Churches operating on money is wrong

[Monk Brendan]

Our church have zero icons, zero wood carvings and zero pictures (unless for "pictures" of glass containing a word from scripture each for reminding of them + a cross attached to the pulpit, none of these really important).Using the available money for what Christ spesfically asked to be done - Matthew 28, 18-20 - is more important than using those money for what Christ not asked to be done.

Even your "dead" church must need upkeep. Paint for the walls inside and outside, new carpeting upon occasion, new pews when the present ones wear out, etc. Plus, you have an organ--which we don't have, as we sing the whole Liturgy a capella. But that organ will wear out.

What happens when your leader/pastor, etc. retires? Can you afford to "call" another? Who plays the organ, and does he/she get paid?

Unless absolutely EVERYTHING is being done by volunteer work, and the wood, paint, carpeting, and so on are being donated (which, by the way, is just another way of needing money for the church), and nobody takes a salary, even your church is going to NEED cash money.

Do you have indoor plumbing? Running water? Electricity? Water supply involves paying for it, along with garbage pickup, trash removal, whatever--or do the individual congregants load up garbage and take it with them? If no indoor plumbing, then you must have an outhouse or two, and those things need to be cleaned out--even if they are properly dug and constructed--and who does that work? All in all, that building and property must have millions of kroner of work in it before it was habitable, and there must be thousands of kroner each month in upkeep. Who pays those bills?

And BTW, St. John of the Desert Melkite Church does NOT pay the pastor/deacons/music minister. That IS all done on a volunteer basis. But we do have upkeep, water, electricity, and so on that needs to be paid for. And we have outside missions that need supporting. Several years ago, I spent money each month supporting a Christian student in Syria. I kept that up until he graduated from high school. Plus, thousands of dollars go to missions in Syria, so that THEY can also preach the Word.

Not at all - I belive a DEAD building to be functional for his LIVING church of re-born people. The King's throne is in heaven and we a) have never been asked copying it, and b) don't have a chance copying it. The temple reflected God's mightyness before He sent Jesus, His Son and our Savior, not for showing anyting today when we have seen Jesus. Heaven is for sure not going to be simple wooden huts, but the Christians are not in heaven yet.

There ARE Christians in heaven (don't use that old "soul sleep" heresy--it won't fly. And when did Jesus command us to STOP reflecting His glory and might? I haven't read anything in the Bible about that!

 

[PaaKne]

Even your "dead" church must need upkeep. Paint for the walls inside and outside, new carpeting upon occasion, new pews when the present ones wear out, etc. Plus, you have an organ--which we don't have, as we sing the whole Liturgy a capella. But that organ will wear out.

What happens when your leader/pastor, etc. retires? Can you afford to "call" another? Who plays the organ, and does he/she get paid?

Unless absolutely EVERYTHING is being done by volunteer work, and the wood, paint, carpeting, and so on are being donated (which, by the way, is just another way of needing money for the church), and nobody takes a salary, even your church is going to NEED cash money.

Do you have indoor plumbing? Running water? Electricity? Water supply involves paying for it, along with garbage pickup, trash removal, whatever--or do the individual congregants load up garbage and take it with them? If no indoor plumbing, then you must have an outhouse or two, and those things need to be cleaned out--even if they are properly dug and constructed--and who does that work? All in all, that building and property must have millions of kroner of work in it before it was habitable, and there must be thousands of kroner each month in upkeep. Who pays those bills?

And BTW, St. John of the Desert Melkite Church does NOT pay the pastor/deacons/music minister. That IS all done on a volunteer basis. But we do have upkeep, water, electricity, and so on that needs to be paid for. And we have outside missions that need supporting. Several years ago, I spent money each month supporting a Christian student in Syria. I kept that up until he graduated from high school. Plus, thousands of dollars go to missions in Syria, so that THEY can also preach the Word.

Even our "dead" building need upkeep. Outside paint (the paint only) about 250 USD every fifth or sixt year, inside paint the same or slightly more every 20th year or so - floor every fifth or sixt year when outside painted. . Never carpeting exept three small toilets (50 sp feet totally?) as the floors are wooen and painted. We have chairs like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HFvwD6KWwQk/U0F6tv8Yl3I/AAAAAAAAMAg/yXHVxl_TA80/s1600/IMG_7174.JPG (plain wood, not painted), , not pews, (FYI: I stated clearly: "These pictures are not from the church we are belonging to, but a church acting the same way") Those chairs -175-180 - will last for the next 30-40-50 years, but will of course need to be changed sometime. - cost equal to about 3000 USD today. We don't have an organ, but do have a piano. That's not much used as we also prefer a capella, but it is available and voluntary taken care of by those caring for have a piano.

