Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[GenemZ]

Yes, you are right. Perhaps I should begin a different thread to continue the current discussion with razzelflabben. If she is willing, that is.

Here is the problem...

Razzelflabben is posting truths, but that are not truth for a one size fits all situation.

She apparently fails to see that there are also other sides, also needed to the truth. I am not trying to nullify what she posts (as far as the passages). I am trying to say that we need to be discerning and thinking with the Word, for not every situation will require the same passages as its answer.

She broad brushed "rejoicing with others" without knowing its context. And, then she argues that I do not understand. Then tears me down with her words..

She fails to understand that Christianity is not like Law. That a given situation may require a different response, other than a.. one and the same for all. That is why some are to turn the other cheek, when in another given situation, they were required by God to fight to defend their family's lives.

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:


2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.​

Its not the one same way for all situations!

Yet, its always to be one way for a specific kind of situation!

We must be knowing the different situations and follow through to please God.

She rejects the other situations I presented and what is called for by the Word of God. It appears she wants her "feel good emotionally" type of Christianity... I have known believers like that.

God's Word is not telling us a night time lullaby. He is telling us reality. He may bless some with the glories of the honeymoon that never ends, and will at another time, supply the grace to be courageous in time of needing to defend yourself and others.

Christianity is not a one way to be for everything, way of life. It requires knowledge and making choices that fit each given situation

 

[Buzz_B]

Here is the problem...

Razzelflabben is posting truths, but that are not truth for a one size fits all situation.

She apparently fails to see that there are also other sides, also needed to the truth. I am not trying to nullify what she posts (as far as the passages). I am trying to say that we need to be discerning and thinking with the Word, for not every situation will require the same passages as its answer.

She broad brushed "rejoicing with others" without knowing its context. And, then she argues that I do not understand. Then tears me down with her words..

She fails to understand that Christianity is not like Law. That a given situation may require a different response, other than a.. one and the same for all. That is why some are to turn the other cheek, when in another given situation, they were required by God to fight to defend their family's lives.

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:


2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.​

Its not the one same way for all situations!

Yet, its always to be one way for a specific kind of situation!

We must be knowing the different situations and follow through to please God.

She rejects the other situations I presented and what is called for by the Word of God. It appears she wants her "feel good emotionally" type of Christianity... I have known believers like that.

God's Word is not telling us a night time lullaby. He is telling us reality. He may bless some with the glories of the honeymoon that never ends, and will at another time, supply the grace to be courageous in time of needing to defend yourself and others.

Christianity is not a one way to be for everything, way of life. It requires knowledge and making choices that fit each given situation

Yes, I have noticed that and I agree with what you are saying. She reminds me a bit of someone I use to enjoy discussions with on another forum. I can tell that she loves God and Christ and that love sustains her. In the end it is not going to be perfect knowledge which has saved us any more so than trying to totally work our way to salvation apart from the grace of God. But as you say, this is not some lullaby. It is about living in the real world in a way that pleases God. And there is no way to live in the real world without being faced to some extent with the things you speak of. Nor can we live in the real world without works, which have to be works that God approves us. So, even if in no other way, works are essential to salvation. They have to be, being as in the real world we cannot live without them and we can work ourselves right into being disapproved of by them.

 

[GenemZ]

Nor can we live in the real world without works, which have to be works that God approves us. So, even if in no other way, works are essential to salvation. They have to be, being as in the real world we cannot live without them and we can work ourselves right into being disapproved of by them.

Salvation has a two fold in nature.

One is unconditional and eternal. Believing in Christ.

The other.. is becoming saved (by means of grace and truth) from the evils we must face in this world.

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may
have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so
that your faith may be proven genuine—of greater worth than
gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in
praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though
you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do
not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an
inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end
result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Pet 1:6-9)​

Genuine faith = sound doctrinal intake and filling of the Spirit. Saved by works (from evil).

False doctrine produces an artificial faith! Fails in our works saving us. Not saved by works!

The works that save us saves us from the evils of this present world, as we become walking examples of a transformed mind that walks in truth that overcomes the world.

