with me, if you cannot accept the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

All of your questions are answered in the Book of Hebrews.


Try reading the passage below if you are still confused.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


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I have been asking you to be patient and gently teach me how you see the fiulfilment. As you refuse to answer my question honestly and just keep throwing me at Hebrews which says nothing about all Israel knowing the Lord and having Gods law written in their heart, I assume you r snake dance is to avoid honest discussion.

ONe last chance for you to take me through Hebrews and point out which part of which verses you posted fulfills the terms of teh New Covenant as written in Jer. 31:31-34:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


YOu know what I have been asking over the path of three threads now. YOur absolute refusal to simply go-" here is the part of Jeremiah, and here is where Hebrews shows it fulfilled" Says way too much about you than I wanted to have said.

 

[nolidad]

Present tense in prophecy simply means that its fulfillment is assured.

None of your scriptures say anyone will receive immortality then. No one has yet received it. The Bible tells us when it will be given; Revelation 20:11-15 - NOT before.

The general belief of a change of body for the faithful when Jesus Returns, is wrong and is never said to happen then.
Only the Trib martyrs will be resurrected and they become mortal people again, just as Lazarus did.

This issue is not critical for us, maybe it a harmless belief that we will be changed when Jesus Returns. But wishful thinking is a childs game, we are adults and should believe the Biblical truths.

So the people in heaven in REv. 19 are mortals to you.

Present tense in Greek in all types of literature means a continual action! YOu are looking for the aorist and that is why you look silly promoting these silly concepts.

If only you did biblical truths concerning the church being glorified and when people are given immortality. but you have drank the Kool Aid from whoever your teachers are (and please don't blame God).

YOU said to be absent from teh body is to be present with th eLord means souls sleep and it will seem like a day.

That is not the Bible, That is the Word of Keras who added to the bible.