Col 2:16 is about not judging others

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Mar 23, 2017

Bob S said:
If you will just read 2Cor3:7-11 Paul will give you that information. Paul wrote that the ministry of the 10 commandments WAS transitory and that would have left Israel without their guide, the 10 Commandments Jesus gave man a special gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before He left and went back to His Father. He has and is giving that gift to those who believe in Him Jn 14. The Holy Spirit is ministering in each one of those who have chosen to be part of true Christianity, not the defunct 10 commandments that were only a partial list of ways to treat God, ourselves and our fellow man. That does not mean that the 10 were not perfect. They were perfect for a fledgling nation, but the fact is they would not even live up to those ten let alone all the other ways we disregard our duty and love to all mankind, ourselves and God. Only through the power of the Holy Spirit and the Grace that Jesus gives so freely can Christians live our lives in accordance with the requirements of the Father.

Sure! And surely also <<the requirements of the Father>> are no different and none other than Jesus' or the Holy Spirit's.

It is also true that <<the 10 commandments>> are <defunct> unto salvation to any of those for whom Jesus has become their inspiration and guide and ideal, in short, their only Law and Salvation.

But that does not mean there is conflict between 'the Ten C's' and Jesus or Jesus' guidance and authority. A disciple of Jesus will love the Ten Commandments; he loves every word and rule in the Old Testament for its own beauty, virtue and value. It still to true believers is God's faultless Word which forever stays good for the edification of the Body of Christ. But they know that unto their eternal destiny, nothing but the Living Saviour Jesus Christ means anything.

And everybody says, Amen! and smiles and hugs everybody with brotherly love.

But don't say, Sabbath! Don't ever think, Fourth Commandment! Because then you're beyond hope; Christ has become of no use for you.
No, no, wait, don't start with your Scriptures, mister! You just don't fit, friend.
We'll stay courteous. We'll give you all the help you may need if we can. We'll give you shelter and food, and will always show you your rightful human respect.

We have reached consensus then? Fine. You do realise, brethren, they are Sabbatarians; they're not Christian. Just don't tell them in the face, it wouldn't look Christian. We are led by the Spirit!

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Mar 23, 2017

Bob S said:
Colossians 2
The Book of Colossians
Chapter 2Verses:
2:16 Therefore - Seeing these things are so. Let none judge you - That is, regard none who judge you. In meat or drink - For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths.
2:17 Which are but a lifeless shadow; but the body, the substance, is of Christ.
John Wesley

I must hold John Wesley in one hand and Pastor Bob in the other and determine who holds the most weight in interpreting scripture. In light of verse 17 I must make my decision, a lifeless shadow indicates to me that all those things have no substance in my life. Unless someone has been so indoctrinated with believing that the Sabbath, of only Israel, is binding on all humanity these paraphrased verses only bring to light the real meaning of Paul's intent and that is the old covenant is not relevant to Christians duty to God. The new covenant is not the old one warmed over as some try to make us believe. They are rendering this falsehood to propagate their preconceived ideas that the rituals of Judaism are relevant to Christianity. Jesus is enough.

It is clear why you could not hold out in the SDA church. It is much clearer why you won't stand Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Assemblies.
That's why we are better off being Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Home Assemblies. Thanks and glory to God!

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Mar 23, 2017

bugkiller said:
Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Who is following the teachings of another here?

The best post you ever placed; the best question you ever asked!

Now what is your answer, please?

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Mar 23, 2017

Bob S said:
You have created a great way to derail Col 2:16. Just go to other verses and start commenting on them instead of staying on topic of Col 2:16. It is not made up stuff when Paul writes that feasts, new moons and Sabbath are shadows. If Paul is correct then trying to keep a shadow is in vein. can we substitute made up stuff for shadows? Lets see how that sounds in full context.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are made up stuff?

Oh yes that fits your agenda perfectly, not.

For the umpteenth time, let's see which stuff is made up stuff...
Paul does not write <feasts>
Paul does not write <moons>
Paul does not write <Sabbath>
Paul does not write <shadows>
Paul does not write <are>
Paul does not write <<feasts, new moons and Sabbath are shadows>>
Paul does not write <<trying to keep a shadow>>

<Correct>, Paul is quoted,
"If ye then be raised with Christ (3:1), THEN THEREFORE, don’t you let yourselves be judged and condemned by anyone (of the world 2:8, 20) in your eating and drinking or with regard to your eating and drinking of feast, whether of month’s or of Sabbaths’—all which then therefore shadows forth what soon must be, the BODY of Christ's Own ... Nourishment being ministered ... growing with the vitality of God!"

