Circumcision

[HARK!]

But he had become a child of God.
Which means that it didn't matter that he wasn't of the "birthright of Abraham".

Timothy had a Jewish mother and grandmother; he just hadn't been circumcised as his father was a Greek. If the Jews still had a rule about not marrying non Jews, Timothy's mother disobeyed it. But Timothy still became a Christian.

Let's not obfuscate the matter.

Timothy was of the nations until he came to Yahshua, plain and simple.

 

[HARK!]

You can't study a letter that Paul wrote to one church by throwing in other Scriptures that were not written to them - they may not have been written at all at that point.

That's funny. If you want to go cutting books out of the Bible, I say let's cut out the middle man altogether.

Who is your Messiah Paul or Yahshua?

Here is what Yahshua says:


(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 

[Strong in Him]

I have read it. I've studied this letter carefully. Again, what does this have to do with the OP?

Err, everything!
Paul heard that one of his churches was being falsely taught that they had to be circumcised and obey the law. The reason he was so concerned/upset was because it wasn't true.

Your OP asks "why must we be circumcised?" Not, "why might it be a good idea?", or "what does Scripture say about Gentiles believers and circumcision?" - "Why MUST we ....?"
And the answer is just the same as it was then; not only do we not have to be; we shouldn't.

 

[Strong in Him]

Let's not obfuscate the matter.

Timothy was of the nations until he came to Yahshua, plain and simple.

And in Jewish eyes he was still a Gentile even then - a deluded Gentile.
Paul wanted to respect those he was preaching to, so he had Timothy circumcised - even though he didn't need to, and even though it may have made no difference to whether or not anyone accepted the Gospel.

Personally, if I wanted to preach in France/Spain/India I'd observe their laws and customs.
That's what Jesus did; that's what Paul did.

 

[Strong in Him]

That's funny. If you want to go cutting books out of the Bible, I say let's cut out the middle man altogether.

I didn't say anything at all about cutting books out of the Bible.
I said that you can't study one letter written to one church by quoting other letters/Gospels written to other people.

If you wrote a letter to someone about a business/financial matter, would you quote your great aunt Edith who had written to you with news about her cat?

 

[Strong in Him]

Same difference.

No.
Similar, in that I have been rescued, needed a Saviour and have been given his word - but not at all the same as me being Hebrew and having ancestors who were rescued from Egypt.

 

[HARK!]

Paul heard that one of his churches was being falsely taught that they had to be circumcised and obey the law.

This is false.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

Slaving for YHWH's law...

These are not the words of a man who considers obedience to YHWH as a false teaching. If he did he would be teaching in contradiction to Messiah.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.


He would also fail the Deuteronomy 13 test.

Deuteronomy 13
CLV(i) 1 In case there arises a prophet or a dreamer of dreams among you, and he gives to you a sign or a miracle, 2 and the sign or the miracle comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying:Let us go after other elohim (whom you have not known), and let us serve them, 3 you shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams because Yahweh your Elohim is probing you to know whether you are loving Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 After Yahweh your Elohim shall you go, and Him shall you fear; His instructions shall you observe, and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve, and to Him shall you cling. 5 Then that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he spoke of defection from Yahweh your Elohim (the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt and the One ransoming you from the house of servants) so as to induce you from the way in which Yahweh your Elohim has instructed you to walk. Hence eradicate the evil from among you. 6 In case your brother, the son of your father, or the son of your mother or your son or your daughter or the wife of your bosom or your associate who is as your own soul should incite you in concealment, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known, you or your fathers, 7 of the elohim of the peoples who are around you, those near to you or those far from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land). 8 neither shall you comply with him, nor shall you hearken to him; neither shall your eye commiserate over him, nor shall you spare him; and you shall not cover up for him. 9 For you shall kill, yea kill him. Your hand shall be among the first against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people thereafter. 10 You will stone him with stones so that he dies, for he sought to induce you away from Yahweh your Elohim, the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt, from the house of servants. 11 Thus all Israel shall hearken and fear, and they shall not again do anything like this evil thing among you. 12 In case you hear it said of one of your cities which Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you to dwell there, 13 that men, sons of decadence, have gone forth from among you and induced the dwellers of their city, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known), 14 then you will inquire, investigate and ask diligently. And behold, if the truth of the matter is being established that this abhorrence was done among you, 15 then you shall smite, yea smite the dwellers of that city with the edge of the sword. Doom it, all those who are in it and its domestic beasts, with the edge of the sword. 16 All its loot shall you get together to the middle of its square, and you will burn the city with fire and all its loot as a holocaust to Yahweh your Elohim. It will become an eonian barrow; it shall not be built again. 17 Nothing whatsoever shall cling to your hand from the doomed loot so that Yahweh may turn back from the heat of His anger and be compassionate to you. He will show you compassion and cause you to increase, just as He had sworn to your fathers, 18 provided that you shall hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim to observe all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, to do what is upright and good in the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim.

