Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[razzelflabben]

You posted this before I posted in another thread wherein I used almost the same exact word, "When one suffers we all suffer and when one rejoices we all rejoice."

God is wonderful and he truly does unite us as one. So much so that our thinking comes into perfect harmony. The joy of that bond more than makes up for the struggles we had to go through to get there.

...when the Church acts like the Church. I added that only because many people get hurt in the body and leave the church because of it...I myself could tell some horror stories of things that were done by the church in the name of "love".

 

[GenemZ]

You posted this before I posted in another thread wherein I used almost the same exact word, "When one suffers we all suffer and when one rejoices we all rejoice."

God is wonderful and he truly does unite us as one. So much so that our thinking comes into perfect harmony. The joy of that bond more than makes up for the struggles we had to go through to get there.

That speaks of local churches... Just like we have family units.

If that sympathetic identification with other believers was not referring to local churches in their own autonomous experience, as local bodies onto themselves? Then there could be no joy in the believer in this world.

For there are many miserable believers in this world due to wrong choices and bad desires for what is false. No one could rejoice if it referred to the entire body of Christ today. It speaks of a local church experience as a family unit.

 

[razzelflabben]

That speaks of local churches... Just like we have family units.

If that sympathetic identification with other believers was not referring to local churches in their own autonomous experience, as local bodies onto themselves? Then there could be no joy in the believer in this world.

For there are many miserable believers in this world due to wrong choices and bad desires for what is false. No one could rejoice if it referred to the entire body of Christ today. It speaks of a local church experience as a family unit.

You would be wrong...there is great joy in the middle of great sorrow. James 1 and many other passages would tell us you are wrong. No need to take my word for it, God says it and that should be good enough for a thread that is focused on what scripture says. That said, I have experienced it myself.

You seem to still have a worldly/fleshly mindset while trying to talk about and study the things of the Spirit.

 

[abysmul]

...do you remember the last time a guy walked into a church and killed 26 people with a lock on a door?
tulc(asking for a friend)

Exits Were Locked at Argentine Club Where a Fire Killed 175

 

[razzelflabben]

Exits Were Locked at Argentine Club Where a Fire Killed 175

the question however was about killing with a locked door, not did the locked door assist in killing.

 

[GenemZ]

You would be wrong...there is great joy in the middle of great sorrow. James 1 and many other passages would tell us you are wrong. No need to take my word for it, God says it and that should be good enough for a thread that is focused on what scripture says. That said, I have experienced it myself.

You seem to still have a worldly/fleshly mindset while trying to talk about and study the things of the Spirit.

First of all.... the 12 tribes in dispersion? They were all located in one local church in Jerusalem. That was where James was a leader. If they were not in dispersion? They all would not be located in Jerusalem.

Then...this is where you got real fuzzy in your emotional reasoning. It had nothing to do with rejoicing with those who rejoice, and when one member hurts we hurt.

Look at what you were trying to use to make your arrow without a point!

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you
face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing
of your faith produces perseverance."​

It says what? When YOU face many trials. You got totally off topic! It was not about identifying with church members are hurting, or when rejoicing.

You would make me dizzy. That is, if I were a new believer trying to learn, and you were giving a bible study. I would feel discouraged and think that the Bible can never be truly understood. You only offer confusion and mixed up reasoning. Careful how you read! Its sloppy so far.

 

[Buzz_B]

...when the Church acts like the Church. I added that only because many people get hurt in the body and leave the church because of it...I myself could tell some horror stories of things that were done by the church in the name of "love".

Yes, I understand that your point is that too many give up on the brotherhood, so to speak, and rather than doing their part to help the situation the direction of a healing run from the battle. If we are to be spiritual soldiers in the world we certainly ought to first be spiritual soldiers in our own brotherhood.

 

[razzelflabben]

First of all.... the 12 tribes in dispersion? They were all located in one local church in Jerusalem. That was where James was a leader. If they were not in dispersion? They all would not be located in Jerusalem.

Then...this is where you got real fuzzy in your emotional reasoning. It had nothing to do with rejoicing with those who rejoice, and when one member hurts we hurt.

Look at what you were trying to use to make your arrow without a point!