The suffering Church triumphant! THAT is what "things shadow(s) forth a-coming" and "therefore then" is encouraged, "Do not you let yourselves be robbed of your Reward" which is CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE!

We cannot substitute made up stuff for 'shadow' or for that matter for any other word or words in the TEXT! Tell that to Bob Ryan too.

bugkiller · Mar 25, 2017

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
The best post you ever placed; the best question you ever asked!

Now what is your answer, please?

Why are you making it appear I quoted Col 2 in that post when I asked BobRyan about his quote?

bugkiller

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2017

This thread is on Colossians 2...There is another thread for Galatians 3 and 4 that I will link to - for example #117

Colossians 2 makes two key points.

1. It is against false teachers "making stuff up" vs the real - pure doctrine of the Gospel.
2. It is promoting the Matthew 7 pre-cross principle “Judge not that you be not judged”

Notice that the issue of “Making stuff up” was a problem addressed before the cross as well --

Mark 2:23-28 - making stuff up about 7th day Sabbath keeping
Mark 7:6-13 - making stuff up that contradicts the Commandments of God.

===== details on “not making stuff up” in col 2

BobRyan said:
As for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

Notice how irrefutably that post makes the point about not making stuff up...

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

bugkiller said:
So why are you doing that?What is your point?You do not have enough knowledge to defraud me. Who is following the teachings of another here?

bugkiller

doing what/?

Quoting the Bible to make my point?

I do it because I love the Bible -- AND love what it says.

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2017

Bob S said:
I must hold John Wesley in one hand and Pastor Bob in the other and determine who holds the most weight .

Sounds like a fun "game"

I prefer the actual Bible to "games"

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2017

Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

BobRyan said:
This thread is on Colossians 2...There is another thread for Galatians 3 and 4 that I will link to - for example #117

Colossians 2 makes two key points.

1. It is against false teachers "making stuff up" vs the real - pure doctrine of the Gospel.
2. It is promoting the Matthew 7 pre-cross principle “Judge not that you be not judged”

Notice that the issue of “Making stuff up” was a problem addressed before the cross as well --

Mark 2:23-28 - making stuff up about 7th day Sabbath keeping
Mark 7:6-13 - making stuff up that contradicts the Commandments of God.

===== details on “not making stuff up” in col 2

Notice how irrefutably that post makes the point about not making stuff up...
.

BABerean2 said:
2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　 (Some of us keep hanging onto the "ministry of death", written on stones. If you do not know what was written on stones refer to Exodus 34:28.)

2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　(What is the covenant of bondage in this verse?)

Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　

Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　(Some of us refuse to cast out the bondwoman.)

Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

The inheritance does not come through the bondwoman.

If you cannot figure out who the bondwoman is, refer to Galatians 4:24-25 above.

Was Paul "making stuff up" ?

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2017

BABerean2 said:
2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　 (Some of us keep hanging onto the "ministry of death", written on stones. If you do not know what was written on stones refer to Exodus 34:28.)

2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　(What is the covenant of bondage in this verse?)

Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　

Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　(Some of us refuse to cast out the bondwoman.)

Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　

The inheritance does not come through the bondwoman.

If you cannot figure out who the bondwoman is, refer to Galatians 4:24-25 above.

Was Paul "making stuff up" ?

Gal 4 is about gentiles who 'were enslaved to those things which are no gods at all" Gal 4 having been converted from paganism to Christianity and then when Christian Jews pressed them about being "second class citizens" because they did not have Sinai and the worship of the one true God as their pagan non-Jew heritage - Paul points out that BOTH Jews AND gentiles have the NEW JERUSALEM as their future - which far surpasses the history/heritage of Sinai for physical Jews.

Thus ending all the motivation they had been given for becoming physical jews - circumcised and joining the Jewish nation.

That point remains as stated on the Gal 4 thread - even though you just posted a lot of large fonts.

And the result is that Christians are still.. to the very day... not supposed to take God's name in vain.

The point remains.

bugkiller · Mar 25, 2017

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
For the umpteenth time, let's see which stuff is made up stuff...
Paul does not write <feasts>

heorté:a feast

Paul does not write <moons>

nouménia: new moon.

