Concerning the Return of Jesus

Matt5

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?

Don't you think those two things are a bit odd given that Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation period when we expect him, and life will definitely not be normal? Below are my thoughts on this issue.

Summary
References to the return of Jesus do not refer to the day he returns, for the most part. They refer to events preceding his day of return. In particular, events preceding the tribulation when life is normal. A series of sudden events will catch you off-guard and harm or kill you. Examples could include 9/11 and/or COVID-19.

It's rather difficult to be ready for things like 9/11 and COVID-19 on an individual level. However, the idea is that much worse is coming prior to the tribulation period. So get ready for major calamities right now.

Detail
Matthew 24: No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Well, there's a big problem with the whole nobody knows the day or hour thing. The arrival of the Antichrist gives us a 7yr warning that Jesus is coming. And Revelation 13:5 gives us a warning 42 months out that Jesus is coming. That appears to be referring to when the Antichrist receives a fatal wound and is then healed. That kinda suggests that no real Christian is going to be surprised or caught off-guard when Jesus shows up.

If a real Christian will already be expecting the arrival of Jesus, then why all the harping to be "ready?" Plus, we don't even know what it means to be ready.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Note how life is relatively normal right before the flood comes. Apparently, that's how it will be when Jesus arrives. Except it won't. Does anyone really think life will be anything approaching normal at the end of the tribulation period? Most of the planet will be wiped out, and Jesus is forced to return before everyone is wiped out. But we're supposed to believe that life is normal the day Jesus arrives. I don't think so.

Is life going to be relatively normal at any time during the tribulation period? I have my doubts about that.

So, the arrival of Jesus will catch us off-guard when life is relatively normal. That strongly suggests that the arrival of Jesus really means events preceding his actual return, not his actual day of return. Given that life is normal that points to a time before the start of the tribulation, like right now.

Conclusion
All the harping about the return of Jesus is a warning to Christians to be ready for the calamities that will precede his return. In particular, expect the unexpected or things that most people ignore. You won't expect them because the tribulation period hasn't started yet.
 
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Jeshu

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My dear friends Jesus' coming is Spiritual first of all, He is a spiritual King, The King of the heart. If we follow His command and love God and neighbour then He will come and make His dwelling with us, He and His Father as well and His Spirit as well. John 14.

The whole Trinity in our heart will have ever prophecy come true in your life spiritually. That is what really matters. To have Jesus revealed in your life. He will divide the sheep from the goats in your heart don't ever worry about that.

Heaven is a spiritual place so seeing Jesus on the clouds of heaven will be a spiritual event much more so than a literal one.

Peace.
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew 24 about, "know one knows" is about the rapture, Jesus return comes in two parts. The rapture is the first part and the actual appearance of The Messiah comes at the end of the tribulation.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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Matt5

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Matthew 24 about, "know one knows" is about the rapture, Jesus return comes in two parts. The rapture is the first part and the actual appearance of The Messiah comes at the end of the tribulation.

How does one get ready for the rapture?

Some Bible verses point out that failure to be ready means you get thrown into outer darkness - killed. How does that work with the rapture?
 
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FaithWillDo

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?

Don't you think those two things are a bit odd given that Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation period when we expect him, and life will definitely not be normal? Below are my thoughts on this issue.

Summary
References to the return of Jesus do not refer to the day he returns, for the most part. They refer to events preceding his day of return. In particular, events preceding the tribulation when life is normal. A series of sudden events will catch you off-guard and harm or kill you. Examples could include 9/11 and/or COVID-19.

It's rather difficult to be ready for things like 9/11 and COVID-19 on an individual level. However, the idea is that much worse is coming prior to the tribulation period. So get ready for major calamities right now.

Detail
Matthew 24: No One Knows the Day or Hour


Well, there's a big problem with the whole nobody knows the day or hour thing. The arrival of the Antichrist gives us a 7yr warning that Jesus is coming. And Revelation 13:5 gives us a warning 42 months out that Jesus is coming. That appears to be referring to when the Antichrist receives a fatal wound and is then healed. That kinda suggests that no real Christian is going to be surprised or caught off-guard when Jesus shows up.

