Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

[Bob S]

And I by contrast - start this thread just on Col 2 - on the content of the chapter itself.

I point out that in the actual chapter of Col 2- Paul deals not with destroying scripture, nor with declaring and end to eating and drinking, nor with declaring an end to the Sabbath.

Rather Paul affirms the same condemnation of "making stuff up" as Christ does in Mark 7:6-13.



This thread stands on its own as a discussion of Col 2. The OP sets the context and subject.

It is not about attacking you it is about Bible study of Col 2.

If you have a case to make from Col 2 - feel free to do so.

in Christ,

Bob

First of all Bob no one is trying to destroy scripture. That is a complete misnomer.

If I were you I would be very careful in interpreting Col 2 the way you have. Why you should ask? Because when you say "I point out that in the actual chapter of Col 2- Paul deals not with destroying scripture, nor with declaring and end to eating and drinking, nor with declaring an end to the Sabbath." You have to say the same concerning the feasts and new moon celebrations. If you are going to thump your idea then why did you eliminate the feasts and new moons? Oh you will say, the feast days and new moons were not part of the 10 commandments. Maybe you are not aware, but the 10 commandments are part of the Book of the Law. Yep, God told Moses to write everything in the Book of the Law. Breaking any part of the law is an act of disobedience for those of you who believe we are still under the law. Furthermore Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the (Book of the) Law. Yes, it was the Book of the Law He was referring in chapter 5. Your idea is pure disobedience to Jesus words. When you write on this forum the things you do you take responsibility in leading people down the wrong path. You have passed feast days and new moons from the law. In fact you have passed most of the law disobeying Jesus words not to pass one jot......

Twisting the real meaning of scripture to try to make it fit into preconceived ideas is a slippery slope. Be very careful what you teach.

 

[Bob S]

First of all Bob no one is trying to destroy scripture. That is a complete misnomer.

If I were you I would be very careful in interpreting Col 2 the way you have. Why you should ask? Because when you say "I point out that in the actual chapter of Col 2- Paul deals not with destroying scripture, nor with declaring and end to eating and drinking, nor with declaring an end to the Sabbath." You have to say the same concerning the feasts and new moon celebrations. If you are going to thump your idea then why did you eliminate the feasts and new moons? Oh you will say, the feast days and new moons were not part of the 10 commandments. Maybe you are not aware, but the 10 commandments are part of the Book of the Law. Yep, God told Moses to write everything in the Book of the Law. Breaking any part of the law is an act of disobedience for those of you who believe we are still under the law. Furthermore Jesus said not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the (Book of the) Law. Yes, it was the Book of the Law He was referring in chapter 5. Your idea is pure disobedience to Jesus words. When you write on this forum the things you do you take responsibility in leading people down the wrong path. You have passed feast days and new moons from the law. In fact you have passed most of the law disobeying Jesus words not to pass one jot......

Twisting the real meaning of scripture to try to make it fit into preconceived ideas is a slippery slope. Be very careful what you teach.

Isn't it wonderful that we can take the Holy Writ verbatim. WE don't have to twist wording to make preconceived ideas seem true. When Paul writes that the 10 commandments were temporary commands He was not mincing words. It says what He meant it to say and it goes along with His other writings like Gal 3 where he tells us the law was until Christ, The law was!

 

[Sophrosyne]

Legalists use a lot of straw men to try and convince people that they are right and twist scripture to create these straw men.

 

[BobRyan]

in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

Paul is focused on the problem of refuting the practice of 'making stuff up' --

First of all Bob no one is trying to destroy scripture.

Well that is certainly true of Paul in Colossians 2 as the OP points out.He is not trying to destroy scripture at all.

If I were you I would be very careful in interpreting Col 2 the way you have.

Thanks. It is nice to have agreement now and then.

Why you should ask? Because when you say "I point out that in the actual chapter of Col 2- Paul deals not with destroying scripture, nor with declaring and end to eating and drinking, nor with declaring an end to the Sabbath." You have to say the same concerning the feasts and new moon celebrations.

True - because Heb 10 is where the animal sacrifice issue is dealt with and stated to be at an end, that is not even the point of Col 2.

