Churches operating on money is wrong

ChristianFromKazakhstan

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2016
1,585
575
45
ALMATY
✟29,800.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Dear brothers and sisters! I'm going away on vacation, so I'll stop posting at CF for a while.

THANK YOU for your time and love to respond to my struggles expressed here. If I said something wrong, please forgive me. I know I have so much to understand and to learn. Thank you for your help and patience in this process.

I heard all of your posts and arguments, and took heed. I need to study the Bible more in a humble and open spirit with guidance from the Holy Spirit.

May you all be blessed! Jesus is Lord.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Root of Jesse
Upvote 0

lsume

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2017
1,491
696
70
Florida
✟417,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How very true about people thinking that God's Church is a building. However, until one has gone through The Visitation and has their eyes and ears opened, no one understand God's Word. There is much in The Bible about Visitation (KJV).

Acts.7

  1. [48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
 
Upvote 0

Honoluluwindow

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
441
157
59
Hawaii
✟17,283.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
what bible verses are you referring to?
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭16:1-2‬ ‭ASV‬‬
1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Redeem man-made temples?
God already holds the titles on temples to him, he doesn't need to redeem them. "Redeem" is a translation of a Greek term meaning to purchase or take over. Just as God redeemed the Hebrews from the Pharaoh, Christ redeemed us from Satan, the prince of this world.
 
Upvote 0

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭16:1-2‬ ‭ASV‬‬
1 Corinthians 16:1-2; Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.

You should study the context of that scripture. That was a reference to a special collection for the church in Jerusalem that was experiencing a famine. It was a special circumstance, Paul had zero handling of the money and this is referenced in Romans 15.
 
Upvote 0

Honoluluwindow

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2016
441
157
59
Hawaii
✟17,283.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You should study the context of that scripture. That was a reference to a special collection for the church in Jerusalem that was experiencing a famine. It was a special circumstance, Paul had zero handling of the money and this is referenced in Romans 15.
That's your opinion. Just like it's your opinion that you can apply the levitival system of giving to those under the law of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

PollyJetix

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2017
1,128
1,241
Virginia
✟42,933.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How very true about people thinking that God's Church is a building. However, until one has gone through The Visitation and has their eyes and ears opened, no one understand God's Word. There is much in The Bible about Visitation (KJV).

Acts.7

  1. [48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Sir, when you want to reply to a post, click on reply under it, and don't then hit the red "Post Reply" button right away.
First, scroll to the bottom of the post you are quoting from, and type in your reply. Then hit the "Post Reply" button.
It will keep you from making two posts instead of one.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My view of modern churches is, that they have an $X monthly minimum budget to operate. In USA it can be thousands of dollars, in Kazakhstan - hundreds. Still, they need money-money-money (which makes the world go round). If they do not receive $X or more every month, they're in big trouble, they can get into debt and then go bankrupt. Constant need of money. They can't really earn money today like in the old days, when churches owned land, peasants, manufacturing facilities etc. Today, they're mostly stripped of those feudalist or capitalist privileges and can only collect donations. Churches on odd occasions rent out their premises, but that's not their main business and doesn't cover $X.

I see it as a big problem. Because church as organization isn't forced by serving Jesus anymore, but by this constant "Damoclis gladius" hanging over their heads... Constantly finding $X this way or another to survive, turning them into a parasite of society... It's very bad, I think. Very bad. Very corrupting.

What do you think?

How much does it cost to meet in a home? The cost of an extra fan or running an A/C unit for a few hours in the summer. The cost of a few extra toilet flushes? The cost of food, maybe, when everyone who attends has to eat anyway?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2Timothy2:15

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2016
2,226
1,227
CA
✟78,248.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's your opinion. Just like it's your opinion that you can apply the levitival system of giving to those under the law of Christ.

No, that is not my opinion, it is right there in scripture.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Now concerning the collection for the saints - The use of the article here shows that he had mentioned it to them before, and that it was a subject which they would readily understand. It was not new to them, but it was needful only to give some instructions in regard to the manner in which it should be done, and not in regard to the occasion for the collection, or the duty of making it. Accordingly, all his instructions relate simply to the manner in which the collection should be made. The word rendered "collection" (λογία logia) does not occur anywhere else in the New Testament, and is not found in the classic writers. It is from λέγω legō, to collect, and, undoubtedly, here refers to a contribution, or collection of money for a charitable purpose. The word "saints" (ἁγίους hagious) here refers, doubtless, to "Christians;" to the persecuted Christians in Judea. There were many there; and they were generally poor, and exposed to various trials. In regard to the meaning of this word, and the circumstances and occasion of this collection; see the notes on Romans 15:25-26.

