Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

[bugkiller]

<snip>

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"
<snip>

in Christ,

Bob

How can this be when we have

But now we are delivered from the law...Rom 7:6 The commandments of God as you infer them is the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

<snip>
The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

in Christ,

Bob

How can this be when we have

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.I Tim 1

The law AKA the 10 Cs aren't a requirement of the Christian.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68092712,"]Those who embrace the Bible - look at the texts below and rejoice. I think we can agree on that.

============

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

It is the "ticket" the "penalty" that the LAW demands that is nailed to the cross. NOT the LAW. For if the LAW is nailed to the cross then even the wicked" are not sinners" -- "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 by NT standards that is STILL the definition of sin.

Thus in Romans 3 and Galatians 3 when we are told that the world is STILL under condemnation - under sin - then the moral LAW is STILL in operation, still defining sin.[/QUOTE]

Thanks - but it was primarily the Bible that is in that post - so I cannot take all the credit.
What are you addressing in those texts? not sure what you mean.
Where is "Amended Sabbath" in the Col 2 text??
Col 2 is not a statement about deleting scripture. The NT repeated states that the NT is to be included as "scripture".

The moral law of Romans 3 and Romans 7 includes "Love God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself".

All the moral law defines sin and places fallen mankind under condemnation and in need of salvation.

But for the saved saint - it is "written on the mind and on the heart" Heb 8.
Until we read Romans 3, Gal 3, Romans 2:13-16 etc.
1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

"Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

so live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty - James 2.

Sin exists after the cross -- see Romans 3, Gal 3.

1 John 3:4 sin STILL IS transgression of the Law.

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate..."

Romans 6 "what then shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? God forbid!"

Rom 8:5-8 the lost do not submit to God's Law neither indeed can they -- by contrast to the saved who are not at war with God according to the text.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

How can this be when we have

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.I Tim 1

The law AKA the 10 Cs aren't a requirement of the Christian.

bugkiller

Heb 8 says that the Law of God is written on the heart and mind of the saints under the New Covenant.

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you sin not".
1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law"
"Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

As 1 Tim 1 says - if you never sin then you never need the law to mark out your mis-steps and transgression.

For those who do sin - the law is necessary as "a mirror" according to James.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

Those who embrace the Bible - look at the texts below and rejoice. I think we can agree on that.

============

Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

It is the "ticket" the "penalty" that the LAW demands that is nailed to the cross. NOT the LAW. For if the LAW is nailed to the cross then even the wicked" are not sinners" -- "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 by NT standards that is STILL the definition of sin.

Thus in Romans 3 and Galatians 3 when we are told that the world is STILL under condemnation - under sin - then the moral LAW is STILL in operation, still defining sin.

Thanks - but it was primarily the Bible that is in that post - so I cannot take all the credit.
What are you addressing in those texts? not sure what you mean.
Where is "Amended Sabbath" in the Col 2 text??
Col 2 is not a statement about deleting scripture. The NT repeated states that the NT is to be included as "scripture".

The moral law of Romans 3 and Romans 7 includes "Love God with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself".

All the moral law defines sin and places fallen mankind under condemnation and in need of salvation.

But for the saved saint - it is "written on the mind and on the heart" Heb 8.
Until we read Romans 3, Gal 3, Romans 2:13-16 etc.
1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

"Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

so live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty - James 2.

Sin exists after the cross -- see Romans 3, Gal 3.

1 John 3:4 sin STILL IS transgression of the Law.

1 John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin NOT - but if anyone does sin we have an advocate..."

Romans 6 "what then shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? God forbid!"

Rom 8:5-8 the lost do not submit to God's Law neither indeed can they -- by contrast to the saved who are not at war with God according to the text.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12



Heb 8 says that the Law of God is written on the heart and mind of the saints under the New Covenant.

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2:1 "These things I write that you sin not".
1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law"
"Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

As 1 Tim 1 says - if you never sin then you never need the law to mark out your mis-steps and transgression.