If a real Christian will already be expecting the arrival of Jesus, then why all the harping to be "ready?" Plus, we don't even know what it means to be ready.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Note how life is relatively normal right before the flood comes. Apparently, that's how it will be when Jesus arrives. Except it won't. Does anyone really think life will be anything approaching normal at the end of the tribulation period? Most of the planet will be wiped out, and Jesus is forced to return before everyone is wiped out. But we're supposed to believe that life is normal the day Jesus arrives. I don't think so.

Is life going to be relatively normal at any time during the tribulation period? I have my doubts about that.

So, the arrival of Jesus will catch us off-guard when life is relatively normal. That strongly suggests that the arrival of Jesus really means events preceding his actual return, not his actual day of return. Given that life is normal that points to a time before the start of the tribulation, like right now.

Conclusion
All the harping about the return of Jesus is a warning to Christians to be ready for the calamities that will precede his return. In particular, expect the unexpected or things that most people ignore. You won't expect them because the tribulation period hasn't started yet.


Dear Matt5,
I used to teach End-time prophecy in my church many years ago. My understanding was much like everyone else. But in October 2005, everything changed for me. I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit which is the second coming of Christ. The second coming of Christ is not a visible future coming to this world as I used to believe. It is the same event that happened in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. When Christ returns, it happens "within" a chosen person and it is not visible to the world. When He comes, He brings death and destruction to our Old Man. Since the time of Paul's conversion, Christ only comes as a thief in the night. In our Called, fallen away condition, we are not expecting Him. We are dwelling in "peace and safety" in our church, fully deceived by Satan who is masquerading as an angel of light (Christ). Satan feeds us a diet of "stones" (works of the Law) and leavened bread (false truth that pleases our carnal natures). In this condition, we are asleep at "midnight" (Parable of the 10 Virgins). We have become a "man of sin" and have been made into a worse creature that before we received the Early Rain of the Spirit (Matt 12:43-45). When Christ comes a second time to a believer, there is thunder, earthquakes and destruction of the Old Man. The sun and the moon are darkened (natural light) and we begin receiving only the light from Jesus Christ. Our spiritual blindness is healed and the Man of Sin whom we have become is revealed to us.

This event happen to me and my wife on Oct. 8th, 2005 and it turned our world upside down. At that time, the true meaning of the scriptures opened up to us. We were finding great treasure. I soon realized that the ALL End-time prophecy teachings that I believed were totally untrue. Matthew 24 is teaching on the pathway to conversion (Latter Rain) that Christ takes His Elect along. When a person sees the "abomination of desolation" (who we have become, Man of Sin), the Latter Rain has begun falling on them. It is an earth shaking event that comes out of no where. One is taken (the Old Man), and one is left (New Man in Christ). Christ said all the events He just described in Matt 24 would be fulfilled before the generation that He was speaking to would pass away and they were. They have been happening over and over again down through this present age to all of Christ's chosen Elect since that time.

In my profile, I posted my conversion testimony that I wrote shortly after receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit back in 2005. If you are hearing the Lord call to "come out of her my people", I would be willing to share more with you.
Joe
 
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keras

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?
The prophesies about Jesus coming as a thief, are for His terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide punishment of His enemies. Isaiah 66:15-17
The glorious return, seen by all; will not be unexpected by those who have a Bible, as it will be exactly 1260 days after the 'beast' desecrates the Temple. Revelation 12:6-14 and 1290 days until the Atonement, after the Return, and 1335 days, that is 75 days after the Return; for the re-dedication of the Temple. Daniel 12:11-12

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11
Triggered by an attack on Israel by the Islamic peoples. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ.
Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
 
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d taylor

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How does one get ready for the rapture?

Some Bible verses point out that failure to be ready means you get thrown into outer darkness - killed. How does that work with the rapture?

If a person has believed in The Messiah for Gods free gift of Eternal Life, then they are ready. They may not be living a perfect life but regardless, they will be taken up to meet The Messiah in the air/clouds.