We don't have any leader/pastor, we have a self-supplying board of elders, so no retirement problem before God decide one...

Any work is done voluntary (as mentioned in post #47 "as those "gathering together also include painters, carpeters, plumbers, electricans") and partly materials are donated, but of couse our church are in need of some cash. (As stated in my post #198: "No church can exist absolutely without money in a society based on the use of money, but why does a church need a large budget - beautiful buildings and paid (sometimes decent paid) workers?".) However: SOME cash - the amount our LORD remind his children about putting into a white envelope and in the "red box" available every Sunday when leaving after the breaking of bread in the morning. NOT dependent on a budget that must be fulfilled every month. Money avaiable in the red box into bank account "for the house", and in the yellow box "for the work", what be done decided upon that - so plain and simply.

Yes, we have indoor plumbing, (three toilets + a simple kichen used for arranging food + making tea/coffee) and we have electristy. Water supply are to be paid for, and so are sludge removal. Garbarge are to be paid for (not very much as the district compulsory handle garbage removal and a house owned by a foundation and used for organizational, non-commercial purposes only pays about equal to 20 USD/year for that removal at mimum use - one bag/four cubic feet every month), compostable garbarge are of course composted. Fire insurance are to be paid for. Sometimes also wood for our stoves need to paid for - as mentioned in post #192 about 1 USD pr 4-6 cubic feet, bought rooted. Total 18000-21000 NOK or 2000-2500 USD/year, mostly electricy bill. The building was 100 % paid when bought (btw about 550000 NOK or 62000-63000 USD) and some renovation work done voluntary. Until those money were maid avaialbe by the LORD, we didn't by, but squezed us into private homes in vinter and gathered together in barns/open aired else, asking the LORD for a way to have more room.

There ARE Christians in heaven (don't use that old "soul sleep" heresy--it won't fly. And when did Jesus command us to STOP reflecting His glory and might? I haven't read anything in the Bible about that!

No, not in heaven, as the new heaven and the new earth still aren't prepard. The souls don't sleep at all, as Paul states "absent from the body, and to be present with the LORD" (2 Corinthians 5,8), they are in a first-class waiting room, but the buildings in Heaven aren't ready yet. When they are. Christ will return and call for all his Bride. At Calvary the law was fulfilled - also that part of law requiring a building to reflect God's mightyness. Thus neighter Peter, Paus, Johannes or any of the other apostels took any initative for a such building, and reason: "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen..." (2 Corinthians 4,18A)

 

[he-man]

Not even the apostles did away with money and they collected it from people who were joining the church. Two people even died when they failed to disclose truthfully how much they had. Paul was concerned to collect money for the Jerusalem Church which was going through trouble and received help from the Philippians in the form of monetary help while in prison. ?

What is the church? G1577 εκκλησίασμα εκκλησίαν assembly
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the [G1577 assembly] church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
The rich clergyman
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;

What did the followers of Jesus do?
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
What were the apostles instructed to do?
Mt 10:10 Do not collect upon the way neither two long belted tunics, nor buskins, nor hooked staffs, for the worker is eligible for his food.
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
So where does your wealth come from if you do not need money?
Isaiah 55:1-3 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. (2) Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance. (3) Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David.
What happened to those two who lied?
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What is the church? G1577 εκκλησίασμα εκκλησίαν assembly
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the [G1577 assembly] church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
The rich clergyman
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;

What did the followers of Jesus do?
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
What were the apostles instructed to do?
Mt 10:10 Do not collect upon the way neither two long belted tunics, nor buskins, nor hooked staffs, for the worker is eligible for his food.
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
So where does your wealth come from if you do not need money?
Isaiah 55:1-3 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. (2) Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance. (3) Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David.
What happened to those two who lied?
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

So what are you saying exactly?

 

[he-man]

So what are you saying exactly?

