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Conception of Hell

What is your conception of Hell?

  • Traditional (fire & brimstone)

  • Miltonian

  • Other

  • Undecided/Don't believe in Hell


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JesusFreak78

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Hell is very difficult thing for me to believe in. If i had to say what happens to those whom god does not consider worthy of heaven. I would say they would cease to exist which in turn would completely detach them from god and they would enter the "Eternal Fire" or Eternal Destruction as fire destroys. Doesn’t it seem a wrong to condemn those who have chosen the wrong path to an eternal suffering? I believe our fate is either with god or with the organisms he created. However i may be wrong so i always keep an open mind!

It's not up to us to decide how it's supposed to be based on our personal believes. God said how it is and we must accept that as truth. Everything God does is just and fair, even when it doesn't seem just and fair to man.
 
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cubinity

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I believe in an everlasting torment for unsaved because that's what the bible teaches. I can't just take my opinion and apply it as I want to. The bible has the final authority and I must yield my opinion to make it fit God's opinion.

You say God is a heartless monster to send people to hell and you talk about a loving God will just wipe out people when they die. If justice was done and we all got as we deserved we would all go to hell without any exceptions, but in His love and mercy God has chosen to save some for His glory.

If John's Revelation is the only Biblical source you can use to argue the crystal clarity of Scripture on this subject, then you have a serious hole in your argument. While Revelation is canonized, and therefore not untrue, it is so heavily encoded in Apocalypticism that no reader has ever been able to decode it in a way that one can call "crystal clear."

All of the other passages you've presented all teach some other truth not related to hell and/or do not even say the things you've attributed to them. The Bible is NOT crystal clear on this subject. Only someone who really wants to believe it is would even present such an argument. Who among us is applying their personal opinion?

So, I'll repeat my earlier argument in different words: If only one Biblical source is sufficient for arguing that hell for unbelievers is crystal clear (such as Revelation), then I challenge you to change that one source to, say, the parable in Matthew 25:31-46, and explain how this is an exact depiction of what you actually believe. I think you will find it dramatically differs from your perspective on this issue.
 
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nChrist

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Hell is very difficult thing for me to believe in. If i had to say what happens to those whom god does not consider worthy of heaven. I would say they would cease to exist which in turn would completely detach them from god and they would enter the "Eternal Fire" or Eternal Destruction as fire destroys. Doesn’t it seem a wrong to condemn those who have chosen the wrong path to an eternal suffering? I believe our fate is either with god or with the organisms he created. However i may be wrong so i always keep an open mind!

Did you pay any attention at all to the Holy Bible in forming your opinion? Almighty God - The Creator - really doesn't care what you think. We're really talking about basic Bible facts from God's Word - the Sole Authority on this topic.
 
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razeontherock

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I don't really know. I don't really like the idea of my Atheist friends being in torment for all eternity, doesn't make me feel good...

This argument has even been extended to mean one could not enjoy heaven.

That's complete nonsense! We are told about worship in Eternity, and it will completely consume our beings. This is very understandable as we will see Him as He is. There won't be room in our consciousness to fathom those apart from Him.
 
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razeontherock

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re: "Revelation 14:9-11 - 9 And a third angel followed them, saying in a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or in his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb."

Doesn’t say for how long.
 

re: "11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever."

Only says that smoke goes up for ever.

:doh: Torment implies consciousness. Jesus said some people would wind up with the devil and his angels. Seems to be a clear connection here.


re: "Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels."

Doesn’t say what the condition of the person will be or for how long.

d00d! Going into everlasting fire is pretty descriptive of the 'condition.' Why would He say everlasting if it was annihilation?

re: "Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."
Nothing here precludes a punishment of eternal death.

It does refute your "doesn't say for how long" argument. The second death is everlasting punishment; there's just no other way I see to harmonize the whole of Scripture consistently.
 
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cubinity

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<snip>
re: "Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

It does refute your "doesn't say for how long" argument. The second death is everlasting punishment; there's just no other way I see to harmonize the whole of Scripture consistently.

Once again, Matthew 25:46 is part of a parable in which the king decides the fate of his subject on a completely different basis than our God decides our fate. If we are going to apply Matthew 25:46 as the alternative to salvation, don't we also have to apply Matthew 25:34-40 as the basis for our salvation?

How do I justify "harmonizing the whole of Scripture consistently" when it means I have to disregard the context of the passage I'm interpreting in order to do so?
 
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JesusFreak78

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If John's Revelation is the only Biblical source you can use to argue the crystal clarity of Scripture on this subject, then you have a serious hole in your argument. While Revelation is canonized, and therefore not untrue, it is so heavily encoded in Apocalypticism that no reader has ever been able to decode it in a way that one can call "crystal clear."

All of the other passages you've presented all teach some other truth not related to hell and/or do not even say the things you've attributed to them. The Bible is NOT crystal clear on this subject. Only someone who really wants to believe it is would even present such an argument. Who among us is applying their personal opinion?

So, I'll repeat my earlier argument in different words: If only one Biblical source is sufficient for arguing that hell for unbelievers is crystal clear (such as Revelation), then I challenge you to change that one source to, say, the parable in Matthew 25:31-46, and explain how this is an exact depiction of what you actually believe. I think you will find it dramatically differs from your perspective on this issue.