When we find ourselves doing that? God considers our works as "gold, silver, and precious stones." They will be tested by fire in our evaluation by the Lord. Gold, silver, and precious stones will not perish by fire.

The precious metals may melt though.

And, what becomes of those melted precious metals and precious stones? They that survive the Lord's testing fire? I believe that is melted will be poured into a Divine mold designed by the Lord. That mold opens after cooling and reveals "Our Crown" that will glorify the Lord forever! "Gold, silver, and precious stones!"

But? For those who insist upon doing works run by their feelings and emotions? Those works God calls "wood, hay, and stubble." These will be utterly destroyed in the Lord's testing fire.

There will be no eternal rewards for that "wood" kind of believer. Yet, it says that their souls remain saved from the Lake of Fire.

The "wood heads" works did not save them from evil in this world. They were never saved from evil by their works in this world, These believers failed to glorify Christ in time. They may have produced many humanly works and usually are seen as quite proud of what they thought they were doing concerning their faith.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,which is Jesus Christ. (eternal salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15
​

Believers with dead works will be saved. Saved like a man running from a burning house with no clothes on his back! But, it says? He will be saved.

Go argue with the Word. I have no time to defend the obvious.

 

[Buzz_B]

Salvation has a two fold in nature.

One is unconditional and eternal. Believing in Christ.

The other.. is becoming saved (by means of grace and truth) from the evils we must face in this world.

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may
have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so
that your faith may be proven genuine—of greater worth than
gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in
praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though
you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do
not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an
inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end
result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Pet 1:6-9)​

Genuine faith = sound doctrinal intake and filling of the Spirit. Saved by works (from evil).

False doctrine produces an artificial faith! Fails in our works saving us. Not saved by works!

The works that save us saves us from the evils of this present world, as we become walking examples of a transformed mind that walks in truth that overcomes the world.

When we find ourselves doing that? God considers our works as "gold, silver, and precious stones." They will be tested by fire in our evaluation by the Lord. Gold, silver, and precious stones will not perish by fire.

The precious metals may melt though.

And, what becomes of those melted precious metals and precious stones? They that survive the Lord's testing fire? I believe that is melted will be poured into a Divine mold designed by the Lord. That mold opens after cooling and reveals "Our Crown" that will glorify the Lord forever! "Gold, silver, and precious stones!"

But? For those who insist upon doing works run by their feelings and emotions? Those works God calls "wood, hay, and stubble." These will be utterly destroyed in the Lord's testing fire.

There will be no eternal rewards for that "wood" kind of believer. Yet, it says that their souls remain saved from the Lake of Fire.

The "wood heads" works did not save them from evil in this world. They were never saved from evil by their works in this world, These believers failed to glorify Christ in time. They may have produced many humanly works and usually are seen as quite proud of what they thought they were doing concerning their faith.

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid,which is Jesus Christ. (eternal salvation)
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." 1 Cor 3:11-15
​

Believers with dead works will be saved. Saved like a man running from a burning house with no clothes on his back! But, it says? He will be saved.

Go argue with the Word. I have no time to defend the obvious.

Sorry but salvation is the end of your faith, not the beginning:
1 Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

A lot of people have been messed up with poorly researched doctrines. There is no such thing as a, quote, "unconditional and eternal" salvation before the end of ones faith and God cements ones salvation with immortality. That is what immortality is for. In the beginning stages of our faith what we have is the promise of our God who cannot lie telling us that he will not abandon us if we do not abandon him:

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Paul goes onto encourage us not to be the sort who gives out in our faith, by saying, in verse 39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." But that is a resolve Paul is expressing. He says that to encourage us to adopt that as our resolve. For Paul clearly shows that those who have been in Christ and enlightened of the holy spirit can fall away to be lost forever. the only place one can be so enlightened as the next words of paul describe is to have been genuinely in Christ for a time:
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Yet many at this point rush over to wrest John's words at 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." They wrest John there to have said these ones were never in Christ. But all John meant is that they were not one of us who are so firmly resolved in our faith that we let nothing come between. And you can see that they were in Christ in his words at 2 John 1:8-9 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." ("abideth in" means "remain in")

I have rarely found an organized religion that does teach without error. Some more so than others. It makes me sometimes wonder if maybe Jehovah's Witnesses might be actually right about how they identify Christendom and its churches. Because its people are so scantly taught. I mean, yous seem to find it very easy to ignore the most obvious things:
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

I did not bother with your comment on 1 Cor 3 because if you did not get the sense of it from my post 392 you just do not want to right now. You for the moment prefer to invent your own context rather than to inspect Paul's context as I showed you to do. And far be it from me to wrest with you over it.