Huh? What is the church? an assembly that was in their house. No building or temple or man made structure. We do not need to contribute to a structure that is not necessary for the assembly to gather together. That is the problem. People think that everyone in the whole city should construct a facility and forget that it is much better to meet in small groups where everyone can contribute to the devotion. If you want to meet altogether with the entire community, then go to a park and that will suffice. When Jesus fed the multitudes they sat out in the open and did not require a building. The story of The rich clergyman notices that tithing, lay fees, and tenements are not required but instead lead to rejection of the truth.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;

So, I ask you, What did the followers of Jesus do?
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
What were the apostles instructed to do? They were instructed to work for their food and to not accept money from the other people in the congregation. Then no one could accuse them of charging a fee, tithes, or to give a LOVE offering to build a structure made with hands, or of abusing their power in the gospel.
Act 17:24　 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;　
So, I ask you, Why do you spend money for what is not bread?
Mt 10:10 Do not collect upon the way neither two long belted tunics, nor buskins, nor hooked staffs, for the worker is eligible for his food.
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
So where does your wealth come from if you do not need money?
Isaiah 55:1-3 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. (2) Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance. (3) Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David.
Else What happened to those two who lied will deprave you of entering the eternal assembly.
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira
Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Psalm 1:4-5 Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Why does a church at all require pasters, ministers, choir leader/music minster, etc not having a ordinary work and doing this work voluntary? Our church have never paid a single cent in salaries for work inside Norway. As far as possible wa also avoid doing this to missinaries sent from the church - we support their Christian-relateed work, not their personal needs, ass they normally have an income from a regular work However, in some countries a missionary will not be allowed having a regular work, and when this is the faced reality we also support their personal needs. No pre-agreed amount, our church divide what is received in gifts in the "blue box" (post #47) between those sent, according to the agreed plans and reported needs.

The Catholic Church works the other way. Missionaries are provided their personal needs very sparsely-a roof, a pillow, a place to eat and a place to pray. Sometimes we provide them money for food and water. Often, they get those on their own. And we don't pay them any salary. Our missionaries' regular work is their mission. Same with our priests in parishes serving the people. We don't require that our pastors fix garage doors for their family needs and wedge pastoring in between our familial obligations. That actually creates a conflict of interest-have you ever heard of a pastor of sheep that wasn't full time?

No church can exist absolutely without money in a society based on the use of money, but why does a church need a large budget - beautiful buildings and paid (sometimes decent paid) workers? We received the evangelium for free and we bring it further to the others for free because "everyone everyone should see/The Mighty Salvatior that's mine/Everyone, everyone should see". Further, as stated in an old Norwegian hymn: "No beautiful churches, no temples/But the homes thonged (of persons seaching and worshipping God)/No rituals, everyting plain and simple/But thie Spirit of God mighty visible". The LORD isn't at all dependent upon beautiful buildings, as we - the belivers and the children of God - are the house of God and the church, not the buildings!

Beautiful buildings for God's glory are one thing. Buying up basketball arenas and making them meeting places is another. Those who work for the Catholic Church (the laity) are paid for their work, but not usually very well-many of them have second jobs. Our pastors are given a salary to meet their personal needs-gasoline and car insurance, health insurance, and food, and clothing.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Huh? What is the church? an assembly that was in their house. No building or temple or man made structure. We do not need to contribute to a structure that is not necessary for the assembly to gather together. That is the problem. People think that everyone in the whole city should construct a facility and forget that it is much better to meet in small groups where everyone can contribute to the devotion. If you want to meet altogether with the entire community, then go to a park and that will suffice. When Jesus fed the multitudes they sat out in the open and did not require a building. The story of The rich clergyman notices that tithing, lay fees, and tenements are not required but instead lead to rejection of the truth.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;

So, I ask you, What did the followers of Jesus do?
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
What were the apostles instructed to do? They were instructed to work for their food and to not accept money from the other people in the congregation. Then no one could accuse them of charging a fee, tithes, or to give a LOVE offering to build a structure made with hands, or of abusing their power in the gospel.
Act 17:24　 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;　
So, I ask you, Why do you spend money for what is not bread?
Mt 10:10 Do not collect upon the way neither two long belted tunics, nor buskins, nor hooked staffs, for the worker is eligible for his food.
2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
So where does your wealth come from if you do not need money?
Isaiah 55:1-3 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price. (2) Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance. (3) Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— The sure mercies of David.
Else What happened to those two who lied will deprave you of entering the eternal assembly.
Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira
Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Psalm 1:4-5 Not so the wicked! They are like chaff that the wind blows away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

