Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[razzelflabben]

This has gone to the windless ..... like a school yard fight of boasting ...

lol this is what I have been telling you for a long time now...just because your ego was bruised doesn't mean you have to try to belittle others by saying what they are saying and pretend they didn't say it.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, you are right. Perhaps I should begin a different thread to continue the current discussion with razzelflabben. If she is willing, that is.

if you think there is something you can teach me please do....but being contradictory of your own words and repeating what I said isn't helping your case.

 

[razzelflabben]

Here is the problem...

Razzelflabben is posting truths, but that are not truth for a one size fits all situation.

She apparently fails to see that there are also other sides, also needed to the truth. I am not trying to nullify what she posts (as far as the passages). I am trying to say that we need to be discerning and thinking with the Word, for not every situation will require the same passages as its answer.

She broad brushed "rejoicing with others" without knowing its context. And, then she argues that I do not understand. Then tears me down with her words..

Lol...now, back up just a moment. The discussion went as follows...I spoke about rejoicing with those that rejoice and mourning with those that mourn and you claimed that was only for the local church body or else all we would get done is mourn. I challenged that idea by pointing out to you that even James says that we can rejoice in the midst of grieving. You objected to that because the context was not "the church body but the individual" you know, the individual was what we were talking about...how is it possible for us to mourn with all that mourn while rejoicing with all who rejoice. and for this, you accused me of being a false teacher and now trying to fit one scripture into all situations or some such non sense. In context (something that you have demonstrated means nothing to you) I am right on the money. Scripture says we can rejoice and mourn at the same time. this is because and I assumed you knew this but maybe you haven't studied enough to know that joy or rejoicing does not mean being happy. They are two different words with two different meanings and as demonstrated to you (sorry to bruise your ego again) joy and mourning are able to coexist.

She fails to understand that Christianity is not like Law. That a given situation may require a different response, other than a.. one and the same for all. That is why some are to turn the other cheek, when in another given situation, they were required by God to fight to defend their family's lives.

lol again I laugh since I was the one who pointed out to you and others here that the turning the other cheek passage was not talking about those life threatening situations the thread is suppose to be addressing. IOW's a different passage than what the OP is asking for. You know, the appropriate passage for the situation in question....lol your accusations remind me of those that Satan takes before the throne of God.

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:


2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.​

Its not the one same way for all situations!

Yet, its always to be one way for a specific kind of situation!

I am also the one who said that from the standpoint of scripture when we are in such a situation as the OP is asking about we need to pray to God for wisdom on how to proceed and then trust that wisdom no matter what it is and rest in that....sounds to me that you don't know what you are saying or at least who you are talking about.

We must be knowing the different situations and follow through to please God.

She rejects the other situations I presented and what is called for by the Word of God. It appears she wants her "feel good emotionally" type of Christianity... I have known believers like that.

lol what situations would that be given what I really did say? Please be specific...what situation is governed differently than the above about turning the other cheek not applying to lethal situations and pray for wisdom when in lethal situations and allow God to give you the answer that fits the specific situation...I am really curious what specific situation is not addressed by what I said.

God's Word is not telling us a night time lullaby. He is telling us reality. He may bless some with the glories of the honeymoon that never ends, and will at another time, supply the grace to be courageous in time of needing to defend yourself and others.

Christianity is not a one way to be for everything, way of life. It requires knowledge and making choices that fit each given situation

Choices that scripture tells us are to be made in the wisdom of God...iow's James 1:5-7. You might want to try it, it certainly would stop you from falsely accusing me and refusing to hear what I am saying if you asked God for wisdom in the matter.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is not all there is!

"In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers
and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you
received from us." 2 Thes 3:6​

I guess I am sinning by responding to you since you seem to be here out of idleness and offer only disruptive teaching. I guess tonight I should repent then keep away from you for the sin you are bringing to this thread. Thank you for pointing out my sin as it applies to your sin.

 

[razzelflabben]

Salvation has a two fold in nature.

One is unconditional and eternal. Believing in Christ.

The other.. is becoming saved (by means of grace and truth) from the evils we must face in this world.

