Circumcision

[HARK!]

Yes.
Initially they were Joseph's family - about 70 of them who settled in Egypt to escape the famine in Canaan. Then they grew in number - descendants of Abraham, as God had promised.
And they always knew Yahweh. Jacob, Isaac and Abraham worshipped him. They were their ancestors; forefathers, the Patriarchs of their faith.

Nope, two different groups.

(CLV) Ex 12:37
The sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses toward Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, those of mastery, besides the little ones.

(CLV) Ex 12:38
Moreover a mixed multitude ascended with them, and flocks, herds and cattle, exceedingly heavy.

 

[HARK!]

The thing that always troubles me is that the folks who maintain that gentile christians have to keep the law is that they always seem able to adduce bundles of OT Scripture that imply that it's necessary, while assiduously ignoring NT Scriptures that say quite explicitly that we do not.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.


(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

(CLV) MarK 12: 28-34
28 And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all? 29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." 30 And, You shall be loving the Lord God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept."

Yahshua is quoting the Shema:

(CLV) DT 6:4
4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

What is the love of YHWH?

What did YHWH say?

From the Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing LAWLESSNESS,
(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone -repudiating Moses' LAW is dying without =pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant iby which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[HARK!]

Crossed over where?

A Hebrew

In Hebrew, “crossing over” means exactly that – to be a Hebrew. The words cross, pass and a true Hebrew are derived from the same root: ABR.

Abraham was a Hebrew because he crossed over from a culture of idol worshipers into monotheism, from Ur of the Chaldeans into a promised land. The children of Israel are called Hebrews (see for example Gen 43:32; Ex. 2:6, 13; and others)



Crossing over – A Hebrew » Kehila News Israel.

 

[Strong in Him]

A Hebrew

In Hebrew, “crossing over” means exactly that – to be a Hebrew. The words cross, pass and a true Hebrew are derived from the same root: ABR.

Abraham was a Hebrew because he crossed over from a culture of idol worshipers into monotheism, from Ur of the Chaldeans into a promised land. The children of Israel are called Hebrews (see for example Gen 43:32; Ex. 2:6, 13; and others)

I'm not a Hebrew.
I'm a British Christian - born again, in Christ, a child of God, filled with his Spirit.

The bottom line is that, far from having to be circumcised, I cannot, have not and never will be.
So, actually, this is completely academic for me, and I'm going to unsubscribe. I have enough to do with figuring out what God wants me to do, without arguing about something which is irrelevant.

Have fun.

 

[Thera]

I'm not a Hebrew.
I'm a British Christian - born again, in Christ, a child of God, filled with his Spirit.

The bottom line is that, far from having to be circumcised, I cannot, have not and never will be.
So, actually, this is completely academic for me, and I'm going to unsubscribe. I have enough to do with figuring out what God wants me to do, without arguing about something which is irrelevant.

Have fun.

I didn't like this post as you had some solid arguments against heresy, so will be sad to see you absent from the thread, but the scripture regarding dogs, the sacred, pearls and swine does come to mind for those who would so willfully substitute truth for heresy.

 

[Strong in Him]

I didn't like this post as you had some solid arguments against heresy, so will be sad to see you absent from the thread, but the scripture regarding dogs, the sacred, pearls and swine does come to mind for those who would so willfully substitute truth for heresy.

Never say never.
I've discovered that even if you unsubscribe from a thread, if someone quotes your post, you receive a notification about it. I've been redrawn into many a thread that way (not that that's a hint.)

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[ralliann]

It's an outward expression of faith, much like Baptism. If the change hasn't taken place within; the outward sign means nothing.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.


(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

Where does the law of Moses command sacrificing of your son?

But the law of faith did to Abraham.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[HARK!]

Where does the law of Moses command sacrificing of your son?

But the law of faith did to Abraham.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[ralliann]

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

Never mind. sorry I asked

 

[eleos1954]

The Jerusalem Council

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.

The first group are non believers. they follow the traditions of men, the Talmud. They don't even keep the Torah.

(CLV) Ac 15:1
And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved."

Their argument is that you cannot be saved unless you show the outward sign. This is not what Torah teaches. Was Abraham saved before or after he showed the sign?

Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 99.

(CLV) Gn 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.


Are disciples of Yahshua saved before or after Baptism?

Here is the other side of the Argument. These men are believers:


(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law.

These are the only two arguments that are being made.

One is that you must be circumcised to keep the law of Moses. This is the law that Yahshua preached throughout his ministry unto death; as he called us to follow his example.

The other is that you must be circumcised to be saved. These are the only two sides to this debate.

You can't come in 2000 years later and add your own argument.

Here is the ruling:


(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

This is of the bare minimum that newcomers must respect to even share table fellowship with believers.

Why? (and this part seems to be ignored by those who have contempt for the law that Yahshua preached throughout is ministry unto death):

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For (because) Moses (Torah), from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."


Now shortly after Paul left this meeting; he circumcised Timothy himself.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Messiah followed the Torah, not the Talmud.

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (FOREVER)

well ... what was the point of circumcision ... why did God bring it into being?

as a reminder ... to rely on God .... so physical circumcision was that reminder ... starting with Abraham ... Abraham did not rely on God's promise that He would provide him a son .... and rather chose to have a son through Hagar ... and because of that (not relying on God) .... the physical reminder of physical circumcision was part of that covenant.

and now circumcision takes place in the heart ..... as a reminder to rely on God.

So circumcision although not necessarily physical is alive and well and takes place in the heart .... rely on God.

What Does the Bible Say About Circumcision Of The Heart?

 

[HARK!]

well ... what was the point of circumcision ... why did God bring it into being?