Col 2 is not about Paul sinning by observing Passover - as he does repeatedly. It is about the problem of certain people "making stuff up" in true Mark 7:6-13 and Mark 2:20-27 fashion.

It is about -
Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

scripture is NOT - "the commandments and teachings of men"

EVEN when the stuff they are making up has to do with a Bible topic as is the case in Mark 2:20-28 where they add their own "stuff" to the Sabbath commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the wording for the "certificate of debt" paid - our transgressions/sins forgiven... debt paid

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.


4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

 

[Bob S]

in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

That is very odd for you, a dedicated SDA to admit. If there is no condemnation for what we eat or what we drink then why do you, if you are upholding the standards of Adventism, believe that it is a sin to drink strong beverages, coffee, tea and even vinegar? Yep, the prophet demanded that the flock refrain from those things, but did she? As we have found out no she didn't. You can read all about vinegar and oysters in her writings.

It would seem that you speak with forked tongue there friend

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

The SDA church has made up rules and if you read the history of the church you will know that Adventists throughout their history have judged others, so trying to expose us for believing what Paul said there in Col2 you have really exposed yourselves. Let me name a couple of rules you have made up. Take the tithing system you are so quick to defend with the Old Testament. Your system imposes taking 10% from all members earning money. The truth is that God never imposed the 10% from all Israelites. Only the ones that raised livestock and crops paid the tax. Yours have made a man made rule and if you don't pay it the prophet wrote that you would loose your eternal inheritance. Secondly, you have made a man made unclean meat law intended for Israel only. This you take from the Torah which your prophet wrote was done away with on the Cross. Since I was once one of you I do not have to go far to have the power to denounce what you try to tell us is the truth. Now you are twisting Col2:16 into something not recognizable. Lets read it again and see if what you say it is saying is true. 16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

Does that sound like Paul is giving Sabbath a pass? You, as a Christian, cannot condemn me for not celebrating Sabbath. Now isn't that just a plain as the nose on my face. Your prophet cannot condemn me for drinking a little wine or eating a pork chop. Actually, I don't care for either, but I am free in Christ to imbibe. It is not what goes into the mouth that condemns it is what comes out. I believe Jesus said that.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

My,My what is that old scriptural adage about removing the log in your own eye..........

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

Didn't that make you twinge a little copying those verses

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

Paul is focused on the problem of refuting the practice of 'making stuff up' --




Well that is certainly true of Paul in Colossians 2 as the OP points out.He is not trying to destroy scripture at all.

Well, if you take what I have written above you will find out that I agree Paul was not destroying scripture, He was supporting the new covenant in which there are nor requirements for eating, drinking, feast days, new moons and of course the old covenant Israelite only Sabbath

Thanks. It is nice to have agreement now and then.

You are welcome.

True - because Heb 10 is where the animal sacrifice issue is dealt with and stated to be at an end, that is not even the point of Col 2.

Hold on here pal, enlighten me. Part of the words in Col 2:16,
eating, drinking, feast days, new moons and of course the old covenant Israelite only Sabbath
are dealing with something that has past and part is something that is relevant today? Was Paul so stupid that he would put all those thoughts together and confuse us as to which belong where? I don't think so. So now lets just see where Adventists stand on each issue.

Eating- eating still in forced. unclean meats

Drinking- still in force. no alcohol, tea, coffee and vinegar per your doctrinal requirements

New moons- not in force, fulfilled at the Cross with all but two ceremonial laws

Feast days- not in force. fulfilled at the Cross with all but two ceremonial laws

Weekly Sabbath- still in force. ritual law found in the 10 commandments given only to Israel

Really, Paul is telling us that we should not allow anyone to tell us that the Sabbath, eating and drinking laws are not relevant for Christians, but feast days and new moons are ones that are not relevant? Something is rotten there my friend. You cannot have it both ways

Col 2 is not about Paul sinning by observing Passover - as he does repeatedly. It is about the problem of certain people "making stuff up" in true Mark 7:6-13 and Mark 2:20-27 fashion.

Where did Paul mention sinning. We are not to be judged for eating, something you do, drinking, something you do and not observing the Israelite Sabbath, something you do. Plain and simple isn't it.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

That is very odd for you, a dedicated SDA to admit.

