Concerning the Return of Jesus

keras

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Do you agree that all the seals in Revelation are caused by Jesus? I'm pretty sure you don't.
They are all allowed by Jesus, NOT caused by. The wars, famines, plagues and the deaths of the martyrs.
But the forthcoming Sixth Seal will be instigated by Him; a massive explosion on the suns surface that will literally fulfil all the graphic descriptions of His terrible Day of fiery wrath.
The real point of all of this is that seals 1 to 6 must happen before the tribulation period starts in order to catch everyone off-guard during relatively normal times. Plus there's enough time to recover from each seal. Seal 6 is the final straw that ends normalcy. Seal 7 would start the tribulation period.
Seals 1-5 are open now. Since Jesus Ascended.
Seal 6 will change the world and commence all the end time events.
Seal 7 is a time gap of 'about' 20 years. The time needed from then until the Return.

The Great Trib starts when the 'beast' takes world control. Revelation 13:5-8, and ends with the 7th Bowl at Armageddon. Rev 16:17
The 6th seal is not during the trib, it is after the trib. Matthew 24:29 already proves that.
This is error.
At the 6th Seal, the sun will be darkened and the moon blood red.
At the Return, the sun and the moon will be darkened.
Um, Covid is the sixth seal, the world changer. Obviously. It's being felt worldwide.
Covid 19 is just another manifestation of the Fourth Seal, a plague as we have had before and continue to experience.
 
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Timtofly

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The 6th seal is not during the trib, it is after the trib. Matthew 24:29 already proves that.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


What a lot of ppl seem to miss, there is a period of time after the trib, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. That happens during the 6th seal, and that verse 29 tells us this happens immediately after the trib. In verse 30 is the 2nd coming. That coming can't be during the trib if verse 29 is already telling us that when the trib is finished, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, immediately following the trib.

IMO, immediately after the trib this leads to the day of the Lord and the vials of wrath. Notice something per the following.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Notice in the text where this is positioned. It is positioned bewtween the 6th and 7th vial. That is a strange place to put that at if the idea is that He comes before any of the vials of wrath are ever unleashed. This verse indicates He comes as a thief. How many times should we assume He comes as a thief? Just one time, or more than one time? If a Pretrib rapture is true, and that He comes as a thief during that event, and that He then also comes as a thief here as well, that doesn't equal coming only one time as a thief, that equals coming multiple times as a thief.
It does not say after any particular tribulation. It just says the tribulation of those days. The days of the 4 seals. This is prior to Satan's 42 months. God and Christ are coming physically to earth and gather the harvest. The church leaves first, then the sheep, and then the wheat. Only after the final harvest will Satan get 42 months. Then the battle of Armageddon. If you are alive at the 6th Seal, you missed the whole point of coming as a thief. That moment happened before the Trumpets. Notice the question they ask in the 6th Seal: "who can stand?"
 
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Justaman0000

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In the book of Enoch, he gives a prophecy concerning 10 weeks. It's clear that these weeks are actually just period's of time. At the end of the 6th week and the beginning of the 7th, the messiah return again. If these weeks were about 1000 year periods, which it appears to be, then we are near the end of the 6th week. I just thought i'd throw this in here.
 
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Timtofly

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In the book of Enoch, he gives a prophecy concerning 10 weeks. It's clear that these weeks are actually just period's of time. At the end of the 6th week and the beginning of the 7th, the messiah return again. If these weeks were about 1000 year periods, which it appears to be, then we are near the end of the 6th week. I just thought i'd throw this in here.
Actually the end of the 7th, out of 8. Genesis 2 begins with the first Lord's Day time period.
 
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Justaman0000

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Actually the end of the 7th, out of 8. Genesis 2 begins with the first Lord's Day time period.

Yeah, you're right, my bad. I jad to go back and double check. Thanks.

8 And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded, And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom. And in it a man shall ascend; And at its close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire, And the whole race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.

9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise, And many shall be its deeds, And all its deeds shall be apostate.

10 And at its close shall be elected The elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness, To receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation
 
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mlepfitjw

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Know man knows the hour or day, of their death...

In turn know man knows the hour or day, they finally decide to choose to find out about God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then bam! He returns with-in you right now today in life.

Or Bam! You die and you are raptured up.
 
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nolidad

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?