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you
face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing
of your faith produces perseverance."​

It says what? When YOU face many trials. You got totally off topic! It was not about identifying with church members are hurting, or when rejoicing.

You would make me dizzy. That is, if I were a new believer trying to learn, and you were giving a bible study. I would feel discouraged and think that the Bible can never be truly understood. You only offer confusion and mixed up reasoning. Careful how you read! Its sloppy so far.

lol you get so funny when you try to prove me wrong when what is stated is straight out of scripture....the passage you are trying to argue against is this one....Romans 12....

9 Love must be without hypocrisy. Detest evil; cling to what is good. 10 Show family affection to one another with brotherly love. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not lack diligence; be fervent in spirit;serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope; be patient in affliction; be persistent in prayer. 13 Share with the saints in their needs; pursue hospitality.14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Be in agreement with one another. Do not be proud; instead, associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil.Try to do what is honorable in everyone’s eyes. 18 If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19 Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord. 20 But

If your enemy is hungry, feed him.

If he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

For in so doing

you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.

21 Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.


Notice the context is for everyone not just those in the local body. The James passage was offered only to show that joy can and does happen in the midst of great sorrow which you tried to argue against. So you see, in the context of our discussion James shows you wrong that it has to be local church body because otherwise all we would do is grieve...false, James testifies to the truth that joy and sorrow can reside together. The entire discussion comes from Romans 12 which offers only the context of everyone, which would mean that even there you are once again wrong.

Like I said, your posts look so foolish sometimes that it is almost humorous but then again that happens a lot with people who are so busy trying to justify themselves that they fail to listen to what is being said....have a good day seeking the truth of our Lord.

 

[razzelflabben]

First of all.... the 12 tribes in dispersion? They were all located in one local church in Jerusalem. That was where James was a leader. If they were not in dispersion? They all would not be located in Jerusalem.

Then...this is where you got real fuzzy in your emotional reasoning. It had nothing to do with rejoicing with those who rejoice, and when one member hurts we hurt.

Look at what you were trying to use to make your arrow without a point!

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you
face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing
of your faith produces perseverance."​

It says what? When YOU face many trials. You got totally off topic! It was not about identifying with church members are hurting, or when rejoicing.

You would make me dizzy. That is, if I were a new believer trying to learn, and you were giving a bible study. I would feel discouraged and think that the Bible can never be truly understood. You only offer confusion and mixed up reasoning. Careful how you read! Its sloppy so far.

let's take this a bit further...my husband is formally trained and when I read this to him he got so upset by your sloppy posting that he wouldn't even allow me to tell him the context that you missed...so here are his words to you.

First you use the word dispersion the word used should be diaspora....your assumption that this is just to the church in Jerusalem is wrong. Because it is addressed to all Jewish Christians wherever they are scattered. Because if James was going to just address this to those in Jerusalem he would have just used that term...It is a encyclical letter addressed to all Jewish Christians that are scattered. And that is pretty much agreed to by most biblical scholars.

Again, these are his words as a formally trained person with the gift of knowledge...btw, he also added that at that time the Jerusalem church was pretty well scattered.

Now, I wasn't even going to go there because of how fragile your pride seems to be but I did want to get a word in edgewise with him since this is so off topic of what we are talking about.

 

[GenemZ]

lol you get so funny when you try to prove me wrong when what is stated is straight out of scripture....the passage you are trying to argue against is this one....Romans 12....

9 Love must be without hypocrisy. Detest evil; cling to what is good. 10 Show family affection to one another with brotherly love. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not lack diligence; be fervent in spirit;serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope; be patient in affliction; be persistent in prayer. 13 Share with the saints in their needs; pursue hospitality.14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Be in agreement with one another. Do not be proud; instead, associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil.Try to do what is honorable in everyone’s eyes. 18 If possible, on your part, live at peace with everyone. 19 Friends, do not avenge yourselves; instead, leave room for His wrath. For it is written: Vengeance belongs to Me; I will repay, says the Lord. 20 But

If your enemy is hungry, feed him.

If he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

For in so doing

you will be heaping fiery coals on his head.

21 Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.