For those who do sin - the law is necessary as "a mirror" according to James.

in Christ,

Bob

Wish you would post the truth about Heb 8 instead of some personal opinion not supportable by the chapter.

Wish you'd quite trying to say sin is only and always a violation of the law.

I Tim 1 says the law isn't for he righteous (Christian). I quoted it for you too.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Wish you would post the truth about Heb 8 instead of some personal opinion not supportable by the chapter.

Your opinion of my post... noted.

My opinion of Heb 8 will be posted shortly.

Wish you'd quite trying to say sin is only and always a violation of the law.

Your opinion of my quote of 1John 3:4 noted.

The Bible says: "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

My opinion of that 1John 3:4 Bible fact - is that I believe it is true.

I Tim 1 says the law isn't for he righteous (Christian). I quoted it for you too.

1 Tim 1 lists a number of break-the-commandments-of-God sins and declares that it is for those who sin. Clearly 1 John 3 statement "He is righteous who DOES righteousness" comes into consideration.

1 John 3
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[BobRyan]

As for my opinion of Heb 8
1. The new Covenant is for Christians
2. The New Covenant is the Gospel whereby we have forgiveness of sins vs 12
3. And we have adoption into the family of God - vs 10
4. And the Law known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 is written on the heart and mind - vs 10
5. It is made with "The house of Israel" and the "House of Judah" vs 8 just as is the Ex 20:1 TEN Commandments.
6. CHRIST is the God of Sinai - giving the TEN Commandments - HIS Commandments vs 6-9


Heb 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[bugkiller]

As for my opinion of Heb 8
1. The new Covenant is for Christians
2. The New Covenant is the Gospel whereby we have forgiveness of sins vs 12
3. And we have adoption into the family of God - vs 10
4. And the Law known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 is written on the heart and mind - vs 10
5. It is made with "The house of Israel" and the "House of Judah" vs 8 just as is the Ex 20:1 TEN Commandments.
6. CHRIST is the God of Sinai - giving the TEN Commandments - HIS Commandments vs 6-9


Heb 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

What are "better promises?" Is it the law?

What first covenant do you think v7 is talking about?

What does the word "new" mean?

Doesn't "not according to" self define the word new? Why do you insist it is the same covenant merely moved from stone tablets to the heart? I can find no evidence for such.

If the covenant is made only with both houses of Israel, I need Peter's testimony about Cornelius explained.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Jeremiah writes that God says
"31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

And Heb 8 affirms - "10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"


1. Exegesis demands that we admit that this is the Law of God known to Jeremiah and Israel at the time.
2. The NEW Covenant like the TEN Commandments - is made with Israel.
3. Instead of the "on tables of stone" model of Sinai - it is "on the heart and mind" - born-again new-heart model.
4. Same moral law -- different location.
5. Same moral law - as even the Baptist Confession of Faith, The Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, Andy Stanley.... admit when it comes to the moral law of the TEN Commandments.
6. Thus Paul can say "Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Therefore I stated my opinion of Heb 8 as -
1. The new Covenant is for Christians
2. The New Covenant is the Gospel whereby we have forgiveness of sins vs 12
3. And we have adoption into the family of God - vs 10
4. And the Law known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 is written on the heart and mind - vs 10
5. It is made with "The house of Israel" and the "House of Judah" vs 8 just as is the Ex 20:1 TEN Commandments.
6. CHRIST is the God of Sinai - giving the TEN Commandments - HIS Commandments vs 6-9

 

[bugkiller]

Bob please quote and respond to the post the below link connects you with. Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ath-or-scripture.7877023/page-3#post-68179132

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jeremiah writes that God says
"31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

And Heb 8 affirms - "10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"