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may
have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so
that your faith may be proven genuine—of greater worth than
gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in
praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though
you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do
not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an
inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end
result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Pet 1:6-9)​

Genuine faith = sound doctrinal intake and filling of the Spirit. Saved by works (from evil).

False doctrine produces an artificial faith! Fails in our works saving us. Not saved by works!

The works that save us saves us from the evils of this present world, as we become walking examples of a transformed mind that walks in truth that overcomes the world.

When we find ourselves doing that? God considers our works as "gold, silver, and precious stones." They will be tested by fire in our evaluation by the Lord. Gold, silver, and precious stones will not perish by fire.

The precious metals may melt though.

And, what becomes of those melted precious metals and precious stones? They that survive the Lord's testing fire? I believe that is melted will be poured into a Divine mold designed by the Lord. That mold opens after cooling and reveals "Our Crown" that will glorify the Lord forever! "Gold, silver, and precious stones!"

But? For those who insist upon doing works run by their feelings and emotions? Those works God calls "wood, hay, and stubble." These will be utterly destroyed in the Lord's testing fire.

There will be no eternal rewards for that "wood" kind of believer. Yet, it says that their souls remain saved from the Lake of Fire.

The "wood heads" works did not save them from evil in this world. They were never saved from evil by their works in this world, These believers failed to glorify Christ in time. They may have produced many humanly works and usually are seen as quite proud of what they thought they were doing concerning their faith.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,which is Jesus Christ. (eternal salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15
​

Believers with dead works will be saved. Saved like a man running from a burning house with no clothes on his back! But, it says? He will be saved.

Go argue with the Word. I have no time to defend the obvious.

Good works that His word says He created for us specifically...meaning not everyone has to bow to you and your ideas but rather to Christ and His authority over them. I sure wish you could grasp this concept before you falsely accuse people of things they never said nor did. Before you repeat what they said then mock them for not knowing what they said was right in the first place...ah well, sin runs deal and crucifying self is a slow painful death I guess that is why Love is patient and enduring, so that those of us who are being sinned against can endure in Love.

 

[Buzz_B]

if you believe in the indwelling HS then you are actually agreeing with what I said by disagreeing and contradicting yourself which is very confusing. Why would you agree with me by claiming to disagree then contradict yourself? How does that equal effective communication? Then turning to what sounds like gibberish to emphasize your point? so now, your lack of understanding is my lack of learning...carry on exactly what I said...and....I have done extensive study in how sin affects us in fact, my current study is how Love or better said, the power of Love transforms us and it is a very interesting study. I suggest that you do just such a study so that you can understand what you apparently don't understanding about sin. iow's what you are saying is what my husband and I have said for eons now, that we don't have to follow the HS even when He is ministering to us....iow's "don't quench the Spirit".

So I'm still waiting for you to teach me something I don't already know from a careful, HS powered study of the word of God.

I can understand why you feel like I am contradicting myself. You do not yet understand what I am telling you to be able to know if I am. That is quite normal.

razzleflaben, Where did sin enter? Without adding to Paul's words at Romans 5:12, tell me where he said sin entered so that it could exert an influence over each of us and thus infect us with unholiness?

You don't happen to live in Germany, do you? You do so very much remind me of a woman I enjoyed conversing with on another Bible forum.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why do you feel that the Cross can not really save us?

That according to your thinking? We must end up saving ourselves in the end?

In the mean time.... God can not contradict Himself.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down
from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who
sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that
I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise
them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

That means? If anyone looses their salvation? Its Jesus who failed to do the Father's will! For its the Father's will that Jesus lose none of all the Father gives Him.

And, why would an omniscient God, who knows all things? Break the Son's heart by giving the Son a gift that the Father knows will be lost eventually?

And... no. Believers who produce dead works of wood, hay, and stubble? (false faith) Will lose eternal rewards.(a special sharing in eternal life) Not their salvation.

To think that once someone is saved, and that they can lose their salvation? Is to say that God never saves anyone! That they are not really saved until that person can save himself.

That is mocking the infallible competence of God to save.

wow so little understanding of context here it hurts but alas this too is off topic and I think it is time for the prideful arrogant false accusations of my character and understanding to stop as per God's commands and to get back to topic.

 

[razzelflabben]

Take your time.