The outer darkness is not connected to the rapture.
A good book on the outer darkness is this little book here.
What Is the Outer Darkness?
By Zane Hodges/Bob Wilkin

https://www.amazon.com/What-Outer-Darkness-Zane-Hodges-ebook/dp/B01LOGBR5U
 
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Matt5

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The prophesies about Jesus coming as a thief, are for His terrible Day of fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide punishment of His enemies. Isaiah 66:15-17
The glorious return, seen by all; will not be unexpected by those who have a Bible, as it will be exactly 1260 days after the 'beast' desecrates the Temple. Revelation 12:6-14 and 1290 days until the Atonement, after the Return, and 1335 days, that is 75 days after the Return; for the re-dedication of the Temple. Daniel 12:11-12

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ But the Lord is not seen: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11
Triggered by an attack on Israel by the Islamic peoples. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ.
Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

If the sixth seal is during the tribulation period, then doesn't that violate the - life is normal - requirement? If he comes twice, and we know the one at the end is not during normal times, then the other must be. At some point Jesus must come in some form (or send some form of punishment) during a period when life is relatively normal.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Who is "her," in this scripture? Wasn't the antichrist a man?

Dear HopeInJesusOnly,

Here is the verse:
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The "her" in this verse is Mystery Babylon the Great. Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of our carnal nature. Mystery Babylon the Great is "within" us. She manifests herself in the world as "religion" which is practiced in all "Called Out" believers who make up the "church". Religion is man's attempt to make one's self acceptable to God. Adam tried it with a apron of fig leaves. Religion, like the Law, attempts to clean the "outside of the cup" where as true Christianity through Jesus Christ cleans the "inside of the cup" (salvation). Christ is the Savior and He does all the work. We can do nothing. Because of our flawed spiritual makeup from birth, Christ must give us "gifts" to cause us to repent. Just as Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road without Paul asking for Christ to come (this is the Early Rain of the Spirit), so must Christ come to each of us. He prepares our hearts and give us the answer of our tongue. It seems to us that our answer (like Paul's) came from our supposed free will but it is simply not true. Scripture says that no one seeks after God. This necessitates that Christ must to us first. At some point, He will come to every person. To the Elect (the First Fruits) now in this age and to all others in the last age.

When Christ comes to us to give us the Early Rain, that event starts us on the pathway that all mankind must/will travel in order to be saved. It is a spiritual pathway that is 100% the work of Christ. For that reason, the salvation of all mankind is certain.

If a Called Out believer has been chosen by Christ to be saved in this age, Christ will come a second time to them before they die. This event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that we come out from Mystery Babylon the Great (come out from religion) and we see the smoke of her burning. This happens very quickly upon Christ's second coming to us (Latter Rain). That is the point of salvation where we are "born again".

As for the "antichrist" - the antichrist is a spirit sent by Satan to deceive the church. It came upon the church at the end of the apostles ministries and has been controlling the church ever since. It is because of this spirit that we become a "worse creature" than before we were called out by Christ. In the final stage of Satan's deception, we become what Paul's calls a "Man of Sin". The Man of Sin is destroyed when Christ comes to give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
Joe
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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Dear HopeInJesusOnly,

Here is the verse:
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The "her" in this verse is Mystery Babylon the Great. Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of our carnal nature. Mystery Babylon the Great is "within" us. She manifests herself in the world as "religion" which is practiced in all "Called Out" believers who make up the "church". Religion is man's attempt to make one's self acceptable to God. Adam tried it with a apron of fig leaves. Religion, like the Law, attempts to clean the "outside of the cup" where as true Christianity through Jesus Christ cleans the "inside of the cup" (salvation). Christ is the Savior and He does all the work. We can do nothing. Because of our flawed spiritual makeup from birth, Christ must give us "gifts" to cause us to repent. Just as Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road without Paul asking for Christ to come (this is the Early Rain of the Spirit), so must Christ come to each of us. He prepares our hearts and give us the answer of our tongue. It seems to us that our answer (like Paul's) came from our supposed free will but it is simply not true. Scripture says that no one seeks after God. This necessitates that Christ must to us first. At some point, He will come to every person. To the Elect (the First Fruits) now in this age and to all others in the last age.

When Christ comes to us to give us the Early Rain, that event starts us on the pathway that all mankind must/will travel in order to be saved. It is a spiritual pathway that is 100% the work of Christ. For that reason, the salvation of all mankind is certain.