1. Exegesis demands that we admit that this is the Law of God known to Jeremiah and Israel at the time.
2. The NEW Covenant like the TEN Commandments - is made with Israel.
3. Instead of the "on tables of stone" model of Sinai - it is "on the heart and mind" - born-again new-heart model.
4. Same moral law -- different location.
5. Same moral law - as even the Baptist Confession of Faith, The Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, Andy Stanley.... admit when it comes to the moral law of the TEN Commandments.
6. Thus Paul can say "Do we make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Therefore I stated my opinion of Heb 8 as -
1. The new Covenant is for Christians
2. The New Covenant is the Gospel whereby we have forgiveness of sins vs 12
3. And we have adoption into the family of God - vs 10
4. And the Law known to Jeremiah in Jer 31:31-33 is written on the heart and mind - vs 10
5. It is made with "The house of Israel" and the "House of Judah" vs 8 just as is the Ex 20:1 TEN Commandments.
6. CHRIST is the God of Sinai - giving the TEN Commandments - HIS Commandments vs 6-9

Thanks for your opinion on Heb 8.

Points 1 and 5 can't both be true.

Point 4 can't possibly be true because of the word "new" and the phrase "not according to."

Point 5 can't be true if Peter's testimony in Acts about Cornelius is true.

Point 6 also can't be true if John 1:17 is true.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Your opinion is noted.

I already addressed the "differences" between old and new - in my prior post. Feel free to respond to the point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[bugkiller]

Your opinion is noted.

I already addressed the "differences" between old and new - in my prior post. Feel free to respond to the point.

in Christ,

Bob

What differences? You simply say the OC AKA the 10 Cs are moved from stone to the heart while Jeremiah says very plainly the NC isn't like the OC.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob please quote and respond to the post the below link connects you with. Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ath-or-scripture.7877023/page-3#post-68179132

bugkiller

Bump for Bob because you seemed to have missed this.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

How can this be when we have

But now we are delivered from the law...Rom 7:6 The commandments of God as you infer them is the law.

bugkiller

The law condemns the lost - as Romans 3 and Galatians 3 state. The text of Romans 7 points to the fact that the lost need to be delivered from that still valid - still condemning moral law of God that "still defines sin" as we see in Romans 4 and 1John 3:4.

So the Law has a certain relationship to the lost - driving them to the cross.

And as Heb 8 and Jer 31 - the Law has a different work on the saints - for those that have the Law written on the heart and mind.

Same law.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What differences? You simply say the OC AKA the 10 Cs are moved from stone to the heart while Jeremiah says very plainly the NC isn't like the OC.

bugkiller

Indeed that is "How" the OC and the NC differ.

 

[listed]

The law condemns the lost - as Romans 3 and Galatians 3 state. The text of Romans 7 points to the fact that the lost need to be delivered from that still valid - still condemning moral law of God that "still defines sin" as we see in Romans 4 and 1John 3:4.

So the Law has a certain relationship to the lost - driving them to the cross.

And as Heb 8 and Jer 31 - the Law has a different work on the saints - for those that have the Law written on the heart and mind.

Same law.

in Christ,

Bob

Why does 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" if we are delivered from the law according to Rom 7:6?

 

[listed]

Indeed that is "How" the OC and the NC differ.

Please explain how movement makes things different other than a new different place. The Scripture plainly says "not according to." This make it impossible and unmistakable to be the same.

 

[listed]

The law condemns the lost - as Romans 3 and Galatians 3 state. The text of Romans 7 points to the fact that the lost need to be delivered from that still valid - still condemning moral law of God that "still defines sin" as we see in Romans 4 and 1John 3:4.

So the Law has a certain relationship to the lost - driving them to the cross.

And as Heb 8 and Jer 31 - the Law has a different work on the saints - for those that have the Law written on the heart and mind.

Same law.

in Christ,

Bob

Christians are not the lost. So by your post the law does not apply to Christians.

 

[bugkiller]

Christians are not the lost. So by your post the law does not apply to Christians.

Like your logic.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Why does 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" if we are delivered from the law according to Rom 7:6?

Under the NEW Covenant the Jer31:31-33 LAW of God is "written on the mind and heart" according to Hebrews 8:6-10 -- so then Paul makes this statement "Do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

But some construe Rom 7:6 to infer war against God's Law - instead of pointing to freedom from condemnation.