God slapped me a moment ago and told me why the organized churches do such a poor job of teaching. He told me that it is because they commercialize the word of God so that it sells rather than following the patterns lain forth by Christ. And as they rate the word in the form of their doctrines as a product to sell, they are unlikely to want to root out the flaws in their product (their doctrines) so long as they achieve good sales with them, increasing the incoming contributions with which they line their pockets. LOL.

shall I play the game another poster did and call you a false teacher and ask you if you heard God's audible voice....lol isn't this fun when we are consistent rather than obedience?

 

[razzelflabben]

I visited his website a few times in the past. That began just after I first began posting on this forum and I have gone back a few times even copying things to my desktop. It is my evaluation of what he teaches that he has some good teachings and some bad teaches. He does not differ a whole lot from most others. Perhaps he will grow in knowledge and understanding more yet. I do not know. But for now he is but the common in teachings.

I was introduced to a site by a guy from England which does far better but cannot recall the name at the moment. I have some of its books on my computer but am too tired right now to pull them up. The guy's name in England is Paul. I have his personal email address to keep in touch with him. He really impressed me with his sound use of logic and excellent retention and pulling in of the Bible-wide context on various subjects. I have ate, drank and slept Bible study for so very long now that when subjects are brought up verses start coming to mind from the beginning to the end of the Bible and so I really enjoyed working with Paul. I don't call repeated rehearsing of doctrines Bible study and neither does he. What we call study is deliberately challenging our own ideas to find every fault against repeated Bible-wide reviews, deliberately looking for even the smallest text which might indicate something different. That is how one follows the counsel of Proverbs 2:1-5

lol what a load of disagreement from your posts to me.

 

[Buzz_B]

razzelflabben, being as I seemed to have missed you for the moment, I will speak things here which may help you to see what I see in the Scriptures.

If sin never "entered into the world" as Romans 5:12 says, and thus was never in a position among mankind to "spread" its infection, the entire world be holy, right?

Why was it that God had that one temple at a time in Israel? It was because the world in which Israel lived was unholy and God needed a holy place for his Spirit to dwell that man could have access to it.

What most seem to be failing to realize is that if Adam had not sinned the entire world and the heavens combined would be God's temple per Isaiah 66:1. The entire earth would have been holy and able to be a part of God's temple. And that is the Scriptural correct base we must build our understanding from up off of.

You see, if you actually study the word you discover that prayer is a place of dwelling in the presence of God. But as we see in the other passages, the place of prayer, also known as the temple is within us as well as within the body. Any other teaching is false teaching. The HOLY SPIRIT is our guarantee of salvation and without it there is not guarantee which is why the teaching of the indwelling HS is such an important teaching in the church and one that is often, as you are trying to do here, missing. [?QUOTE]You say, “You see, if you actually study the word you discover that prayer is a place of dwelling in the presence of God.”

Yes, not because your personal body of flesh is God's temple but because once in Christ who is the only true temple, our individual spirits are reconnected with God's spirit everywhere we go. And the heavens are God's throne while the earth is his footstool. So while connected to his Spirit via Christ, matter not where we go in this earth we kneel on God's footstool in the presence of God's throne:

Psalms 99:5 “Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.”

Isaiah 66:1 “Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?”

Your personal body of flesh yet awaits its redemption and God does not have literal residence in anything not yet redeemed to holiness. We are yet purging our bodies of sin and all unholiness looking forward to the day where like Christ's body we can have God resident in our selves and make no mistake about it, the responsibility falls upon us because God is willing and does help us to do the job: 2 Corinthians 7:1 “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

Jesus also laid that responsibility squarely on the Pharisees: Matthew 23:26 “Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.”

James shows us that cleansing our hands, purifying our hearts, and ceasing to be double-mined as our responsibility is how we show humility: James 4:8-10
8 “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

 

[razzelflabben]

I can understand why you feel like I am contradicting myself. You do not yet understand what I am telling you to be able to know if I am. That is quite normal.