On the contrary - SDAs eat food and drink water all the time... even including juice. Thought everyone knew that by know. The purpose of Col 2 is not to condemn food or scripture, it is to condemn "making stuff up", made-up rules that are not in scripture at all.

Well, if you take what I have written above you will find out that I agree Paul was not destroying scripture, He was supporting the new covenant

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.

You are welcome.

Really, Paul is telling us that we should not allow anyone to tell us that the Sabbath, eating and drinking laws are not relevant for Christians,

Paul is not writing Colossians 2 - to "delete scripture" rather Paul is condemning the commandments and teaching of man... not "of God"


Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.


4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,


20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2 is not about Paul sinning by observing Passover - as he does repeatedly. It is about the problem of certain people "making stuff up" in true Mark 7:6-13 and Mark 2:20-27 fashion.

Where did Paul mention sinning. We are not to be judged for eating, something you do, drinking, something you do and not observing the Israelite Sabbath, something you do. Plain and simple isn't it.

Paul is condemning those who "make stuff up" -- not condemning his own practice of keeping Passover.

 

[Bob S]

On the contrary - SDAs eat food and drink water all the time... even including juice. Thought everyone knew that by know. The purpose of Col 2 is not to condemn food or scripture, it is to condemn "making stuff up", made-up rules that are not in scripture at all.

Nice try my friend, you know exactly where I am coming from. There is no justification for your cover up of Col 2. Your theory shoots yourself in the foot as I have indicated. You cannot have it both ways by picking the ones to shuck and holding on to the others.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.

Okay, we all know That the Torah is not what is on our hearts. Since you keep stating that it is lets say you are correct for arguments sake. Please answer my questions. Why hasn't the Holy Spirit persuaded you to keep feast days, wear certain clothing, kill the Passover lamb, send your wife out of camp during certain times, get right with the proper way to pay tithe, and all the other rules that applied to the laity? Answer this, if the Sabbath is new covenant and written on our hearts why does the SDA church spend millions upon millions trying to bring people into the church? Why is it you have to pull them in with night after night of brainwashing and the the success rate is 2 or 3 in a hundred? Why are not people jumping at the chance to abide by what is supposedly written in our hearts?

You know in your heart your theory about the old law written on our hearts is bogus. Brainwashing is a terrible thing.

You are welcome.

Paul is not writing Colossians 2 - to "delete scripture" rather Paul is condemning the commandments and teaching of man... not "of God"

Brainwashing is a terrible thing.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; What is Paul referring to as mere shadows. What is a shadow? What are the things Paul is referring to? but the substance belongs to Christ. What does that verse mean to you? I am sure you won't answer, you seldom do when pressed into a corner, So I will answer.

The dictionary says a shadow is: "a dark figure or image cast on the ground or some surface by a body intercepting light." "a slight suggestion; trace", "
a hint or faint, indistinct image or idea; intimation and "shadows of things to come. So, food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day are shadows of things to come. but the substance belongs to Christ. The reality is found in Christ. All those food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day are shadows. Jesus is our reality.

"

 

[BobRyan]

Nice try my friend, you know exactly where I am coming from. There is no justification for your cover up of Col 2. Your theory shoots yourself in the foot as I have indicated. You cannot have it both ways by picking the ones to shuck and holding on to the others.

Your avoidance of the actual text is ... "impressive".

Pardon me while I call attention to the text... again.


Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.


4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,


20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.

Well, if you take what I have written above you will find out that I agree Paul was not destroying scripture, He was supporting the new covenant

You are welcome.

Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?

Context. ... context... context.

Okay, we all know That the Torah is not what is on our hearts. Since you keep stating that it is lets say you are correct for arguments sake. Please answer my questions. Why hasn't the Holy Spirit persuaded you to keep feast days,

The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Hebrews 10 telling us that that animal sacrifices ended at the cross. A point made dozens of times on this section of the board so far... as we all know by now.

So then back to the question -

Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?

Context. ... context... context.

 

[Bob S]

Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?

Context. ... context... context.