 

[Strong in Him]

This is false.

Nope - read Acts 15 and then Galatians.

 

[HARK!]

I didn't say anything at all about cutting books out of the Bible.
I said that you can't study one letter written to one church by quoting other letters/Gospels written to other people.

If you wrote a letter to someone about a business/financial matter, would you quote your great aunt Edith who had written to you with news about her cat?

Paul wasn't writing to aunt Edith about her cat. Paul was a lawyer; and generally wrote on matters of the law.

2 Timothy 3:16

Complete Jewish Bible

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living;

We are to look at the bible as a whole for a complete understanding.

 

[HARK!]

Nope - read Acts 15 and then Galatians.

Yup, I've not only read them; but I've done extensive studies on them; thus, this thread.

Perhaps you might study them.

 

[Jipsah]

If you wrote a letter to someone about a business/financial matter, would you quote your great aunt Edith who had written to you with news about her cat?

You've met my great aunt Edith then.

 

[HARK!]

No.
Similar, in that I have been rescued, needed a Saviour and have been given his word - but not at all the same as me being Hebrew and having ancestors who were rescued from Egypt.

Are you not now a Hebrew? Have you not yet crossed over? Were the mixed multitude who entered covenant at Sinai, Hebrews before they came to YHWH?

 

[Jipsah]

Are you not now a Hebrew? Have you not yet crossed over? Were the mixed multitude who entered covenant at Sinai, Hebrews before they came to YHWH?

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

 

[HARK!]

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

I'm not sure how this answers any of my questions.

Again, James is addressing the Ger Toshav, and the bare minimum that they must conform to, while they learn Torah every Sabbath.

No he's not correcting Paul.

(CLV) 1Co 6:9
Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,

(CLV) 1Co 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; not revilers, not extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.

Let alone Messiah.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul wasn't writing to aunt Edith about her cat.

Oh; thanks for clearing that one up.

Paul was a lawyer; and generally wrote on matters of the law.

Paul was a former Pharisee who wrote about trusting Jesus and not the law.

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you not now a Hebrew?

Nope - British.

Have you not yet crossed over?

Crossed over where?

Were the mixed multitude who entered covenant at Sinai, Hebrews before they came to YHWH?

Yes.
Initially they were Joseph's family - about 70 of them who settled in Egypt to escape the famine in Canaan. Then they grew in number - descendants of Abraham, as God had promised.
And they always knew Yahweh. Jacob, Isaac and Abraham worshipped him. They were their ancestors; forefathers, the Patriarchs of their faith.

Later they became called "Israelites", and much later still, "Jews".
I have no Hebrew/Jewish heritage and none of their history, traditions and culture. I suppose I might find a connection somewhere, if I went back far enough. But my ancestors are all British most English with some Scottish blood.

 

[Strong in Him]

You've met my great aunt Edith then.

She sends her love - and from the cat, too.

 

[Jipsah]

I'm not sure how this answers any of my questions.

Explicitly, is how. The gentile were not called upon to be circumcised or to keep the Law. End discussion.

 

[Jipsah]

Nope - British.

But my ancestors are all British most English with some Scottish blood.

Same here, exept my dad married a Korean just to throw a spanner in the works. Still just a Yank to my mates in London, though. No Hebrew/Jewish/Israelites in the list in any case.

The thing that always troubles me is that the folks who maintain that gentile christians have to keep the law is that they always seem able to adduce bundles of OT Scripture that imply that it's necessary, while assiduously ignoring NT Scriptures that say quite explicitly that we do not. That, and the fact that they seem to have a curious pared down version of the Law that they presumably keep. Kinda like "OK, no pork or shrimps, Saturdays off, no theft or murder, don't curse your mom, everything else is fine." I don't think you can do a chop job on the Law like that and still claim to be keeping it.

 

[HARK!]

Explicitly, is how. The gentile were not called upon to be circumcised or to keep the Law. End discussion.

The gentiles, of the nations, goyim, pagans, were called to Messiah. Those who responded, followed his example. Those who rejected him, reject YHWH's perfect law.

(CLV) Jn 5:45
"Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing this writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"