Paul does not write <Sabbath>

sabbaton: Sabbath

Paul does not write <shadows>

skia: shadow

Paul does not write <are>

eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being - commonly expressed as are. Consult a dictionary.

Paul does not write <<feasts, new moons and Sabbath are shadows>>

Yep the Greek text is a lie as illustrated above.

Paul does not write <<trying to keep a shadow>>

I will buy that.

<Correct>, Paul is quoted,
"If ye then be raised with Christ (3:1), THEN THEREFORE, don’t you let yourselves be judged and condemned by anyone (of the world 2:8, 20) in your eating and drinking or with regard to your eating and drinking of feast, whether of month’s or of Sabbaths’—all which then therefore shadows forth what soon must be, the BODY of Christ's Own ... Nourishment being ministered ... growing with the vitality of God!"

I am not worried in the least because you do not spoil me through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ per Col 2:8.

The suffering Church triumphant! THAT is what "things shadow(s) forth a-coming" and "therefore then" is encouraged, "Do not you let yourselves be robbed of your Reward" which is CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE!

You do not rob me of my reward in Jesus the Christ.

We cannot substitute made up stuff for 'shadow' or for that matter for any other word or words in the TEXT! Tell that to Bob Ryan too.

Great advice.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 25, 2017

BobRyan said:
Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Meaning what? Enforcing the law? hardly. Remember Rom 7:6?

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

Yeppers!!!! Bob please pay attention to what you write.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

True enough. So what are you talking about ?

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

You are just unbelievable.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 25, 2017

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Sure! And surely also <<the requirements of the Father>> are no different and none other than Jesus' or the Holy Spirit's.

It is also true that <<the 10 commandments>> are <defunct> unto salvation to any of those for whom Jesus has become their inspiration and guide and ideal, in short, their only Law and Salvation.

But that does not mean there is conflict between 'the Ten C's' and Jesus or Jesus' guidance and authority. A disciple of Jesus will love the Ten Commandments; he loves every word and rule in the Old Testament for its own beauty, virtue and value. It still to true believers is God's faultless Word which forever stays good for the edification of the Body of Christ. But they know that unto their eternal destiny, nothing but the Living Saviour Jesus Christ means anything.

And everybody says, Amen! and smiles and hugs everybody with brotherly love.

But don't say, Sabbath! Don't ever think, Fourth Commandment! Because then you're beyond hope; Christ has become of no use for you.
No, no, wait, don't start with your Scriptures, mister! You just don't fit, friend.
We'll stay courteous. We'll give you all the help you may need if we can. We'll give you shelter and food, and will always show you your rightful human respect.

We have reached consensus then? Fine. You do realise, brethren, they are Sabbatarians; they're not Christian. Just don't tell them in the face, it wouldn't look Christian. We are led by the Spirit!

Huh? What in the world are you saying?

bugkiller

BobRyan · Mar 25, 2017

bugkiller said:
Meaning what? Enforcing the law? hardly. Remember Rom 7:6?Yeppers!!!! Bob please pay attention to what you write.True enough. So what are you talking about ?You are just unbelievable.

bugkiller

ok that was pretty funny - but what was your point??

bugkiller · Mar 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
doing what/?

Quoting the Bible to make my point?

I do it because I love the Bible -- AND love what it says.

Zactly what I expected from you.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
Sounds like a fun "game"

I prefer the actual Bible to "games"

Yeah, right. ehehe

bugkiller

bugkiller · Mar 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
ok that was pretty funny - but what was your point??

You are not going to answer my questions. OK nothing else is new.

bugkiller

HARK! · Nov 18, 2017

BobRyan said:
In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is 0pposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command. - so it is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

Sha'ul was writing to the Gentile converts living in Colossae. It's important to understand that Colossae was known for it's Paganism. Very few Jews were living in that area; so who would be judging these new converts?

I suspect that it was the Pagan, friends and family, of these converts, judging them for being obedient to YHWH. I've experienced the same thing, for doing the same thing.

BobRyan · Nov 18, 2017

BobRyan said: ↑
doing what/?

Quoting the Bible to make my point?

I do it because I love the Bible -- AND love what it says.

bugkiller said:
Zactly what I expected from you.
bugkiller

Thank you sir.

BobRyan · Nov 18, 2017

Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

bugkiller said:
So what are you talking about ?You are just unbelievable. bugkiller

Scripture... it is called "scripture"

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2017

perfect

Col 2:16 is about not judging others

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