Notice the context is for everyone not just those in the local body. The James passage was offered only to show that joy can and does happen in the midst of great sorrow which you tried to argue against. So you see, in the context of our discussion James shows you wrong that it has to be local church body because otherwise all we would do is grieve...false, James testifies to the truth that joy and sorrow can reside together. The entire discussion comes from Romans 12 which offers only the context of everyone, which would mean that even there you are once again wrong.

Like I said, your posts look so foolish sometimes that it is almost humorous but then again that happens a lot with people who are so busy trying to justify themselves that they fail to listen to what is being said....have a good day seeking the truth of our Lord.

That is not all there is!

"In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers
and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you
received from us." 2 Thes 3:6​

Feed them? Give them drink?

Your passages speak of winning over unbelievers. With believers we are to be careful with. They can mislead and cause ruin to other believers when they become self appointed arrogant (smiley face) teachers!

Did you know that Paul warned against certain believers?

And, did you know? That the word translated "belly" was the word used back then to describe what we today refer to as the emotions?

Certain believers are ruled by how the feel about a matter. They refuse to deny self and take up their crosses when confronted by the hard truth of God's Word. Instead they get sentimental and dogmatic about their wishful thinking, and will OVER RULE the Word of God according to how they feel it really should be.

Did you know that Paul warned about these believers with tears as he taught about them? Real trouble makers and self appointed ones. Always looking for and finding others who are like minded to join them in agreeing in a world of mutual approval for each other in how they "feel" about a matter...

All done by using wrongly the Word of God to make them feel good inside about how they feel it should be. For, they know if they were God? Surely what they "feel" would be so. And, of course, God feels like they do! Whammo! That have created God in their own image! Why? Their "god is all about how they feel it should be! Distorting the Word as they make their points.

Paul cried about them....

" Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just
as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,
many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction,
their god is their stomach (emotions), and their glory is in their shame.
Their mind is set on earthly things." ​

When it says... " Their destiny is destruction."

That speaks of this concerning believers who follow their own way. Their works are wood, hay, and stubble. All to be destroyed by fire when evaluated by our Lord who will not tolerate human good in the place of divine good. Divine good are actions and thoughts performed according to an accurate understanding of Himself. The Word of God!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold,
silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown
for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15​

Paul wept because these self opinionated believers become such walls that could not be reasoned with. For their "god" is how they felt about a matter.

Always using the Word of God wrongly to justify themselves in their stand.

They study the Word! But, they refuse reality when its rightly given to them! Instead, they deny and fight misusing the Word for how they feel it should be.

Their "god" is their emotions. Overruled by how they feel!

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our
dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:15-16


If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:15​

Its reality. Unless we deny self and take up our crosses we shall not be able to follow the Word of God correctly. It will annoy us at times. It will upset us at times and tell us we are fools in how we naturally see things. But, only a fool if we refuse corrections when they come.

 

[razzelflabben]

Did you know that Paul warned against certain believers?

And, did you know? That the word translated "belly" was the word used back then to describe what we today refer to as the emotions?

Certain believers are ruled by how the feel about a matter. They refuse to deny self and take up their crosses when confronted by the hard truth of God's Word. Instead they get sentimental and dogmatic about their wishful thinking, and will OVER RULE the Word of God according to how they feel it really should be.

lol...you are so funny...the very fact that I posted James and said that I have experienced it testifies to the truth of emotions and how deceptive they can be. What is unfortunate however, is that post after post you show yourself unwilling to crucify self and instead live in the discomfort of your emotional hurt of a bruised pride. I am praying for you.

Did you know that Paul warned about these believers with tears as he taught about them? Real trouble makers and self appointed ones. Always looking for and finding others who are like minded to join them in agreeing in a world of mutual approval for each other in how they "feel" about a matter...

All done by using wrongly the Word of God to make them feel good inside about how they feel it should be. For, they know if they were God? Surely what they "feel" would be so. And, of course, God feels like they do! Whammo! That have created God in their own image! Why? Their "god is all about how they feel it should be! Distorting the Word as they make their points.

lol again this is funny coming from you when you have been shown scripture and have done your best to argue against it not to mention your refusal to address context. It really is sad but funny that you don't see how deceived your posts are to what God really does say.

Paul cried about them....

" Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just
as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,
many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction,
their god is their stomach (emotions), and their glory is in their shame.
Their mind is set on earthly things."​

notice I previously pointed out that your posts show that you are trying to talk about spiritual things by looking only at the flesh/worldly understanding...seems to me that your asking me if I understand these things when I have already pointed them out to you that you really are not reading anything at all that I am saying.​

When it says... " Their destiny is destruction."

That speaks of this concerning believers who follow their own way. Their works are wood, hay, and stubble. All to be destroyed by fire when evaluated by our Lord who will not tolerate human good in the place of divine good. Divine good are actions and thoughts performed according to an accurate understanding of Himself. The Word of God!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold,
silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown
for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15​

lol again I laugh since this "war" between you and I started when I said that I refused to add to or take from the Word of God...something that you apparently didn't like. Now you are posting it as if you are the one who is not adding too...that truly is funny whether it is intended to be or not. ​

Paul wept because these self opinionated believers become such walls that could not be reasoned with. For their "god" is how they felt about a matter.

and just as funny is this is exactly what my husband accused you of and I tried to defend you as just having a bruised ego...maybe I am wrong, maybe my husband was right to accuse you of having your ideas be your "god"...I will take the matter to prayer.

Always using the Word of God wrongly to justify themselves in their stand.

They study the Word! But, they refuse reality when its rightly given to them! Instead, they deny and fight misusing the Word for how they feel it should be.

well, you won't even discuss the word, you just demand you are right then try to accuse those who disagree with you as being all sorts of evil things which is a very troubling matter but one that you will have to answer to God for.

Their "god" is their emotions. Overruled by how they feel!

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our
dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:15-16


If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:15​

Its reality. Unless we deny self and take up our crosses we shall not be able to follow the Word of God correctly. It will annoy us at times. It will upset us at times and tell us we are fools in how we naturally see things. But, only a fool if we refuse corrections when they come.

You know it's funny that you want to talk about crucifying self in this discussion. You see, this is a very serious topic for me, one in which anyone who knows me will tell you that I go to great lengths to deny myself in order to actually hear God and what He has to say no matter what it is or how hard it is to hear. They will tell you that I am not an emotional understander of God nor follower. In fact, when I first came to God I was concerned that I wasn't emotional enough because of all the people I witnessed with an emotional response to everything about God.

May you discover the beauty of crucifying self, the strength and power of sharing in His suffering. May you learn how to remove the emotions from your posts and your understanding of God so that you are able to see the true God, the Living God, the god who is without question the Lord of all, even our emotional.

 

[Buzz_B]

That is not all there is!

"In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers
and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you
received from us." 2 Thes 3:6​

Feed them? Give them drink?

Your passages speak of winning over unbelievers. With believers we are to be careful with. They can mislead and cause ruin to other believers when they become self appointed arrogant (smiley face) teachers!

Did you know that Paul warned against certain believers?

And, did you know? That the word translated "belly" was the word used back then to describe what we today refer to as the emotions?

Certain believers are ruled by how the feel about a matter. They refuse to deny self and take up their crosses when confronted by the hard truth of God's Word. Instead they get sentimental and dogmatic about their wishful thinking, and will OVER RULE the Word of God according to how they feel it really should be.

Did you know that Paul warned about these believers with tears as he taught about them? Real trouble makers and self appointed ones. Always looking for and finding others who are like minded to join them in agreeing in a world of mutual approval for each other in how they "feel" about a matter...

All done by using wrongly the Word of God to make them feel good inside about how they feel it should be. For, they know if they were God? Surely what they "feel" would be so. And, of course, God feels like they do! Whammo! That have created God in their own image! Why? Their "god is all about how they feel it should be! Distorting the Word as they make their points.

Paul cried about them....

" Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just
as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,
many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction,
their god is their stomach (emotions), and their glory is in their shame.
Their mind is set on earthly things." ​

When it says... " Their destiny is destruction."

That speaks of this concerning believers who follow their own way. Their works are wood, hay, and stubble. All to be destroyed by fire when evaluated by our Lord who will not tolerate human good in the place of divine good. Divine good are actions and thoughts performed according to an accurate understanding of Himself. The Word of God!

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,
which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold,
silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown
for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed
with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15​

Paul wept because these self opinionated believers become such walls that could not be reasoned with. For their "god" is how they felt about a matter.

Always using the Word of God wrongly to justify themselves in their stand.

