Col 2:16 is about not judging others

[BobRyan]

This Col 2 topic comes back time after time on the Sabbath section of the board.

 

[BABerean2]

This Col 2 topic comes back time after time on the Sabbath section of the board.

How about Galatians 3:16-29 where Paul discusses the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant?
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

How about Galatians chapter 4 where Paul compares the Sinai Covenant to "bondage" and compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the covenant of "bondage"?

How about Hebrews 8:6 where we find that a better covenant is "now" in effect?

How about Hebrews 8:13 where we find that the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has made the Old Covenant "obsolete"?

How about Hebrews 12:18-24, where we find that we are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, but instead to the New Covenant of Christ?

How about John 15:10 where we find two different sets of commandments?


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[BobRyan]

How about Galatians 3:16-29 where Paul discusses the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant?
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

At Sinai we have such commands as
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6
And we have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
And we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

And of course Jeremiah 31:31-33 reminds us that these Laws of God are 'written on the heart' under the NEW Covenant.

There is nothing in Galatians 3 telling Christians to ignore these scriptures.

Rather Galatians 3 reminds us that the LAW - (what even the Baptist Confession of Faith admits to be the "moral law of God" ) including the Ten Commandments - convicts the lost of their sin and points them to Christ.

But that does not mean that Christians are going around ignoring the Commandments of God

In fact even in the NT
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
"this IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

 

[BobRyan]

How about John 15:10 where we find two different sets of commandments?

Nothing in John 15 tells us to ignore God's commandments.

Matthew 19 Jesus says to "KEEP the Commandments" and He lists quite a few that are NOT in John 15 and not in Acts 15.

Paul repeats that same list as Jesus - Romans 13.

We can trust Jesus is not violating scripture -- rather He debunks the idea that God's commandments were being deleted in the Gospels.

 

[BobRyan]

How about Hebrews 8:6 where we find that a better covenant is "now" in effect?

Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that it is CHRIST that gives the Ten Commandments.
Hebrews 8:6-10 reminds us that the NEW Covenant is made with the "House of Israel" and Judah - which all Christians are considered to be in Christ.
Hebrews 8:6-10 is quoting Jeremiah 31:31-33 verbatim showing that the NEW Covenant is unchanged from its form in the OT.
And in the OT "the LAW of God was written on the heart" under that very same covenant.

Because as Gal 1:6-9 reminds us - "only ONE Gospel"
Gal 3:8 "That GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"
Heb 4:2 "The GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was to THEM also"

 

[BobRyan]

How about Hebrews 8:6 where we find that a better covenant is "now" in effect?

How about Hebrews 8:13 where we find that the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has made the Old Covenant "obsolete"?

Old Covenant "Obey and live"
New Covenant - forgiveness of sins and that LAW written on the heart - Jer 31:31-33

Same moral LAW (commandments of God) -- different covenant

At Sinai we have such commands as
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6
And we have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
And we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

And so they continue even in the NT - and in the NT
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

 

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant: Bob George

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My understanding is that Bob George teaches his followers not to listen to Christ when in Matthew 6:12 Christ teaches us to pray "forgive us our sins as we forgive our debtors" saying that Christ's teaching before the cross should be ignored..... gets a quick trip to my "do not take him seriously" list.

In my book "Christians" ACCEPT the teaching of Christ rather than "REJECT" the teaching of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BABerean2]

In my book "Christians" ACCEPT the teaching of Christ rather than "REJECT" the teaching of Christ.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

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[Ken Rank]

This Col 2 topic comes back time after time on the Sabbath section of the board.

And it is very misunderstood. People take it as "we can do whatever we want and nobody can judge" when it is really saying that when we do these things, don't worry about others judging.

 

[BABerean2]

And it is very misunderstood. People take it as "we can do whatever we want and nobody can judge" when it is really saying that when we do these things, don't worry about others judging.

The Law of Christ is a higher standard than the "ministry of death written on stones".


Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat_5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat_5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


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[BobRyan]

How about Hebrews 8:6 where we find that a better covenant is "now" in effect?

How about Hebrews 8:13 where we find that the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 has made the Old Covenant "obsolete"?

Old Covenant "Obey and live"
New Covenant - forgiveness of sins and that LAW written on the heart - Jer 31:31-33

Same moral LAW (commandments of God) -- different covenant

At Sinai we have such commands as
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6
And we have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
And we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

And so they continue even in the NT - and in the NT
"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

The Law of Christ is a higher standard than the "ministry of death written on stones".

The much imagined war between the teaching of Christ and the Bible - does not exist.

John 14
10 ""Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12:
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Heb 8:6-12 it is CHRIST giving us His Commandments at Sinai


At Sinai we have such commands as
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6
And we have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
And we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

And Christ AFFIRMS it.!!

see Matt 22.
See Matt 19.

Rom 3:31 "what then - do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

In these examples Christ MAGNIFIES the scripture - instead of deleting it.


Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Mat_5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat_5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Mat_5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

In the OT we have the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33
The NEW Covenant writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind -- instead of deleting it.