If a Called Out believer has been chosen by Christ to be saved in this age, Christ will come a second time to them before they die. This event is the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that we come out from Mystery Babylon the Great (come out from religion) and we see the smoke of her burning. This happens very quickly upon Christ's second coming to us (Latter Rain). That is the point of salvation where we are "born again".

As for the "antichrist" - the antichrist is a spirit sent by Satan to deceive the church. It came upon the church at the end of the apostles ministries and has been controlling the church ever since. It is because of this spirit that we become a "worse creature" than before we were called out by Christ. In the final stage of Satan's deception, we become what Paul's calls a "Man of Sin". The Man of Sin is destroyed when Christ comes to give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
Joe

Thanks for the response. You're very fortunate.

I think I learned the opposite --- that God cast me out, sadly.
 
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FaithWillDo

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Thanks for the response. You're very fortunate.

I think I learned the opposite --- that God cast me out, sadly.


Dear HopeInJesusOnly,

In this age, Christ only saves the one sheep who is lost from the other 99 sheep.

Matt 18:11-14 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Being a lost sheep may be a blessing.

But if you have truly lost your hope, put your faith in this verse:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus is the Savior. That is His work that the Father gave Him and He will not fail for anyone. Contrary to what is commonly taught, Christ is not working to save everyone at this time. He is only saving those who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They are few in number. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. Just as Paul had no say in the matter of His salvation, neither does anyone else who has been chosen. It is Christ's work "within" us and He does it without our permission. After His work is complete within us, we will be like Christ. We cannot change ourselves. As for those not chosen to be saved in this age, Christ will save them in the next and final age. This group is large and is shown here:

Rev 7: 9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We have no ability to save ourselves and are dependent on Christ to save us...even the timing of it.

Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, it is not a matter of "if" we will be saved, it is only a matter of when. Even these same Pharisees in the verse above who helped send Christ to the cross will be saved in the end. Christ loves us all and is not a respecter of person. Everyone will follow the same pathway to salvation. The First Fruits complete that pathway in this age, all others will complete the pathway in the final age. Have faith and wait on the Lord to do His work.

If the Lord leads you to pray, then ask for His blessings to come now.

Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

And don't just ask one time. Pray for it often:

Luke 11:5-8 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

When the Lord was ready to bless me with His truth and salvation, He caused me to pray for it. I have my conversion testimony in my personal profile.

Regardless of the Lord's timing, His work in you will be testified in "due time".
Joe


 
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jeffweedaman

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?

Don't you think those two things are a bit odd given that Jesus will return at the end of the tribulation period when we expect him, and life will definitely not be normal? Below are my thoughts on this issue.

Summary
References to the return of Jesus do not refer to the day he returns, for the most part. They refer to events preceding his day of return. In particular, events preceding the tribulation when life is normal. A series of sudden events will catch you off-guard and harm or kill you. Examples could include 9/11 and/or COVID-19.

It's rather difficult to be ready for things like 9/11 and COVID-19 on an individual level. However, the idea is that much worse is coming prior to the tribulation period. So get ready for major calamities right now.

Detail
Matthew 24: No One Knows the Day or Hour


Well, there's a big problem with the whole nobody knows the day or hour thing. The arrival of the Antichrist gives us a 7yr warning that Jesus is coming. And Revelation 13:5 gives us a warning 42 months out that Jesus is coming. That appears to be referring to when the Antichrist receives a fatal wound and is then healed. That kinda suggests that no real Christian is going to be surprised or caught off-guard when Jesus shows up.

If a real Christian will already be expecting the arrival of Jesus, then why all the harping to be "ready?" Plus, we don't even know what it means to be ready.

Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

Note how life is relatively normal right before the flood comes. Apparently, that's how it will be when Jesus arrives. Except it won't. Does anyone really think life will be anything approaching normal at the end of the tribulation period? Most of the planet will be wiped out, and Jesus is forced to return before everyone is wiped out. But we're supposed to believe that life is normal the day Jesus arrives. I don't think so.

Is life going to be relatively normal at any time during the tribulation period? I have my doubts about that.

So, the arrival of Jesus will catch us off-guard when life is relatively normal. That strongly suggests that the arrival of Jesus really means events preceding his actual return, not his actual day of return. Given that life is normal that points to a time before the start of the tribulation, like right now.