They study the Word! But, they refuse reality when its rightly given to them! Instead, they deny and fight misusing the Word for how they feel it should be.

Their "god" is their emotions. Overruled by how they feel!

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our
dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other
Scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:15-16


If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:15​

Its reality. Unless we deny self and take up our crosses we shall not be able to follow the Word of God correctly. It will annoy us at times. It will upset us at times and tell us we are fools in how we naturally see things. But, only a fool if we refuse corrections when they come.

From that I hope it is safe to say you are not a supporter of OSAS. For you have sure described them. LOL.

Not that it in any way invalidates the points you have made, but I would be interested to know if you really do understand :
"If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:14-15

Most wrest that text as meaning the materials making up the builders own character. But Paul is actually speaking to those who have engaged in helping to build the church, God's temple. And Paul is speaking of the same thing he continue speaking on just a couple verses later: 1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are", or, which temple the plural Greek pronoun translated "you" are builded together to be, just as he spoke of at Ephesians 2:19-22.

So the materials represent the quality of those allowed to enter into the church by or through the builders of the church.
1 Corinthians 3:10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

For the church is built up to be the Temple of God, a place corresponding spiritually to that one temple which served all of Israel. And for a builder of that church or temple to let himself be taken in by the wisdom of the world and end up allowing rubble into Christ's church was as working along with those whose only purpose in entering the church was to tear it down, thus destroying the temple of God. And being as these unwise builders would have done that in ignorance rather than intentionally, verse 15 is true for him: "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved —even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Ponder that throughout that chapter comparing with Ephesians 2:19-22 as i showed you above. If you do not now see it, you will see it. Just care to reason it through.

 

[razzelflabben]

From that I hope it is safe to say you are not a supporter of OSAS. For you have sure described them. LOL.

Not that it in any way invalidates the points you have made, but I would be interested to know if you really do understand :
"If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved
—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:14-15

Most wrest that text as meaning the materials making up the builders own character. But Paul is actually speaking to those who have engaged in helping to build the church, God's temple. And Paul is speaking of the same thing he continue speaking on just a couple verses later: 1 Corinthians 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are", or, which temple the plural Greek pronoun translated "you" are builded together to be, just as he spoke of at Ephesians 2:19-22.

So the materials represent the quality of those allowed to enter into the church by or through the builders of the church.
1 Corinthians 3:10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

For the church is built up to be the Temple of God, a place corresponding spiritually to that one temple which served all of Israel. And for a builder of that church or temple to let himself be taken in by the wisdom of the world and end up allowing rubble into Christ's church was as working along with those whose only purpose in entering the church was to tear it down, thus destroying the temple of God. And being as these unwise builders would have done that in ignorance rather than intentionally, verse 15 is true for him: "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved —even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Ponder that throughout that chapter comparing with Ephesians 2:19-22 as i showed you above. If you do not now see it, you will see it. Just care to reason it through.

it is interesting that you talk about the temple. There are several different "temple"s being discussed in scripture and the only way to know what is being referred to is through context that most people refuse to address. That being true consider this passage....I Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

now apply that to this passage...Luke 19:46
He declared to them, "It is written: 'My house will be a house of prayer.' But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"

combine all that with this passage...I Thessalonians 5:17 pray continually,

Do you see the connections? It's actually a very beautiful picture of God's relationship with man. Point being, many things in scripture are uncomfortable to the fleshly mind because they are not either or but both and pictures of God's relationship to man.

 

[Buzz_B]

it is interesting that you talk about the temple. There are several different "temple"s being discussed in scripture and the only way to know what is being referred to is through context that most people refuse to address. That being true consider this passage....I Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

now apply that to this passage...Luke 19:46
He declared to them, "It is written: 'My house will be a house of prayer.' But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'"

combine all that with this passage...I Thessalonians 5:17 pray continually,

Do you see the connections? It's actually a very beautiful picture of God's relationship with man. Point being, many things in scripture are uncomfortable to the fleshly mind because they are not either or but both and pictures of God's relationship to man.