Expositor's Greek Testament
1 Corinthians 16:1-4. § 57. CONCERNING THE COLLECTION. During his Third Missionary Journey P. was collecting money for the relief of the Christian poor in Jerusalem. Two chaps. in the middle of 2 Cor. are devoted to this business, which, as it seems, had moved slowly in the interval between the two Epp. The collection had been set on foot some time ago in Galatia (1 Corinthians 16:1); in Macedonia it had been warmly taken up (2 Corinthians 8 f.); from Acts 20:4 we learn that “Asians” also (from Ephesus and the neighbourhood) accompanied P. in the deputation which conveyed the Gentile offering to the mother Church. A little later, in writing to Rome (1 Corinthians 15:25-32), the Ap. refers to the collection, with great satisfaction, as completed. Every province of the Pauline mission appears to have aided in this charity, which, while it relieved a distressing need, was prompted also by Paul’s warm love for his people (Romans 9:3), and by his desire to knit together the Gentile and Jewish sections of the Church, and to prove to the latter the true faith and brotherhood of the converts from heathenism (2 Corinthians 9:11-14). P. had taken part in a similar relief sent from Antioch many years before (Acts 11 f.); and in the Conference of Jerus., when the direction of the Gentile mission was committed to him, the heads of the Judæan Church laid on him the injunction to “remember the poor” (Galatians 2:10). Foreign Jews were accustomed, as an act of piety, to replenish the poorfunds of the mother city. The Christian community of Jerus. suffered from chronic poverty. With little natural or commercial wealth, the city lived mainly upon its religious character—on the attractions of the Temple and the Feasts thronged by Jews from the whole world; and the Nazarenes, while suffering from the intense bigotry of their compatriots in other ways, would find it esp. difficult to participate in employments connected with religion. 1 Thessalonians 2:14 intimates that the Judæan Churches had recently undergone severe persecution.

Is that what you are being taught? No, you are being taught this is why they take weekly tithe or offerings. But your offering is not going to some poor group is it.
 
Upvote 0

PaaKne

Active Member
Mar 11, 2017
127
113
Norway
✟26,254.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How much does it cost to meet in a home? The cost of an extra fan or running an A/C unit for a few hours in the summer. The cost of a few extra toilet flushes? The cost of food, maybe, when everyone who attends has to eat anyway?

Let's take that compared to the local church my parents and I belong to - not meeting in homes any more, but in a special building, as quite a few Norwegian Christian homes can accomodate 60-120 people..

Extra fan or AC: Don't exist. Should a day in summer be to hot, we open the doors and windows - or meet outside.

Extra heating: In a home nothing, as the home nead to be heated anyway, and the more heatiing from people, the less from the wood stove or electricity. In our building/church 2-6 cubic feet of suitable wood for a typical Sunday during 2/3 of the year. Typical price rooted equal to 0.18-0.25 USD /cubic foot (when not getting it for free), all cutting done voluntary by those gathering together

Toilet: About 1 USD pr 200 flushes.

Food: Normally not needed as we gather togheter for food for ours souls, not for our bodies. When needed given from those caring for the gatherings. (Only God knows how many gallons of coffee/tea/limonade, number of raisin buns, gallons of waffle batter, gallons of soup and number of sandwiches given from those caring for that. The chuch have asket for anything, and have never been in shortage, but quite often have to return 10-20 % of that just appearing in the kichen togehter with the plates/bowls. )

You dont need any hugh budget for that (neighter for keeping a building built voluntary, materieals paid (or given) when built).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

lsume

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2017
1,491
696
70
Florida
✟417,518.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sir, when you want to reply to a post, click on reply under it, and don't then hit the red "Post Reply" button right away.
First, scroll to the bottom of the post you are quoting from, and type in your reply. Then hit the "Post Reply" button.
It will keep you from making two posts instead of one.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I see it as a big problem. Because church as organization isn't forced by serving Jesus anymore, but by this constant "Damoclis gladius" hanging over their heads... Constantly finding $X this way or another to survive, turning them into a parasite of society... It's very bad, I think. Very bad. Very corrupting.

What do you think?

I think that we are really blessed to find the ONE man in all of the world that is wiser than all the apostles, all the popes, patriarchs, and church leaders that can have such insight into God's plan of how churches are supposed to operate, and operate without some form of financial support (in this fallen and pecuniary civilization). Tell us, from your mountain of wisdom in Kazakhstan, how we can do this?

Or, if you are just complaining, but have no solution, then pray, and don't complain.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ChristianFromKazakhstan

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2016
1,585
575
45
ALMATY
✟29,800.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think that we are really blessed to find the ONE man in all of the world that is wiser than all the apostles, all the popes, patriarchs, and church leaders that can have such insight into God's plan of how churches are supposed to operate, and operate without some form of financial support (in this fallen and pecuniary civilization). Tell us, from your mountain of wisdom in Kazakhstan, how we can do this?

Or, if you are just complaining, but have no solution, then pray, and don't complain.

ONE man is Jesus. Operate not on money. But on the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I was using sarcasm--something you obviously missed. Let's put it like this. You must feel so special that God has spoken to you about how to finance His Church. And we all should feel blessed that you have deigned to speak to us, after you have spoken to God.