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry but salvation is the end of your faith, not the beginning:
1 Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

A lot of people have been messed up with poorly researched doctrines. There is no such thing as a, quote, "unconditional and eternal" salvation before the end of ones faith and God cements ones salvation with immortality. That is what immortality is for. In the beginning stages of our faith what we have is the promise of our God who cannot lie telling us that he will not abandon us if we do not abandon him:

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Paul goes onto encourage us not to be the sort who gives out in our faith, by saying, in verse 39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." But that is a resolve Paul is expressing. He says that to encourage us to adopt that as our resolve. For Paul clearly shows that those who have been in Christ and enlightened of the holy spirit can fall away to be lost forever. the only place one can be so enlightened as the next words of paul describe is to have been genuinely in Christ for a time:
Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Yet many at this point rush over to wrest John's words at 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." They wrest John there to have said these ones were never in Christ. But all John meant is that they were not one of us who are so firmly resolved in our faith that we let nothing come between. And you can see that they were in Christ in his words at 2 John 1:8-9 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." ("abideth in" means "remain in")

I have rarely found an organized religion that does teach without error. Some more so than others. It makes me sometimes wonder if maybe Jehovah's Witnesses might be actually right about how they identify Christendom and its churches. Because its people are so scantly taught. I mean, yous seem to find it very easy to ignore the most obvious things:
Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

I did not bother with your comment on 1 Cor 3 because if you did not get the sense of it from my post 392 you just do not want to right now. You for the moment prefer to invent your own context rather than to inspect Paul's context as I showed you to do. And far be it from me to wrest with you over it.

I can answer each one. But, not all at once. Tooooooooo much.

 

[GenemZ]

Why do you feel that the Cross can not really save us?

That according to your thinking? We must end up saving ourselves in the end?

In the mean time.... God can not contradict Himself.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down
from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who
sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that
I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise
them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

That means? If anyone looses their salvation? Its Jesus who failed to do the Father's will! For its the Father's will that Jesus lose none of all the Father gives Him.

And, why would an omniscient God, who knows all things? Break the Son's heart by giving the Son a gift that the Father knows will be lost eventually?

And... no. Believers who produce dead works of wood, hay, and stubble? (false faith) Will lose eternal rewards.(a special sharing in eternal life) Not their salvation.

To think that once someone is saved, and that they can lose their salvation? Is to say that God never saves anyone! That they are not really saved until that person can save himself.

That is mocking the infallible competence of God to save.

 

[Buzz_B]

I can answer each one. But, not all at once. Tooooooooo much.

Take your time.

God slapped me a moment ago and told me why the organized churches do such a poor job of teaching. He told me that it is because they commercialize the word of God so that it sells rather than following the patterns lain forth by Christ. And as they rate the word in the form of their doctrines as a product to sell, they are unlikely to want to root out the flaws in their product (their doctrines) so long as they achieve good sales with them, increasing the incoming contributions with which they line their pockets. LOL.

 

[Buzz_B]

Why do you feel that the Cross can not really save us?

That according to your thinking? We must end up saving ourselves in the end?

In the mean time.... God can not contradict Himself.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever
comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down
from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who
sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that
I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise
them up at the last day." John 6:37-39​

That means? If anyone looses their salvation? Its Jesus who failed to do the Father's will! For its the Father's will that Jesus lose none of all the Father gives Him.

And, why would an omniscient God, who knows all things? Break the Son's heart by giving the Son a gift that the Father knows will be lost eventually?