That is a mistranslation of 1 Corinthians 6:19

What that verse actually says according to the Koine' Greek text, is, "ee ouk oidate hoti to swma humwn naos tou en humin hagiou pneumatos estin hou echete apo theou kai ouk este heautwn"

"OR NOT HAVE YOU KNOWN THAT THE BODY OF YOU DIVINE HABITATION OF THE IN YOU HOLY SPIRIT IS, OF WHICH YOU ARE HAVING FROM GOD? AND NOT YOU ARE OF SELVES"

"your" and "you" are in the plural number --- "body" is in the singular number and cannot honestly be translated as "bodies" plural. In that version the translator took it upon his or herself to tailor it to their understanding, and that is wrong to do.

So what that verse actually says is just as the KJV translates it:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

know ye<[as one body of Christ] not that your body<[of Christ] is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in<[or, among] you<[as the body of Christ], which ye have of God, and ye<[having died to the flesh and now living as the body of Christ] are not your own?

How can plural "you" have a singular body as that verse correctly translated shows? That is what stumped the translators who over-stepped their bounds and rendered "body" as if Paul had said "bodies."

That is the influence mistaken doctrine has on people. Many a Greek translator has cringed in his or her self for lack of understanding the Scriptures and thus feeling compelled to have violate the Greek grammar a bit here and there and even to add words to particular verses as it made sense to them in their lack of a better understanding. God understands that. That does not make them wicked. And I am proof that God eventually helps us find our way through it if we keep going back and revisiting those harder to handle texts with a humble mind which allows that we may have been wrong.

You are wrong about there being multiple temples. There was never more than one temple at a time in Israel. Only the pagans had multiple temples. Christ is our temple and our bodies are given just enough life at present to be used as members of that one temple which is Christ's body. 1 Corinthians 6:15 "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."

There at 1 Corinthians 6:15 Paul did not say, "Know ye not that your temples are the members of [the temple that is]> Christ? shall I then take the members of [the temple that is]>Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Our individual bodies can be no more than mere stones built up upon Christ as the chief foundation stone of God's Temple just as Ephesians 2:19-22 describes.

It helps to learn to properly apply the Biblical language grammar and to keep humbly checking and rechecking ourselves, for in the innocence of ignorance we make many mistakes along the way.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is a mistranslation of 1 Corinthians 6:19

What that verse actually says according to the Koine' Greek text, is, "ee ouk oidate hoti to swma humwn naos tou en humin hagiou pneumatos estin hou echete apo theou kai ouk este heautwn"

"OR NOT HAVE YOU KNOWN THAT THE BODY OF YOU DIVINE HABITATION OF THE IN YOU HOLY SPIRIT IS, OF WHICH YOU ARE HAVING FROM GOD? AND NOT YOU ARE OF SELVES"

"your" and "you" are in the plural number --- "body" is in the singular number and cannot honestly be translated as "bodies" plural. In that version the translator took it upon his or herself to tailor it to their understanding, and that is wrong to do.

you are following in the footsteps of another poster and missing the point in an attempt to correct what you do not understand.

So what that verse actually says is just as the KJV translates it:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

know ye<[as one body of Christ] not that your body<[of Christ] is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in<[or, among] you<[as the body of Christ], which ye have of God, and ye<[having died to the flesh and now living as the body of Christ] are not your own?

How can plural "you" have a singular body as that verse correctly translated shows? That is what stumped the translators who over-stepped their bounds and rendered "body" as if Paul had said "bodies."

That is the influence mistaken doctrine has on people. Many a Greek translator has cringed in his or her self for lack of understanding the Scriptures and thus feeling compelled to have violate the Greek grammar a bit here and there and even to add words to particular verses as it made sense to them in their lack of a better understanding. God understands that. That does not make them wicked. And I am proof that God eventually helps us find our way through it if we keep going back and revisiting those harder to handle texts with a humble mind which allows that we may have been wrong.

now, think about what I said...the word temple has several meanings and the only way to know which meaning is to understand the context....I offered nothing about the context in the passage you are going on about, did I? No I did not...what I did way carry a line of thinking into the totality of scripture...would you prefer one of these passages?
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 6:16
Ezekiel 36:27
Isaiah 63:11
2 Timothy 1:14
Ephesians 5:18
Romans 8:11
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:15
Galatians 4:6
1 John 2:27

they all say the same thing, the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within the believer...which was the point I was making. You see, if you actually study the word you discover that prayer is a place of dwelling in the presence of God. But as we see in the other passages, the place of prayer, also known as the temple is within us as well as within the body. Any other teaching is false teaching. The HOLY SPIRIT is our guarantee of salvation and without it there is not guarantee which is why the teaching of the indwelling HS is such an important teaching in the church and one that is often, as you are trying to do here, missing.