If you can't clearly see what the scripture is teaching after what all the people on this thread have tried to help you with it, I can't help you. We can argue for the next decade and you will still not see it.
 
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JesusFreak78

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Once again, Matthew 25:46 is part of a parable in which the king decides the fate of his subject on a completely different basis than our God decides our fate. If we are going to apply Matthew 25:46 as the alternative to salvation, don't we also have to apply Matthew 25:34-40 as the basis for our salvation?

How do I justify "harmonizing the whole of Scripture consistently" when it means I have to disregard the context of the passage I'm interpreting in order to do so?

Matthew 25:34-40 is talking about saved people and Matthew 25:41-46 is talking about unsaved people.
 
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Timothew

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Did you pay any attention at all to the Holy Bible in forming your opinion? Almighty God - The Creator - really doesn't care what you think. We're really talking about basic Bible facts from God's Word - the Sole Authority on this topic.
This is what everybody says, "It's basic bible facts! Anyone can see that sinners roast for all eternity in the flames of hell!"

Then I ask for scripture supporting this. I still haven't seen any.
 
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JesusFreak78

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This is what everybody says, "It's basic bible facts! Anyone can see that sinners roast for all eternity in the flames of hell!"

Then I ask for scripture supporting this. I still haven't seen any.

You have seen plenty of scriptures supporting this. The matter of fact is you refuse to believe what they so plainly are saying.
 
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rstrats

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JesusFreak78,

re: "It's not up to us to decide how it's supposed to be based on our personal believes."

Just for a moment, lets talk about your personal beliefs:

Do you WANT to believe that the fate of a person who does not qualify for salvation is torture for eternity? Yes or no?

Do you believe that the supreme being has the ability to annihilate a person? Yes or no? If yes, which do you think would be more merciful - annihilation or torture for eternity?

&#12288;
 
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Timothew

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You have seen plenty of scriptures supporting this. The matter of fact is you refuse to believe what they so plainly are saying.
Here are the scriptures I posted on another thread which refute the doctrine of eternal torment.
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
________________

Anyway, you can believe what ever you want.
I believe the bible.
Tim
 
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rstrats

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razeontherock,

re: " Torment implies consciousness. Jesus said some people would wind up with the devil and his angels. Seems to be a clear connection here."

I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t see your point with regard to scripture saying that a person will be tortured for eternity. Could you elaborate?
&#12288;

re: "Going into everlasting fire is pretty descriptive of the 'condition.' "

In retrospect, I&#8217;m not sure why I used the word "condition". Maybe it will come to me in the night.
&#12288;

re: "Why would He say everlasting if it was annihilation?"

It only says that the fire is everlasting and that it is prepared for the Devil and his angels. Nothing in the verse precludes annihilation.
&#12288;

re: "The second death is everlasting punishment..."

Right; DEATH. Nothing in the verse precludes a punishment of annihilation.
&#12288;


I would ask you the same questions that I asked JesusFreak78 in my post #71.
&#12288;
 
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JesusFreak78

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JesusFreak78,

re: "It's not up to us to decide how it's supposed to be based on our personal believes."

Just for a moment, lets talk about your personal beliefs:

Do you WANT to believe that the fate of a person who does not qualify for salvation is torture for eternity? Yes or no?

Do you believe that the supreme being has the ability to annihilate a person? Yes or no? If yes, which do you think would be more merciful - annihilation or torture for eternity?

&#12288;

I believe what the bible tells me is correct. If God says unbelievers will be tormented for all eternity.

It's not about what is merciful, it's about God's truth and God's justification.
 
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cubinity

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Matthew 25:34-40 is talking about saved people and Matthew 25:41-46 is talking about unsaved people.

Yes, I know. It's not that they're are saved and unsaved I'm getting at. It's WHY they are being saved and unsaved that I've repeatedly tried to point out. Do you agree that we are saved for the EXACT SAME REASONS these parabolic people are being saved? If not, then how do you reconcile and contend that we share their EXACT SAME FATE?

My argument, which has still not been address by anyone, is that the parable does not reflect our beliefs about WHY we are saved or unsaved, yet we argue that it clearly described the conditions we face once saved or unsaved.

Can someone please address that?
 
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Timothew

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One of the GodQuestions team members, I'm sure. Did you read it?
Yes, I read it. I was disappointed that they didn't use the bible more. I read the credentials of the page leader, he has good credentials. I read some of the other articles and I was pleasantly surprised.

Hell (Hades, Gehenna) as a metaphor for death is advanced stuff, and not everyone understands it.

Tim
 
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nChrist

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If the words of Jesus Christ Himself is not enough, this thread is a waste of time.

Matthew 18:8-9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If you have a Bible, use it, and follow the references. There's much more, but I'm through wasting my time with such a basic subject. You can also use the link below for references, commentaries, dictionaries, and whatever else you might need to look it up for yourself. Pray before you begin and ask God to help you understand the material.

If you wish to view the portions of Scripture I used in more context or in a different translation, you might try the following if you don't have your own materials:

Blue Letter Bible - Home Page
 
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