And... no. Believers who produce dead works of wood, hay, and stubble? (false faith) Will lose eternal rewards.(a special sharing in eternal life) Not their salvation.

To think that once someone is saved, and that they can lose their salvation? Is to say that God never saves anyone! That they are not really saved until that person can save himself.

That is mocking the infallible competence of God to save.

That is pathetic post. How dare you blame Jesus for what we choose to do. And that is exactly what you are doing. You are whimpering like one of those who says to the potter, "Why did you make me this way?' Blame it on the potter. Cast total responsibility on the potter for it is all his fault. We didn't ask to be born this way. We had no choices and were helpless to sin. That is what you sound like.

Yet God justly put men to death with no hope of a righteous resurrection for about some 5,000 years or so telling them they had did wrong because they did have a choice and they used that choice to choose to do evil. You either really don't read your whole Bible or you sure have very limited retention.

It was never that man cannot do right. It was that man's heart was as stone. All God promised was to take away that heart of stone and give us a heart of a softer more workable substance for a heart which he could write his laws on.

Do you not understand the purpose of that is that a man is guided by his heart? If God does his part in softening it so that it is able to receive his word, from there do you expect he would not have us use it to guide ourselves and make better choices? Even your show of love would mean nothing if it could not be issued of your free choice.

The things you people say are amazing. Absolutely amazing.

 

[GenemZ]

Take your time.

God slapped me a moment ago and told me why the organized churches do such a poor job of teaching. He told me that it is because they commercialize the word of God so that it sells rather than following the patterns lain forth by Christ. And as they rate the word in the form of their doctrines as a product to sell, they are unlikely to want to root out the flaws in their product (their doctrines) so long as they achieve good sales with them, increasing the incoming contributions with which they line their pockets. LOL.

They do a poor job because most pastors are terrible students of the Word of God. They "fake it". Or, if they know how to study are afraid to teach in depth in fear it would bore those in their congregation seeking emotionally stimulating messages.... like we see in TV series.

My pastor who studied diligently roughly eight hours a day, and would then get himself up and drive to church to teach (daily). He taught and studied from the original languages.

He would teach sometimes more in one hour what most pastors may cover never in a year. God's got to lead you to find such a teacher. They do not advertise.

Now... How much did he charge per tape/CD?

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested.
When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege
of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine.​

God raised him up for serious students of the Word of God. Those who learned to know better than to sit around reading their Bible and speculating. Everyone from everyday people to college professors, scientists, etc.. learn from him. No charge!

 

[GenemZ]

That is pathetic post. How dare you blame Jesus for what we choose to do. And that is exactly what you are doing. You are whimpering like one of those who says to the potter, "Why did you make me this way?' Blame it on the potter. Cast total responsibility on the potter for it is all his fault. We didn't ask to be born this way. We had no choices and were helpless to sin. That is what you sound like.

Where did you just go?

You mean to say Jesus will lose some of all the Father gives him? Knowing that its the Father's will, that Jesus lose NONE of all the Father gives him? Jesus is going to fail to do the Father's will?

What the heck did the Cross accomplish in your eyes? Was it a publicity stunt to get our attention so we can learn to do works to save ourselves?

You have no idea how what you think is blasphemy. The Cross does not save us. Our works do.

 

[GenemZ]

Hebrews 6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Do you understand what that was referring to?

 

[Buzz_B]

They do a poor job because most pastors are terrible students of the Word of God. They "fake it". Or, if they know how to study are afraid to teach in depth in fear it would bore those in their congregation seeking emotionally stimulating messages.... like we see in TV series.

My pastor who studied diligently roughly eight hours a day, and would then get himself up and drive to church to teach (daily). He taught and studied from the original languages.

He would teach sometimes more in one hour what most pastors may cover never in a year. God's got to lead you to find such a teacher. They do not advertise.

Now... How much did he charge per tape/CD?

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material. No money is requested.
When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a believer to give, he has the privilege
of contributing to the dissemination of Bible doctrine.​

God raised him up for serious students of the Word of God. Those who learned to know better than to sit around reading their Bible and speculating. Everyone from everyday people to college professors, scientists, etc.. learn from him. No charge!