I said that there were different meanings to the word temple and the only way to know which was being talked about was context. You said no I was wrong that there was only one temple by siting several different temples and meaning for temple...that isn't just what seems like a contradiction, it is a contradiction. Now you can fix your contradiction or hold to it but holding to it makes you sound insane and changing it means you agree with me which your posts suggest you are too proud to do, so we are at an impasse it would seem. One in which your pride is your enemy.

razzleflaben, Where did sin enter? Without adding to Paul's words at Romans 5:12, tell me where he said sin entered so that it could exert an influence over each of us and thus infect us with unholiness?

now why would you ask me to defend something I did NOT say? That would be insanity to try to answer something that is contrary to what I said or believe.

You don't happen to live in Germany, do you? You do so very much remind me of a woman I enjoyed conversing with on another Bible forum.

I feel sorry for that woman if your conversations with her are as your latest with me where you reinvent and do all kinds of other non sense to try to argue something you can't argue.

 

[razzelflabben]

razzelflabben, being as I seemed to have missed you for the moment, I will speak things here which may help you to see what I see in the Scriptures.

If sin never "entered into the world" as Romans 5:12 says, and thus was never in a position among mankind to "spread" its infection, the entire world be holy, right?

duh... I mean, if sin didn't enter the world there would be no sin in the world is like the most incredible duh moment I have seen on the forums in a long time.

Why was it that God had that one temple at a time in Israel? It was because the world in which Israel lived was unholy and God needed a holy place for his Spirit to dwell that man could have access to it.

again, nothing in that questions anything I really did say....God's word says that righteousness cannot reside with unrighteousness...where is all the amazing stuff you are supposedly teaching me that I have wrong? Why are you so stuck on milk you can't look at meat?

What most seem to be failing to realize is that if Adam had not sinned the entire world and the heavens combined would be God's temple per Isaiah 66:1. The entire earth would have been holy and able to be a part of God's temple. And that is the Scriptural correct base we must build our understanding from up off of.

and again you add a new definition for temple when you argued there was only one understanding while evidencing only one understanding by showing several...really, that is not speaking the truth of God for God is NOT the author of confusion.

 

[Buzz_B]

shall I play the game another poster did and call you a false teacher and ask you if you heard God's audible voice....lol isn't this fun when we are consistent rather than obedience?

Arrogant people do ask such things. We just have to forgive them and look past their expressions of resentment and hatred. But in my case if I chose to answer them I would have to tell the truth. And that truth is yes, God does speak with me. Not only that he reveals things to me in dreams. I was with a group of people regularly leading up to September 1, 2001 and the World Trade Center Terrorist Attack. I knew a few weeks in advance that a major event was going to occur in the USA which would shake the world. God revealed it in two different dreams. I did not know exactly which buildings it would be be but I knew the big shakeup was coming. Then in around 2009/2010 I was involved in an online discussion of prophecy and some of the posters were speculating what events were yet to occur with some saying we were right there and expected it immediately within mere months. But God placed it in my heart and mind to tell them, 'No, it will not come before we see major events take place in Syria and in 2017 we will see the signs speed up as the doorway to the final years. And not one thing I have ever been told has proved untrue. If I am unsure of something I will not speak it.

I figure there is good reason Satan sought so hard to kill me from the day I was born. I am only really now beginning to more fully understand what God has groomed me for. You may take it any way you wish. That is what people do, anyway.

 

[Buzz_B]

I said that there were different meanings to the word temple and the only way to know which was being talked about was context. You said no I was wrong that there was only one temple by siting several different temples and meaning for temple...that isn't just what seems like a contradiction, it is a contradiction. Now you can fix your contradiction or hold to it but holding to it makes you sound insane and changing it means you agree with me which your posts suggest you are too proud to do, so we are at an impasse it would seem. One in which your pride is your enemy. now why would you ask me to defend something I did NOT say? That would be insanity to try to answer something that is contrary to what I said or believe. I feel sorry for that woman if your conversations with her are as your latest with me where you reinvent and do all kinds of other non sense to try to argue something you can't argue.

You are being hostile and not letting me move you to look at the things which would help you understand. Your post here says it all. Conversation over.