Conclusion
All the harping about the return of Jesus is a warning to Christians to be ready for the calamities that will precede his return. In particular, expect the unexpected or things that most people ignore. You won't expect them because the tribulation period hasn't started yet.


Jesus tells us that he will come after the Greatest of Great Tribulations that were to befall the world until he comes. No flesh would survive if he didnt come as promised.
 
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keras

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If the sixth seal is during the tribulation period, then doesn't that violate the - life is normal - requirement? If he comes twice, and we know the one at the end is not during normal times, then the other must be. At some point Jesus must come in some form (or send some form of punishment) during a period when life is relatively normal.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event. Proved by Isaiah 61:1-2, where Jesus stopped His Fulfillment of that prophecy before; and a Day of the Lord's vengeance.

It will be the Sixth Seal world changer that will come unexpectedly, while the world is just going along as normal: as in the days of Noah.
The glorious Return, with the battle of Armageddon will happen in a time of great turmoil.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Dear HopeInJesusOnly,

In this age, Christ only saves the one sheep who is lost from the other 99 sheep.

Matt 18:11-14 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Being a lost sheep may be a blessing.

But if you have truly lost your hope, put your faith in this verse:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Jesus is the Savior. That is His work that the Father gave Him and He will not fail for anyone. Contrary to what is commonly taught, Christ is not working to save everyone at this time. He is only saving those who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They are few in number. They are the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. Just as Paul had no say in the matter of His salvation, neither does anyone else who has been chosen. It is Christ's work "within" us and He does it without our permission. After His work is complete within us, we will be like Christ. We cannot change ourselves. As for those not chosen to be saved in this age, Christ will save them in the next and final age. This group is large and is shown here:

Rev 7: 9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

We have no ability to save ourselves and are dependent on Christ to save us...even the timing of it.

Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

With Christ, it is not a matter of "if" we will be saved, it is only a matter of when. Even these same Pharisees in the verse above who helped send Christ to the cross will be saved in the end. Christ loves us all and is not a respecter of person. Everyone will follow the same pathway to salvation. The First Fruits complete that pathway in this age, all others will complete the pathway in the final age. Have faith and wait on the Lord to do His work.

If the Lord leads you to pray, then ask for His blessings to come now.

Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

And don't just ask one time. Pray for it often:

Luke 11:5-8 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

When the Lord was ready to bless me with His truth and salvation, He caused me to pray for it. I have my conversion testimony in my personal profile.

Regardless of the Lord's timing, His work in you will be testified in "due time".
Joe

Scripture does not teach universal salvation. You are bringing a lot of false teaching into this thread.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nowhere does scripture teach that once people are cast into the lake of fire that they can ever be saved after that. The idea that Christ will save people like the Pharisees you mentioned who indicated that they rejected Him and didn't want any part of Him is utterly ridiculous.
 
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Matt5

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The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event. Proved by Isaiah 61:1-2, where Jesus stopped His Fulfillment of that prophecy before; and a Day of the Lord's vengeance.

It will be the Sixth Seal world changer that will come unexpectedly, while the world is just going along as normal: as in the days of Noah.
The glorious Return, with the battle of Armageddon will happen in a time of great turmoil.

I mostly agree with you but most likely for different reasons.

Do you agree that all the seals in Revelation are caused by Jesus? I'm pretty sure you don't.

Rev 5:2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?”

The answer is Jesus. It is Jesus who unleashes all the seals on the world. It's right there in Revelation 5.

6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

If Jesus causes all the seals in Revelation, then what is the difference between one seal and the next? The types pain inflicted upon the world differ but conceptually they are all negative events caused by Jesus. There is no rule that says a day of the lord event must have a certain description. Any serious negative event caused by Jesus should qualify.

The real point of all of this is that seals 1 to 6 must happen before the tribulation period starts in order to catch everyone off-guard during relatively normal times. Plus there's enough time to recover from each seal. Seal 6 is the final straw that ends normalcy. Seal 7 would start the tribulation period.

If the seals open during the tribulation then there is no time to recover between seals. Nobody will be caught off-guard. The times will not be normal.
 
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HopeInJesusOnly

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The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster is the next prophesied event. Proved by Isaiah 61:1-2, where Jesus stopped His Fulfillment of that prophecy before; and a Day of the Lord's vengeance.