So your argument is that Christians shouldn't have buildings set aside for the gathering of the community in liturgy, baptisms, feasts, weddings and other things like charitable aid? I get your motives but I think they aren't particularly thought out especially when we consider that Christ and his disciples participated in the Temple system of Jerusalem which was controlled by the Priests, they also participated in the synagouge system using it to their advantage when they could. No one believes that a Church building is necessary in order to live a Christian life, rather it is a luxury we have as a result of freedom of worship that the Apostles didn't have. The Apostles gathered in homes because it was advantageous, because the community was small, because Christianity had yet to balloon to the size it would. Visible church structures are a handy referent for people to come to, for the non Christian and the Christian. There is simply no good argument against them except for a tyrannical insistence we live exactly as the Apostles did, which no one does. The Apostles essentially lived in communal lifestyle, members of the Church gave up their wealth and property and handed it to the Apostles, no one does that today without being treated with extreme suspicion.

This self righteous attitude of not having buildings but giving everything to the poor is just moral preening when physical church buildings serve a good purpose as an aid to worship and liturgy. Worship is a good thing, it's as good as giving to the poor and both are necessary, one is not more valuable than the other. A building dedicated to that purpose is a good thing. It is not automatically evil. If having a building set aside for worship is somehow sinful since we are not giving the money we could have spent to the poor, what then of your own life? Do you feel guilty every time you indulge? What about that book that could have gone to the poor? What about that netflix subscription? What about that videogame? What about that house? What about those nice clothes? What about everything? The only people capable of this sort of moral exhortation are desert because they give up everything and live consistently, yet not even they would criticise the building of a church.

 

[ViaCrucis]

ONE man is Jesus. Operate not on money. But on the Holy Spirit.

False dichotomy, also, I can't think of a single place in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit is going to pay the utilities bill.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[he-man]

Our pastors are given a salary to meet their personal needs-gasoline and car insurance, health insurance, and food, and clothing.

You skipped part of my post: 2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
The story of The rich clergyman notices that tithing, lay fees, and tenements are not required but instead lead to rejection of the truth.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;
Act 17:24　 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;　

 

[he-man]

So your argument is that Christians shouldn't have buildings set aside for the gathering of the community in liturgy, baptisms, feasts, weddings and other things like charitable aid?

You skipped part of my post: 2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
The story of The rich clergyman notices that tithing, lay fees, and tenements are not required but instead lead to rejection of the truth.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;
Act 17:24　 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;　

A building dedicated to that purpose is a good thing. It is not automatically evil. If having a building set aside for worship is somehow sinful since we are not giving the money we could have spent to the poor, what then of your own life?

Huh? Who pays the rent, mortgage, upkeep, groundskeeper, Water, Gas, Electricity, Repairs, Automobile, insurance, house, for your so-called preacher? Have you read where the five thousand were when they were fed?
John 6:10　 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.　

So your argument is that Christians shouldn't have buildings set aside for the gathering of the community in liturgy, baptisms, feasts, weddings and other things like charitable aid? There is simply no good argument against them except for a tyrannical insistence we live exactly as the Apostles did, which no one does. The Apostles essentially lived in communal lifestyle, members of the Church gave up their wealth and property and handed it to the Apostles, no one does that today without being treated with extreme suspicion.
A building dedicated to that purpose is a good thing. It is not automatically evil. If having a building set aside for worship is somehow sinful since we are not giving the money we could have spent to the poor, what then of your own life? .

Do you not know 1Co_3:16　 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
We therefore do not meet in buildings reserved just for worship. We should worship daily, not just on a Sunday or Wednesday. We meet in each others homes once a week to break bread and discuss the Scriptures. NO Church building! No paid preachers, for we are all commanded to preach the word of God daily. Act_5:42　 And daily in the [public part] of the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
And daily in the temple, and in every house,.... Every day, with great constancy and assiduity, both publicly and privately; in the temple, the place of public worship, where the Jews resorted on that account; and in each of their private houses, as often as they had opportunity:[GILL]
Act_24:12　 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
1Co_9:14　 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live by the gospel.
1Co_9:18　 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may preach the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

False dichotomy, also, I can't think of a single place in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit is going to pay the utilities bill.