 

[Buzz_B]

duh... I mean, if sin didn't enter the world there would be no sin in the world is like the most incredible duh moment I have seen on the forums in a long time. again, nothing in that questions anything I really did say....God's word says that righteousness cannot reside with unrighteousness...where is all the amazing stuff you are supposedly teaching me that I have wrong? Why are you so stuck on milk you can't look at meat?
and again you add a new definition for temple when you argued there was only one understanding while evidencing only one understanding by showing several...really, that is not speaking the truth of God for God is NOT the author of confusion.

You got one thing right. God is not the author of confusion. But you have too much emotion running inside you to even see how you are reasoning otherwise.

We are finished posting to each other because your attitude is not conducive to peaceful exchange.

 

[razzelflabben]

Arrogant people do ask such things. We just have to forgive them and look past their expressions of resentment and hatred. But in my case if I chose to answer them I would have to tell the truth. And that truth is yes, God does speak with me. Not only that he reveals things to me in dreams. I was with a group of people regularly leading up to September 1, 2001 and the World Trade Center Terrorist Attack. I knew a few weeks in advance that a major event was going to occur in the USA which would shake the world. God revealed it in two different dreams. I did not know exactly which buildings it would be be but I knew the big shakeup was coming. Then in around 2009/2010 I was involved in an online discussion of prophecy and some of the posters were speculating what events were yet to occur with some saying we were right there and expected it immediately within mere months. But God placed it in my heart and mind to tell them, 'No, it will not come before we see major events take place in Syria and in 2017 we will see the signs speed up as the doorway to the final years. And not one thing I have ever been told has proved untrue. If I am unsure of something I will not speak it.

I figure there is good reason Satan sought so hard to kill me from the day I was born. I am only really now beginning to more fully understand what God has groomed me for. You may take it any way you wish. That is what people do, anyway.

lol it was a joke but thanks for the detail...I wonder if you only speak truth why would you speak untruths of me and what I say?

 

[razzelflabben]

You are being hostile and not letting me move you to look at the things which would help you understand. Your post here says it all. Conversation over.

I showed you why your words are contradictory...in fact, I have been waiting patiently for you to "teach" me what I don't know and all you do is contradict yourself then accuse me of being hostile and ending the discussion. Why would someone who knows truth be so rude and impatient with someone who is anxious to learn. Or are you once again reading into my posts what is NOt there, like hostility that does not exist?

 

[razzelflabben]

You got one thing right. God is not the author of confusion. But you have too much emotion running inside you to even see how you are reasoning otherwise.

We are finished posting to each other because your attitude is not conducive to peaceful exchange.

Oh my you and a certain other poster are so funny for accusing me of this....I was talking with my husband this morning and he said this...."The only reason they are accusing you of being emotional is because you are a woman. If they knew you at all they would never accuse you of such things." Then he laughed at the thought of anyone thinking I was responding out of emotion.

By the way, it is your attitude that is problematic in that 1. you refuse to address the issue being presented. 2. you contradict yourself but refuse to take responsibility or explain how it is not 3. you reinvent things to give you something to argue about and 4. you boast of things you refuse to present. And that doesn't even include false accusations and other such rude behavior. Now, I have repeatedly asked you to teach me what I am missing and all you offer is a repeat of what I said or contradictions then accusations that are false and then accuse me of having an unproductive attitude....how about looking at yourself before lying about me?

 

[Buzz_B]

lol it was a joke but thanks for the detail...I wonder if you only speak truth why would you speak untruths of me and what I say?

Then you might consider doing as I do when I joke and state that you are just razzing or joking. I am not a mind reader.

 

[Buzz_B]

I showed you why your words are contradictory...in fact, I have been waiting patiently for you to "teach" me what I don't know and all you do is contradict yourself then accuse me of being hostile and ending the discussion. Why would someone who knows truth be so rude and impatient with someone who is anxious to learn. Or are you once again reading into my posts what is NOt there, like hostility that does not exist?

Yes, you showed me why you thought me to be speaking contradictory but refuse to allow me to present evidence from the Scriptures that you are mistaken. When I do you accuse me of not addressing your point. What you really mean is that all you want to hear from me is, "I agree."

And this applies to what you said in your post 438, also.

It is not my desire to offend you. The woman I thought you might be who lives in Germany and myself got along real good. Not many people could get along with her but after a brief brush she and i ended up getting along just fine. Perhaps that will happen with you. I hope so.