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Bible Theasaurus

You are wrong about there being multiple temples. There was never more than one temple at a time in Israel.

lol even you admit here more than one temple....how strange that you could claim there is only one temple by sighting that only one of the physical temples (building) existed at a time...that by default means there are more than one...lol

Only the pagans had multiple temples. Christ is our temple and our bodies are given just enough life at present to be used as members of that one temple which is Christ's body.

lol now you are saying that there is only one temple by sighting the temple building and the temple Christ....lol which is what I was referring to...lol this is so silly of you. I really expected more from you and the wonderful discussion we were having. I am really disappointed you are slipping into this type of reasoning.

1 Corinthians 6:15 "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."

There at 1 Corinthians 6:15 Paul did not say, "Know ye not that your temples are the members of [the temple that is]> Christ? shall I then take the members of [the temple that is]>Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

Our individual bodies can be no more than mere stones built up upon Christ as the chief foundation stone of God's Temple just as Ephesians 2:19-22 describes.

lol and what pray tell is the building temple? Is it not stones stacked upon the foundation? Lol...this is a very strange thing for you to be going off about and shows a total lack of understanding on your part of what I said and what you yourself are saying.

It helps to learn to properly apply the Biblical language grammar and to keep humbly checking and rechecking ourselves, for in the innocence of ignorance we make many mistakes along the way.

amen...but it is equally important to humble yourself enough to listen to both others and what you yourself are saying. Scripture has over 1000 passages about the importance of listening and here you are refusing to listen to me, yourself, or scripture in a quest to correct what you do not understand.

 

[Buzz_B]

you are following in the footsteps of another poster and missing the point in an attempt to correct what you do not understand. now, think about what I said...the word temple has several meanings and the only way to know which meaning is to understand the context....I offered nothing about the context in the passage you are going on about, did I? No I did not...what I did way carry a line of thinking into the totality of scripture...would you prefer one of these passages?
1 Corinthians 3:16
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 6:16
Ezekiel 36:27
Isaiah 63:11
2 Timothy 1:14
Ephesians 5:18
Romans 8:11
Romans 8:9
Romans 8:15
Galatians 4:6
1 John 2:27

they all say the same thing, the HOLY SPIRIT dwells within the believer...which was the point I was making. You see, if you actually study the word you discover that prayer is a place of dwelling in the presence of God. But as we see in the other passages, the place of prayer, also known as the temple is within us as well as within the body. Any other teaching is false teaching. The HOLY SPIRIT is our guarantee of salvation and without it there is not guarantee which is why the teaching of the indwelling HS is such an important teaching in the church and one that is often, as you are trying to do here, missing.

I cut out the emotionally opinionated spiel and will take the above down to my desktop and prepare a response.

Get yourself ready to listen when I do post it. Just razzing.

But sincerely, razzelflabben, you are only reciting things to me that I also at one time was taken in by. I do not think you really know how Greek grammar works. I thought I had seen you post on prepositions once before, though I may be mistaking another's post. But I recall thinking to myself at that time that whomever it was that posted did not really understand what they were speaking of. And you will find that all of those texts you cited are being colored by your root mistaken doctrine.

Your body is like a utensil as a member of the Temple that is Christ's body. That is why you have to have your body sprinkled with the water of purification. The Temple itself was not in need of being sprinkle for it was holy as it belonged to God. Those who entered the temple had to be purified just as the utensils used by the priests also had to be purified. All so that none of them would corrupt God's holy temple with their filth.

But you should know that God's temple has no corruption of itself to have to be purified for God does not dwell in anything unholy by corruption. And that is why our bodies as members entering that temple or even working in that temple must be sprinkled with the water of purification.

It is not easy for one to learn they built a house with major faults in it. But that is what mistaken doctrines do.

 

[razzelflabben]

I cut out the emotionally opinionated spiel and will take the above down to my desktop and prepare a response.