-CryptoLutheran

The Holy Spirit can do much much more than utility bills, provided He is believed in and followed. Give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's. Faith in money never brought any good.

 

[Root of Jesse]

You skipped part of my post: 2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
The story of The rich clergyman notices that tithing, lay fees, and tenements are not required but instead lead to rejection of the truth.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great (κτήματα) possessions. G2933 κτήματα κτήση temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like;
Act 17:24　 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;　

Things were a little different back then, no? And it's different for an itinerant preacher like Paul. When we have itinerant preachers in parish, they work for their living. We give them money as a donation, but their work is to preach.
Secondly, your piece about the rich clergyman is not Scripture, it's your opinion. Also, your bolding is your opinion.

Regarding Acts 17, did not God request a temple to be built by Solomon? And then when that was destroyed, another to be built? Also, it's a speech to the Greeks who believed in idols and built temples to house them, not to Christians who need a place to worship.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Holy Spirit can do much much more than utility bills, provided He is believed in and followed. Give to Caesar what's Caesar's and to God what's God's. Faith in money never brought any good.

So if the Holy Spirit moves me to give money to my Church, and it goes to support the pastor, pay the utilities and fix the roof, that's a bad thing?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

So if the Holy Spirit moves me to give money to my Church, and it goes to support the pastor, pay the utilities and fix the roof, that's a bad thing?

The Holy Spirit is concerned with the spiritual. Give to God what's God's. The church is not necessarily in line with that, wanting your money

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I was using sarcasm--something you obviously missed. Let's put it like this. You must feel so special that God has spoken to you about how to finance His Church. And we all should feel blessed that you have deigned to speak to us, after you have spoken to God.



Great!! But tell us please, how do these poor people who live in a civilization that uses money find the preaching of the Word? How do the pastors, ministers, choir leader/music minister live if they don't receive any money? We can't all build a yurt, you know.

I live in a monastery, but even that requires money. The internet, for instance, may be free, but one has to gain access to it, and that costs that evil money that you are so upset that people give to the Church. Tell you what. Send ME all of your money, whatever you use to fund your ministry, and I will tell Jesus that you did it right!

I understand. But God's true work needs not money. Because His Kingdom isn't of this world. Money operation is in this realm, which is vain, corruptible. You give money, tomorrow they're thirsty of it again even more. It's never enough. If money stops, then such religion stops. You give living water that you became an endless and completely free source of, then they thirst no more and become a new source of it by themselves. It's inside in the hearts. Freely received, freely give. It's God's gift.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Holy Spirit is concerned with the spiritual. Give to God what's God's. The church is not necessarily in line with that, wanting your money

So the Holy Spirit doesn't move people to be generous to others? Also, by the way, it's all God's, we're just the stewards. My Church, the Catholic Church, isn't really very interested in money, as in wanting it. Mostly, she needs money to operate.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I understand. But God's true work needs not money. Because His Kingdom isn't of this world. Money operation is in this realm, which is vain, corruptible. You give money, tomorrow they're thirsty of it again even more. It's never enough. If money stops, then such religion stops. You give living water that you became an endless and completely free source of, then they thirst no more and become a new source of it by themselves. It's inside in the hearts. Freely received, freely give. It's God's gift.

I understand that you want everybody to live as pure a life as you, totally without money, and giving freely of the Word. It can't be done by everybody. Not even me, poor monk and worm that I am.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I understand that you want everybody to live as pure a life as you, totally without money, and giving freely of the Word. It can't be done by everybody. Not even me, poor monk and worm that I am.

Pure life is Jesus. If you give Jesus to people, then it's pure. He's salvation. He's bigger than money. He's bigger than this world. Kingdom is in souls.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Pure life is Jesus. If you give Jesus to people, then it's pure. He's salvation. He's bigger than money. He's bigger than this world. Kingdom is in souls.

Thank you for that. How do you get by in your yurt?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

So the Holy Spirit doesn't move people to be generous to others? Also, by the way, it's all God's, we're just the stewards. My Church, the Catholic Church, isn't really very interested in money, as in wanting it. Mostly, she needs money to operate.

It's responsibility of every soul to do God's work. If we delegate it to a hireling "church" that needs money to operate, then we're evading what we ought to be doing. But it's wrong. You can't buy your way out of true life with Jesus.