Don't you think those two things are a bit odd given that Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation period when we expect him, and life will definitely not be normal? Below are my thoughts on this issue.

Summary
References to the return of Jesus do not refer to the day he returns, for the most part. They refer to events preceding his day of return. In particular, events preceding the tribulation when life is normal. A series of sudden events will catch you off-guard and harm or kill you. Examples could include 9/11 and/or COVID-19.

It's rather difficult to be ready for things like 9/11 and COVID-19 on an individual level. However, the idea is that much worse is coming prior to the tribulation period. So get ready for major calamities right now.

Detail
Matthew 24: No One Knows the Day or Hour


Well, there's a big problem with the whole nobody knows the day or hour thing. The arrival of the Antichrist gives us a 7yr warning that Jesus is coming. And Revelation 13:5 gives us a warning 42 months out that Jesus is coming. That appears to be referring to when the Antichrist receives a fatal wound and is then healed. That kinda suggests that no real Christian is going to be surprised or caught off-guard when Jesus shows up.

If a real Christian will already be expecting the arrival of Jesus, then why all the harping to be "ready?" Plus, we don't even know what it means to be ready.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Note how life is relatively normal right before the flood comes. Apparently, that's how it will be when Jesus arrives. Except it won't. Does anyone really think life will be anything approaching normal at the end of the tribulation period? Most of the planet will be wiped out, and Jesus is forced to return before everyone is wiped out. But we're supposed to believe that life is normal the day Jesus arrives. I don't think so.

Is life going to be relatively normal at any time during the tribulation period? I have my doubts about that.

So, the arrival of Jesus will catch us off-guard when life is relatively normal. That strongly suggests that the arrival of Jesus really means events preceding his actual return, not his actual day of return. Given that life is normal that points to a time before the start of the tribulation, like right now.

Conclusion
All the harping about the return of Jesus is a warning to Christians to be ready for the calamities that will precede his return. In particular, expect the unexpected or things that most people ignore. You won't expect them because the tribulation period hasn't started yet.


YOu are mixing the descent of Jesus into our atmosphere to snatch the church off the earth with His actual 2nd coming to earth!

The rapture could happen any time, the 2nd coming 7 years afdter Israel signs some from of covenant with the antichrist.

When Jesus does return to earth, life will not be normal! Teh seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have happened.

Most of the earth is devastated, over 1/2 the population killed- it will not be life as normal.
 
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Douggg

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YOu are mixing the descent of Jesus into our atmosphere to snatch the church off the earth with His actual 2nd coming to earth!

The rapture could happen any time, the 2nd coming 7 years afdter Israel signs some from of covenant with the antichrist.

When Jesus does return to earth, life will not be normal! Teh seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have happened.

Most of the earth is devastated, over 1/2 the population killed- it will not be life as normal.
When we see the end times events begin to happen - look up our redemption draws near, i.e. the rapture.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Dear Spiritual Jew,
Your understanding of scripture and your knowledge of the love and power of Jesus Christ is incorrect.

The Father sent Christ to save the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

In God's eyes, if Christ were to fail, it would be a sin which is not possible.

Also, you do not seem to understand God's judgment. It is not like mankind's judgment.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Christ will judge all mankind because it is necessary for our salvation. His judgment is for the loving purpose of saving us and teaching us His righteousness. It destroys our spiritual impurities that our Old Man taught us. Once His judgment is complete, all that is left is the New Man in Christ.

Christ's judgment started in this current age upon His Elect - His First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are the only ones who Christ is saving in this present age. All others will be judged and saved in the final age.

Do you understand the spiritual language of Christ? He only teaches us in this language.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

If you take scripture literally, you will NEVER understand the teachings of Christ. His words are "spirit" which carry a spiritual meaning. Here is a very easy example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword).

So how can one understand and believe this spiritual language of Christ? There is only one way. He must heal our spiritual blindness and He does that when He comes to an Elect believer the second time. It is the time of the Latter Rain. Without that second visitation, all mankind (which includes all Called Out believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit) will remain spiritually blind.

I'll explain this in more detail below:

As you are probably aware, Christ is the Word of God. A witness of Him has been given to us through scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God – Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Both Old & New Testaments are a witness of Him as recorded by the prophets/saints.

For most, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, many things He said and did are spiritual messages to His Elect.