Paul might give us a clue:

(CLV) Ro 4:11
And he obtained the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which was in uncircumcision, for him to be the father of all those who are believing through uncircumcision, for righteousness to be reckoned to them,

I see it as an outward expression of what is to take place within, much like baptism.

and now circumcision takes place in the heart ..... as a reminder to rely on God.

This is nothing new.

(CLV) Dt 10:16
Hence you will circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and you should no longer stiffen your neck.

 

[Thera]

well ... what was the point of circumcision ... why did God bring it into being?

as a reminder ... to rely on God .... so physical circumcision was that reminder ... starting with Abraham ... Abraham did not rely on God's promise that He would provide him a son .... and rather chose to have a son through Hagar ... and because of that (not relying on God) .... the physical reminder of physical circumcision was part of that covenant.

and now circumcision takes place in the heart ..... as a reminder to rely on God.

So circumcision although not necessarily physical is alive and well and takes place in the heart .... rely on God.

What Does the Bible Say About Circumcision Of The Heart?

Thank you for the link. Circumcision is an interesting symbol - I've read it also represents cutting off the seed/likeness of Adam, with the foreskin representing the sinful nature. As the sinful nature is passed down to the children through the man, likewise, only males are born with foreskin requiring circumcision. In Deuteronomy 10:16 (linked), uncircumcision is also linked with pride and being hard-hearted - common problems in man - “Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.”



I also find it interesting that today, physical circumcision is common more because of health benefits than religious symbolism. Yet the bible had identified more than 2000 years ago how important it is for us to have healthy, circumcised hearts.

 

[visionary]

Thank you for the link. Circumcision is an interesting symbol - I've read it also represents cutting off the seed/likeness of Adam, with the foreskin representing the sinful nature. As the sinful nature is passed down to the children through the man, likewise, only males are born with foreskin requiring circumcision. In Deuteronomy 10:16 (linked), uncircumcision is also linked with pride and being hard-hearted - common problems in man - “Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.”

View attachment 309377

I also find it interesting that today, physical circumcision is common more because of health benefits than religious symbolism. Yet the bible had identified more than 2000 years ago how important it is for us to have healthy, circumcised hearts.

Strange that you point out that is represents the cutting away the seed/likeness of Adam, and representing the removal of sinful nature and yet by that very physical act, men have described how much more sensual it is.

 

[Thera]

Strange that you point out that is represents the cutting away the seed/likeness of Adam, and representing the removal of sinful nature and yet by that very physical act, men have described how much more sensual it is.

Isn't that the purpose of circumcision (both spiritual and physical)? The foreskin can impede the function of the male member, in a similar way that the foreskin of our hearts makes us stubborn and insensitive to God's prompting? (i.e. isn't increased "sensuality" in the context of a righteous marriage a good thing?)

That both spiritual and physical circumcision improves performance is just one of the benefits of obedience.

 

[Jan001]

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.


(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

(CLV) MarK 12: 28-34
28 And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all? 29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." 30 And, You shall be loving the Lord God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept."

Yahshua is quoting the Shema:

(CLV) DT 6:4
4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

What is the love of YHWH?

What did YHWH say?

From the Decalogue
(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

Which commandments of the OT Covenant do you believe NT Covenant Christians should be obeying?

 

[ralliann]

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

yes he did as God told him to test his faith. He trusted God to raise him from the dead. All those patriarches believed the promised inheritance was by the resurrection from the dead.

 

[HARK!]

Which commandments of the OT Covenant do you believe NT Covenant Christians should be obeying?

That's a loaded question.

By "commandments of the OT" do you mean YHWH's direction?

If so, then all of Israel should obey all that we are able.


(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (חדש) covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

(CLV) Jer 31:32
Not like the covenant which I contracted with their fathers in the day I held fast onto their hand to bring them forth from the land of Egypt, which covenant of Mine they themselves annulled while I was Possessor over them, averring is Yahweh.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract »with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law (תורה) within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

חדשה means new as in the sense of renewed, or repaired like new, or restored. Renewed would be the best translation for obvious reasons.

As Ancient Hebrew is a concrete language; תורה is best translated as direction.

 

[Jan001]

That's a loaded question.

By "commandments of the OT" do you mean YHWH's direction?

If so, then all of Israel should obey all that we are able.


(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (חדש) covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

(CLV) Jer 31:32
Not like the covenant which I contracted with their fathers in the day I held fast onto their hand to bring them forth from the land of Egypt, which covenant of Mine they themselves annulled while I was Possessor over them, averring is Yahweh.

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract »with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law (תורה) within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

חדשה means new as in the sense of renewed, or repaired like new, or restored. Renewed would be the best translation for obvious reasons.

As Ancient Hebrew is a concrete language; תורה is best translated as direction.

I should not have made my question so broad. Sorry about that.

Are you a Jew according to nationality? I certainly cannot read or write anything in the Hebrew language.

You quoted the following in one of your previous posts:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

What do you think this means for the Christian today?

 

[HARK!]

Are you a Jew according to nationality? I certainly cannot read or write anything in the Hebrew language.

That is what I provided the definitions of those words, as rendered in the manuscripts, in English.

You quoted the following in one of your previous posts:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

What do you think this means for the Christian today?

The message remains the same.

YHWH calls his people to repentance, to obedience to his direction.

The Prophets repeated that message.

The greatest of Prophets, John the Baptist, repeated that message.

He prepared the way for Messiah, who repeated the same message.

If we are to follow Messiah; we will follow his example of obedience to YHWH's instruction.

(CLV) Mt 19:16
And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?"

(CLV) Mt 19:17
Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."