I have no idea what God revealed to Jeremiah except what he revealed to us. He revealed that it would be a NEW covenant. That means it is not the warmed up old covenant with its 613 laws. It is a new covenant written not on parchment, but on the hearts of us who love and serve Him. Yes, it is a new place where the covenant has been placed, but there is nothing you can prove that will convince those of us we are missing the content of the new. You cannot defend that it is the same warmed over covenant that the Israelites failed to keep. Why would a loving Father burden His children with 613 laws, take away the sacrificial rules, and keep the laws of stoning for breaking Sabbath, wearing the Yamaka, tassels, and so on. You have yet to answer how those laws have vanished from the 613 that you claim are part of the new covenant. You have to explain why there is no explanation for how to observe all the laws you say are binding on Christians. Gentiles were not privy to the Torah. How were they instructed in Torah requirements. They split from their Jewish brothers, started worshiping on another day and there is no historical knowledge of them keeping the Torah minus the sacrifices. Lets get real, your posture is not solid. It does not fit with Paul's writings nor does it fit with what John taught us.

Shouldn't we be pricked by the Holy Spirit that is within us and the writings of scripture to observe Sabbath? You cannot use Paul's writings to prove Sabbath observance. He has declared that the 10 Commandments, which contained the ritual Sabbath law, to have been only the temporary guide of Israel. Praise the Lord He gave us the holy Spirit in place of the 10. Jesus said not one jot.... would pass from the law until all was fulfilled yet Adventism has been backed into a corner and cannot get out because they contend that not all has been fulfilled. Not all has been fulfilled yet you remove hundreds of bits and pieces, flatly disobeying Jesus.

Yes, you have a lot of explaining to do my friend. You are protected by the rules on this forum otherwise we could expose what your other beliefs are. You can call us, by quoting scriptures supposedly aimed at us, all the names you want. We have a relationship that is impenetrable. The Holy Spirit guides us into the real truth unlike having a prophet who has led otherwise great people into darkness.

 

[Bob S]

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.



You are welcome.

Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?

Context. ... context... context.



The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Hebrews 10 telling us that that animal sacrifices ended at the cross. A point made dozens of times on this section of the board so far... as we all know by now.

So then back to the question -

Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?

Context. ... context... context.

I notice you didn't answer most of my questions so I will paste them again so that we can get a better understanding where you are coming from. Please give us your best shot.

wear certain clothing, kill the Passover lamb, send your wife out of camp during certain times, get right with the proper way to pay tithe, and all the other rules that applied to the laity? Answer this, if the Sabbath is new covenant and written on our hearts why does the SDA church spend millions upon millions trying to bring people into the church? Why is it you have to pull them in with night after night of brainwashing and the the success rate is 2 or 3 in a hundred? Why are not people jumping at the chance to abide by what is supposedly written in our hearts?

 

[Sophrosyne]

I have no idea what God revealed to Jeremiah except what he revealed to us. He revealed that it would be a NEW covenant. That means it is not the warmed up old covenant with its 613 laws. It is a new covenant written not on parchment, but on the hearts of us who love and serve Him. Yes, it is a new place where the covenant has been placed, but there is nothing you can prove that will convince those of us we are missing the content of the new. You cannot defend that it is the same warmed over covenant that the Israelites failed to keep. Why would a loving Father burden His children with 613 laws, take away the sacrificial rules, and keep the laws of stoning for breaking Sabbath, wearing the Yamaka, tassels, and so on. You have yet to answer how those laws have vanished from the 613 that you claim are part of the new covenant. You have to explain why there is no explanation for how to observe all the laws you say are binding on Christians. Gentiles were not privy to the Torah. How were they instructed in Torah requirements. They split from their Jewish brothers, started worshiping on another day and there is no historical knowledge of them keeping the Torah minus the sacrifices. Lets get real, your posture is not solid. It does not fit with Paul's writings nor does it fit with what John taught us.

Shouldn't we be pricked by the Holy Spirit that is within us and the writings of scripture to observe Sabbath? You cannot use Paul's writings to prove Sabbath observance. He has declared that the 10 Commandments, which contained the ritual Sabbath law, to have been only the temporary guide of Israel. Praise the Lord He gave us the holy Spirit in place of the 10. Jesus said not one jot.... would pass from the law until all was fulfilled yet Adventism has been backed into a corner and cannot get out because they contend that not all has been fulfilled. Not all has been fulfilled yet you remove hundreds of bits and pieces, flatly disobeying Jesus.