Get yourself ready to listen when I do post it. Just razzing.

lol emotionally, really funny.

But sincerely, razzelflabben, you are only reciting things to me that I also at one time was taken in by. I do not think you really know how Greek grammar works. I thought I had seen you post on prepositions once before, though I may be mistaking another's post. But I recall thinking to myself at that time that whomever it was that posted did not really understand what they were speaking of. And you will find that all of those texts you cited are being colored by your root mistaken doctrine.

so...let me get this right? You do not believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit and the power therein...is that right? Cause that is what each of the passages I just gave you say. Interesting that you disagree with so many passages about the Holy Spirit...personally I know the HS to be in my life and working in me just as scripture says. I am sorry you don't believe in the indwelling HS because that same Spirit is the power of God to save us.

Your body is like a utensil as a member of the Temple that is Christ's body. That is why you have to have your body sprinkled with the water of purification. The Temple itself was not in need of being sprinkle for it was holy as it belonged to God. Those who entered the temple had to be purified just as the utensils used by the priests also had to be purified. All so that none of them would corrupt God's holy temple with their filth.

this goes back to the whole understanding of the temple and the sacrifices and such which have no problem with what I said which makes me wonder why you would try to bring it up since it is consistent with what I really did say.

But you should know that God's temple has no corruption of itself to have to be purified for God does not dwell in anything unholy by corruption. And that is why our bodies as members entering that temple or even working in that temple must be sprinkled with the water of purification.

again, you can believe what you want but I believe what scripture says and it says that the HS dwells within me and works in me...

It is not easy for one to learn they built a house with major faults in it. But that is what mistaken doctrines do.

got no idea what that even is suppose to mean, scripture is clear that when Christ ascended into heaven He sent to us the promised HS which is enough for me. IOW's I don't need you or any man to say what God clearly states in order to believe what God says.

 

[Buzz_B]

lol emotionally, really funny. so...let me get this right? You do not believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit and the power therein...is that right? Cause that is what each of the passages I just gave you say.

Wrong. I do believe in the indwelling of the holy spirit, foremost directly within the only pure place it can dwell (for it like God cannot dwell with unholiness) and secondly by influence upon the believer's own personal spirit so that the believer's spirit becomes as one in full communication with God's spirit. To be filled with holy spirit can and often does mean that your own spirit has been rendered holy by that influence the spirit which dwells IN the temple among the plural believers asserts upon the spirits of the believers bringing them together as one.

There are many things you either have yet to learn or are just not recalling and considering into your conclusions. But I will take you through the basics of what one must know before they can really fully understand.

We will need to discuss the temple which existed there in Jerusalem which when Jesus prophesied that it would be torn down he made reference to his own body which would be the temple built up again in three days. The layout of that physical temple tells us much about what is taking place in Christ. Israel's physical temples were a mere foreshadow of the temple that is Christ, especially the one Jesus referenced.

We have been fed a number of falsities also about how sin influences us, but, when we correctly understand about how sin influences us externally and performs a work in us internally, we then are enabled to better understand how the holy spirit both influences us externally (among us in the body of Christ the true temple) and performs works in us internally (by bringing our personal internal spirits into oneness with it while it actually is dwelling among us). Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly." And God's spirit can make that spirit of man holy so that it can be said that we are filled by holy spirit.

Did you know that the word "with" does not actually appear in the Greek text of Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." What it literally says is, "filled of holy spirit.." Now think about that for a second. What ever the holy spirit causes to enter us, be it the knowledge of the tongue of a different language or joy or whatever, the mere fact that we have that gift OF the holy spirit means it was what filled us. That is not the same as saying it literally indwells us. All we need is a place to find the holy spirit so as to begin our connection to it with our own spirit for that bond of oneness and to also maintenance that connection to be sure we never lose it. And that place is where it dwells among us in the temple which is the body of Christ. From the start of developing that connection it is a small matter for the holy spirit to fill us with whatever gift God wants it to and when it does we can truthfully say that we have personally been filled OF holy spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

This has gone to the windless ..... like a school yard fight of boasting ...

 

[Buzz_B]

This has gone to the windless ..... like a school yard fight of boasting ...

Yes, you are right. Perhaps I should begin a different thread to continue the current discussion with razzelflabben. If she is willing, that is.