And as we see in Hebrews 8:6-12 it is "UNCHANGED"

the SAME Moral law of God that condemns the sinner under the OLD Covenant - is WRITTEN on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant.

Thus it is STILL a sin if we live in rebellion against "God's Commandments" like
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,


As long as the LAW is NOT written on the heart - it merely condemns all as sinners.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

That OLD COVENANT role of the MORAL law of God - REMAINS to do its work on the lost sinner just as Romans 3 says ... even in the NT

 

[BobRyan]

Most of the upper case bold underline in the above post is not my typing - it is a quote from BABerean2

 

[BABerean2]

Most of the upper case bold underline in the above post is not my typing - it is a quote from BABerean2

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


You have failed to "cast out" what Paul described as the covenant of "bondage" in the passage above, and what Peter described as the "yoke" in the verse below.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

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[BobRyan]

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


You have failed to "cast out" what Paul described as the covenant of "bondage" in the passage above, and what Peter described as the "yoke" in the verse below.


Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

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The much imagined war between the teaching of Christ and the Bible - does not exist.

Heb 8:6-12 it is CHRIST that gives us the TEN Commandments

the SAME Moral law of God that condemns the sinner under the OLD Covenant - is WRITTEN on the heart and mind under the NEW Covenant.

Thus it is STILL a sin if we live in rebellion against "God's Commandments" like
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6

Acts 15 solution rests on the fact that for NT Christians "Moses is preached every SABBATH in the Synagogues" and indeed Acts 18:4 we see believers - both Jews AND gentiles hearing Gospel preaching "every Sabbath"

The "yoke" of Acts 15 is the yoke of "making stuff up" man-made-tradition as they were fighting in Acts 15 regarding the 'made up' rule that gentiles had to be circumcised -- a made-up rule that not even the nonChristian Jews were promoting.

John 14
10 ""Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 12:
49 "" For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Heb 8:6-12 it is CHRIST giving us His Commandments at Sinai


At Sinai we have such commands as
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:6
And we have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
And we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"

And Christ AFFIRMS it.!!

see Matt 22.
See Matt 19.

In these examples Christ MAGNIFIES the scripture - instead of deleting it.

Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Rom 3:31 "what then - do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

Bible details affirming God's Ten Commandments in the moral law of God -- for all mankind -- so incredibly obvious that even the pro-sunday scholars admit to it.

And that includes --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[BABerean2]

Heb 8:6-12 it is CHRIST that gives us the TEN Commandments

Why did you skip verse 13?

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

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[BobRyan]

The old covenant is "Obey and live" as Galatians 3 points out. Nobody was ever saved under it.

The NEW Covenant is the one where God writes 'His LAW" on the heart and mind - the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers -- Jer 31:31-33

This is irrefutable.

The LAW of God was "written on the heart" even for the OT saints.

 

[BABerean2]

the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers -- Jer 31:31-33

This is irrefutable.

If it is "irrefutable" you could show us the term "moral law" in scripture.

You cannot because it is a term invented by the Reformers who could not let go of the Sinai covenant of "bondage" described in Galatians chapter 4.

Nobody alive today has ever been guilty of breaking the 4th commandment, because it is the "sign" of a temporary covenant made with the children of Israel.

We find in Exodus 34:28 that the 10 commandments are the Sinai covenant.

In Deuteronomy 5:1-3 we find that the Sinai covenant was not made with anyone before Mount Sinai.

In Hebrews 8:13 we find that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

In the passage below we are told to judge no person in Sabbath keeping.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


These scriptures are "irrefutable".

Since Acts chapter 15 there has been a battle between the Judaisers who could not let go of the Sinai Covenant and those who embraced the Law of Christ.

During most of that time the Judaisers have won the day.

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[BobRyan]

The old covenant is "Obey and live" as Galatians 3 points out. Nobody was ever saved under it.

The NEW Covenant is the one where God writes 'His LAW" on the heart and mind - the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers -- Jer 31:31-33

This is irrefutable.

The LAW of God was "written on the heart" even for the OT saints.

If it is "irrefutable" you could show us the term "moral law" in scripture.

That would be "mere gaming"

Still it is true that both the Baptist Confession of Faith - and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit to the bible detail you are rejecting

What is more - Romans 3 19-21 spells it out for you

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW"

Which is exactly how the Baptist Confession of Faith - and also the Westminster Confession of Faith define the term " 'moral law" -- the one that defines what sin is

 

[BobRyan]

As for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB

 

[BABerean2]

Still it is true that both the Baptist Confession of Faith - and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit to the bible detail you are rejecting

I did not know you had become a Baptist or a Presbyterian, recently.
I thought you were still following the teachings of Ellen White.

Instead of looking at the confessions of men which were written during the last 500 years, let us look at God's Word.

What did Peter say about the "yoke", at the Jerusalem council?

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision, because it was something they did bear.)



What did Paul say about the Sinai Covenant of "bondage"?

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

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