ONE man is Jesus. Operate not on money. But on the Holy Spirit.

Great!! But tell us please, how do these poor people who live in a civilization that uses money find the preaching of the Word? How do the pastors, ministers, choir leader/music minister live if they don't receive any money? We can't all build a yurt, you know.

I live in a monastery, but even that requires money. The internet, for instance, may be free, but one has to gain access to it, and that costs that evil money that you are so upset that people give to the Church. Tell you what. Send ME all of your money, whatever you use to fund your ministry, and I will tell Jesus that you did it right!
 
Upvote 0

PaaKne

Active Member
Mar 11, 2017
127
113
Norway
✟26,254.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
.... Great!! But tell us please, how do these poor people who live in a civilization that uses money find the preaching of the Word? How do the pastors, ministers, choir leader/music minister live if they don't receive any money? We can't all build a yurt, you know.....

Why does a church at all require pasters, ministers, choir leader/music minster, etc not having a ordinary work and doing this work voluntary? Our church have never paid a single cent in salaries for work inside Norway. As far as possible wa also avoid doing this to missinaries sent from the church - we support their Christian-relateed work, not their personal needs, ass they normally have an income from a regular work However, in some countries a missionary will not be allowed having a regular work, and when this is the faced reality we also support their personal needs. No pre-agreed amount, our church divide what is received in gifts in the "blue box" (post #47) between those sent, according to the agreed plans and reported needs.

No church can exist absolutely without money in a society based on the use of money, but why does a church need a large budget - beautiful buildings and paid (sometimes decent paid) workers? We received the evangelium for free and we bring it further to the others for free because "everyone everyone should see/The Mighty Salvatior that's mine/Everyone, everyone should see". Further, as stated in an old Norwegian hymn: "No beautiful churches, no temples/But the homes thonged (of persons seaching and worshipping God)/No rituals, everyting plain and simple/But thie Spirit of God mighty visible". The LORD isn't at all dependent upon beautiful buildings, as we - the belivers and the children of God - are the house of God and the church, not the buildings!
 
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
72
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟294,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
and paid (sometimes decent paid) workers?

Deuteronomy 25:4 “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.” And if you want good help--an accountant that can keep the book straight, for instance, then you have to pay him, a lot.

but why does a church need a large budget - beautiful buildings

You don't believe that God's house should be beautiful? It is, after all, the throne room of the King! Take a look at the Temple--or the Tent of Meeting. They were fantastically beautiful! Should I continue? Is heaven just going to be a plain wooden hut miles long, too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter? You know better. If God can build great walls with twelve foundations made from precious and semi-precious stones, with streets of gold, etc, then the least you can do is have some icons, pretty wood carving, and so on.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

PaaKne

Active Member
Mar 11, 2017
127
113
Norway
✟26,254.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Deuteronomy 25:4 “Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.” And if you want good help--an accountant that can keep the book straight, for instance, then you have to pay him, a lot...

Agree, but what NOT taken into accout here: WHY does the church need at all require pasters, ministers, choir leader/music minster, etc not having a ordinary work and doing the work for God voluntary because they consider this work to be important.

You don't believe that God's house should be beautiful?
It is, after all, the throne room of the King! Take a look at the Temple--or the Tent of Meeting. They were fantastically beautiful! Should I continue? Is heaven just going to be a plain wooden hut miles long, too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter? You know better. If God can build great walls with twelve foundations made from precious and semi-precious stones, with streets of gold, etc, then the least you can do is have some icons, pretty wood carving, and so on.

Not at all - I belive a DEAD building to be functional for his LIVING church of re-born people. The King's throne is in heaven and we a) have never been asked copying it, and b) don't have a chance copying it. The temple reflected God's mightyness before He sent Jesus, His Son and our Savior, not for showing anyting today when we have seen Jesus. Heaven is for sure not going to be simple wooden huts, but the Christians are not in heaven yet.

Our church have zero icons, zero wood carvings and zero pictures (unless for "pictures" of glass containing a word from scripture each for reminding of them + a cross attached to the pulpit, none of these really important).Using the available money for what Christ spesfically asked to be done - Matthew 28, 18-20 - is more important than using those money for what Christ not asked to be done.

EDIT:
Just two pictures (saying more than 1000 words...) to explain what I'm talking about. These pictures are not from the church we are belonging to, but a church acting the same way, like quite a few of the Norwegian churches outside DNK and organizations like DELK (Lutheran), DFEF (pentecostal), MNA (methodists) etc.
Exterior: http://ap.mnocdn.no/images/46f3e33b-4a56-4325-b6fc-51a523a515bb?fit=crop&q=80&w=2048
Interiior: http://ap.mnocdn.no/images/5b28a908-de6a-45b6-8c66-50571132fba8?fit=crop&q=80&w=2048
No money wasted (assuming the two paintings here are gifts received - personally I would preferred them on the oppsite wall to avoid "disturbing" during the service) , nothing important for the function and work missed...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0