Yes, you have a lot of explaining to do my friend. You are protected by the rules on this forum otherwise we could expose what your other beliefs are. You can call us, by quoting scriptures supposedly aimed at us, all the names you want. We have a relationship that is impenetrable. The Holy Spirit guides us into the real truth unlike having a prophet who has led otherwise great people into darkness.

I have yet to hear an explanation how knowing exactly how to keep the Sabbath is "written" on the heart or how to properly avoid certain meats is "written" on the heart. I always thought anything dealing with the "heart" had to be something more emotional and less intellectual in that complicated thoughts and feelings and instructions were meaningless to the "heart" in that they "heart" isn't the "mind, or brain".

You won't get anywhere with this logic it has been tried hundreds of times over the years with the SDA and they aren't allowed to "get it" it would be to them akin to blasphemy to "think" for themselves.

 

[BobRyan]

Yesterday at 8:40 PM #70 scripture based

By contrast:

Ad hominem attack based

You won't get anywhere with this logic it has been tried hundreds of times over the years with the SDA and they aren't allowed to "get it" it would be to them akin to blasphemy to "think" for themselves.

Let the unbiased objective readers decide which they would choose as a guide.

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.
Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?
Context. ... context... context.

I notice you didn't answer...wear certain clothing, kill the Passover lamb, send your wife out...

As an answer to the simple question posted there - your post is using avoidance.


The answer to your "list" is so obvious that even the bulk of pro-Sunday sources "get it".

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

A clear distinction between TEN Commandments and the ceremonial laws.

 

[Bob S]

As an answer to the simple question posted there - your post is using avoidance.

HuH!

The answer to your "list" is so obvious that even the bulk of pro-Sunday sources "get it".

If it so simple then why do you avoid answering?

A clear distinction between TEN Commandments and the ceremonial laws.

Apparently you don't get it. Out of one side of you mouth yo tell us that only the sacrificial system has been abated by quoting Heb 10. Then from somewhere else in your mouth you claim feast days, new moons have been done away. Now you refer to ceremonial laws as being distinct from the 10. Sorry friend, you just keep diggin the hole deeper and deeper. Ask any Jew if there is a distinction. They are all from God and are all written in the book of the law. The only thing that is distinct is the distinction of the laws dealing with morality and those dealing with rituals. All were important. Death could occur from breaking rituals just as could happen with breaking moral requirements.

 

[bugkiller]

in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

Paul is focused on the problem of refuting the practice of 'making stuff up' --




Well that is certainly true of Paul in Colossians 2 as the OP points out.He is not trying to destroy scripture at all.



Thanks. It is nice to have agreement now and then.



True - because Heb 10 is where the animal sacrifice issue is dealt with and stated to be at an end, that is not even the point of Col 2.

Col 2 is not about Paul sinning by observing Passover - as he does repeatedly. It is about the problem of certain people "making stuff up" in true Mark 7:6-13 and Mark 2:20-27 fashion.

It is about -
Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

scripture is NOT - "the commandments and teachings of men"

EVEN when the stuff they are making up has to do with a Bible topic as is the case in Mark 2:20-28 where they add their own "stuff" to the Sabbath commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

I think you believe the law is for those you are preaching to while placing yourself above the law just like our Politicians.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here is the wording for the "certificate of debt" paid - our transgressions/sins forgiven... debt paid

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.


4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Where does that certificate come from? IOW where did it get its authority? Without its authority there is no certificate.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Col 2 is not about Paul sinning by observing Passover - as he does repeatedly. It is about the problem of certain people "making stuff up" in true Mark 7:6-13 and Mark 2:20-27 fashion.




Paul is condemning those who "make stuff up" -- not condemning his own practice of keeping Passover.

Where do you have Paul observing the 7th day Sabbath? Are you trying to imply attendance at the synagogue is proof of Sabbath observance. If so you flunked out yet again.

bugkiller