Here is where Christ teaches us about the healing of our spiritual blindness:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

Now back to judgment. "Fire" is a spiritual term that Christ uses to represent His judgment. There is no literal place of fire where people are punished as you believe. Christ's fire purifies and teaches those being judged His righteousness.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire


Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mankind is saved through the fire, not destroyed. Our impurities are burned up and our Old Man (carnal nature) is destroyed. After this process has fully run its course, we will be like Christ.

Here are some very clear verses that teach exactly who will be saved:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby)

Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All who are "in Adam" (that is all mankind) is the same "all" who will be made alive "in Christ". Who can that possibly leave out?

So why do you believe that Christ is going to fail to save the world? It certainly can't be because mankind's "will" is too powerful for Christ to overcome:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If you do not have enough faith to believe the words of Christ, I recommend praying for more. Christ is the giver of good gifts and faith is a very good gift.

Joe
You have been deceived by this false universal salvation teaching. You make it so that people can behave however they want and believe whatever they want and God will still grant them eternal life, anyway. That is exactly what Satan would like people to believe. That is a doctrine of devils.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of the urgency to repent and put one's faith in Christ before it is too late. Scripture says that now or today is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2), but your false doctrine says that tomorrow is the day of salvation and your doctrine gives no urgency at all for people to repent and put their faith in Christ.

You did nothing here to show that anyone can be saved after being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day. God will not force anyone to believe in His Son. All must make the choice to come to Him willingly or else they will face eternal punishment.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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There is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church ever mentioned in the Bible.

Those who promote it are false teachers and will incur Judgment.
With the understanding that the rapture refers to what Paul described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 which is when we will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air", it's true that it doesn't mention anything about being brought to heaven at that point. Those who believe in a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture believe that.

However, to say that people who believe that will "incur Judgment" is going too far. What are you basing that on and what does that mean exactly? You're talking about Christians here who believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead. Why would they "incur Judgment" just for misinterpreting end times prophecies?
 
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nolidad

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There is no 'rapture to heaven' of the Church ever mentioned in the Bible.

Those who promote it are false teachers and will incur Judgment.

And your lying against your brethren in Christ will cause a harsh blowback from God if you won't repent.

YOu want to disagree? Fine! Let us disagree, discuss, debate heatedly even! but to call your brethren false teachers is putting you on dangerous ground!

Especially when teh Bible shows the churches destiny is heaven.

John 14, REv. 20.

Casreful Keras.
 
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You have been deceived by this false universal salvation teaching. You make it so that people can behave however they want and believe whatever they want and God will still grant them eternal life, anyway. That is exactly what Satan would like people to believe. That is a doctrine of devils.

Scripture repeatedly speaks of the urgency to repent and put one's faith in Christ before it is too late. Scripture says that now or today is the day of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2), but your false doctrine says that tomorrow is the day of salvation and your doctrine gives no urgency at all for people to repent and put their faith in Christ.

You did nothing here to show that anyone can be saved after being cast into the lake of fire on judgment day. God will not force anyone to believe in His Son. All must make the choice to come to Him willingly or else they will face eternal punishment.


Knowing the biblical truth that Jesus did die for the sins of the world is not believing in universal salvation! Not one soul will go to hell because they are a sinner.

Those who go to the Lake of Fire do so because they have rejected the Savior!
 
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DavidPT

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It does not say after any particular tribulation. It just says the tribulation of those days.

After Matthew 24:29 comes verse 30, the 2nd coming. So where is there room for another tribulation after verse 29 but before verse 30?
 
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keras

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However, to say that people who believe that will "incur Judgment" is going too far. What are you basing that on and what does that mean exactly? You're talking about Christians here who believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead. Why would they "incur Judgment" just for misinterpreting end times prophecies?
James 3:1 My friends, not many of you should become teachers, because you may be certain that we who teach will ourselves face a more severe judgement.
Many scriptures warn against leading the flock astray.
Especially when teh Bible shows the churches destiny is heaven.
This unsupported comment is totally incorrect. Unless you provide scriptural proof, pleas retract it.

I have a page full of verses that say our destiny is the holy Land.


 
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I have a page full of verses that say our destiny is the holy Land.

If you are correct, why did Christ correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem is the place to worship?


Joh 4:19 The woman said to Him, "Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."
Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."


Our country is found below.

Heb 11:15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

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