It will be the Sixth Seal world changer that will come unexpectedly, while the world is just going along as normal: as in the days of Noah.
The glorious Return, with the battle of Armageddon will happen in a time of great turmoil.

Um, Covid is the sixth seal, the world changer. Obviously. It's being felt worldwide.
 
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Scripture does not teach universal salvation. You are bringing a lot of false teaching into this thread.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nowhere does scripture teach that once people are cast into the lake of fire that they can ever be saved after that. The idea that Christ will save people like the Pharisees you mentioned who indicated that they rejected Him and didn't want any part of Him is utterly ridiculous.


Dear Spiritual Jew,
Your understanding of scripture and your knowledge of the love and power of Jesus Christ is incorrect.

The Father sent Christ to save the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

In God's eyes, if Christ were to fail, it would be a sin which is not possible.

Also, you do not seem to understand God's judgment. It is not like mankind's judgment.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Christ will judge all mankind because it is necessary for our salvation. His judgment is for the loving purpose of saving us and teaching us His righteousness. It destroys our spiritual impurities that our Old Man taught us. Once His judgment is complete, all that is left is the New Man in Christ.

Christ's judgment started in this current age upon His Elect - His First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are the only ones who Christ is saving in this present age. All others will be judged and saved in the final age.

Do you understand the spiritual language of Christ? He only teaches us in this language.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

If you take scripture literally, you will NEVER understand the teachings of Christ. His words are "spirit" which carry a spiritual meaning. Here is a very easy example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword).

So how can one understand and believe this spiritual language of Christ? There is only one way. He must heal our spiritual blindness and He does that when He comes to an Elect believer the second time. It is the time of the Latter Rain. Without that second visitation, all mankind (which includes all Called Out believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit) will remain spiritually blind.

I'll explain this in more detail below:

As you are probably aware, Christ is the Word of God. A witness of Him has been given to us through scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God – Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Both Old & New Testaments are a witness of Him as recorded by the prophets/saints.

For most, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, many things He said and did are spiritual messages to His Elect.

Here is where Christ teaches us about the healing of our spiritual blindness:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

Now back to judgment. "Fire" is a spiritual term that Christ uses to represent His judgment. There is no literal place of fire where people are punished as you believe. Christ's fire purifies and teaches those being judged His righteousness.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire


Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mankind is saved through the fire, not destroyed. Our impurities are burned up and our Old Man (carnal nature) is destroyed. After this process has fully run its course, we will be like Christ.

Here are some very clear verses that teach exactly who will be saved:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. (Darby)

Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All who are "in Adam" (that is all mankind) is the same "all" who will be made alive "in Christ". Who can that possibly leave out?

So why do you believe that Christ is going to fail to save the world? It certainly can't be because mankind's "will" is too powerful for Christ to overcome:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If you do not have enough faith to believe the words of Christ, I recommend praying for more. Christ is the giver of good gifts and faith is a very good gift.

Joe
 
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If the sixth seal is during the tribulation period, then doesn't that violate the - life is normal - requirement? If he comes twice, and we know the one at the end is not during normal times, then the other must be. At some point Jesus must come in some form (or send some form of punishment) during a period when life is relatively normal.


The 6th seal is not during the trib, it is after the trib. Matthew 24:29 already proves that.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


What a lot of ppl seem to miss, there is a period of time after the trib, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. That happens during the 6th seal, and that verse 29 tells us this happens immediately after the trib. In verse 30 is the 2nd coming. That coming can't be during the trib if verse 29 is already telling us that when the trib is finished, shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, immediately following the trib.

IMO, immediately after the trib this leads to the day of the Lord and the vials of wrath. Notice something per the following.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Notice in the text where this is positioned. It is positioned bewtween the 6th and 7th vial. That is a strange place to put that at if the idea is that He comes before any of the vials of wrath are ever unleashed. This verse indicates He comes as a thief. How many times should we assume He comes as a thief? Just one time, or more than one time? If a Pretrib rapture is true, and that He comes as a thief during that event, and that He then also comes as a thief here as well, that doesn't equal coming only one time as a thief, that equals coming multiple times as a thief.
 
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