I visited his website a few times in the past. That began just after I first began posting on this forum and I have gone back a few times even copying things to my desktop. It is my evaluation of what he teaches that he has some good teachings and some bad teaches. He does not differ a whole lot from most others. Perhaps he will grow in knowledge and understanding more yet. I do not know. But for now he is but the common in teachings.

I was introduced to a site by a guy from England which does far better but cannot recall the name at the moment. I have some of its books on my computer but am too tired right now to pull them up. The guy's name in England is Paul. I have his personal email address to keep in touch with him. He really impressed me with his sound use of logic and excellent retention and pulling in of the Bible-wide context on various subjects. I have ate, drank and slept Bible study for so very long now that when subjects are brought up verses start coming to mind from the beginning to the end of the Bible and so I really enjoyed working with Paul. I don't call repeated rehearsing of doctrines Bible study and neither does he. What we call study is deliberately challenging our own ideas to find every fault against repeated Bible-wide reviews, deliberately looking for even the smallest text which might indicate something different. That is how one follows the counsel of Proverbs 2:1-5

 

[Buzz_B]

Where did you just go?

You mean to say Jesus will lose some of all the Father gives him? Knowing that its the Father's will, that Jesus lose NONE of all the Father gives him? Jesus is going to fail to do the Father's will?

What the heck did the Cross accomplish in your eyes? Was it a publicity stunt to get our attention so we can learn to do works to save ourselves?

You have no idea how what you think is blasphemy. The Cross does not save us. Our works do.

Jesus didn't lose those who deserted him. You are wresting what Jesus meant when he spoke of that also. You are being unrealistic. No man has taken you away from Jesus if you desert Jesus. That "no man" or "no one" is a direct reference to the robbers and thieves who try to work their way in by crawling over the wall instead of entering by the door to the sheepfold, doing so just to get at his sheep and abuse them. That is what Jesus was referencing there. he did not mean that a sheep could not prove to itself rebel against it's shepherd. Sheep obey the call of the one they see as their shepherd. If they start by free choice seeing a false Jesus or any other hooligan as their shepherd and desert Jesus he did not lose them, they lost their selves. Surely a man your age knows how to let responsibility lay where it belongs.

I mean for crying out loud, all you need do is read the messages to the seven churches in the book of Revelation and you will find things there which prove what you are saying is not true. Try it.

 

[Buzz_B]

Do you understand what that was referring to?

Yes I do and it is not to those faithless Jews who never had the holy spirit which only ever was made available in Christ. Paul is clearly speaking of ones who enter Christ, advance well for a while with the help of the holy spirit and then for one reason or another blaspheme that holy spirit. But they were a part of the body of Christ until that happened, else they could not have advanced as they did up to the point where they rebelled.

It is similar to Adam choosing to sin while he was perfect and had an intimate relationship with God.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus didn't lose those who deserted him.

I see. That's not even clever.

 

[GenemZ]

Yes I do and it is not to those faithless Jews who never had the holy spirit which only ever was made available in Christ. Paul is clearly speaking of ones who enter Christ, advance well for a while with the help of the holy spirit and then for one reason or another blaspheme that holy spirit. But they were a part of the body of Christ until that happened, else they could not have advanced as they did up to the point where they rebelled.

It is similar to Adam choosing to sin while he was perfect and had an intimate relationship with God.

No its not that.... they did have the Holy Spirit. They were committing the same sin that almost got Paul taken home early. They were reverting back to the animal sacrifices and putting the Cross of Christ in a position of public disgrace. Paul almost got himself killed doing the same thing. Its why Paul ended up under Roman chains.

 

[GenemZ]

Jesus didn't lose those who deserted him. You are wresting what Jesus meant when he spoke of that also. You are being unrealistic. No man has taken you away from Jesus if you desert Jesus. That "no man" or "no one" is a direct reference to the robbers and thieves who try to work their way in by crawling over the wall instead of entering by the door to the sheepfold, doing so just to get at his sheep and abuse them. That is what Jesus was referencing there. he did not mean that a sheep could not prove to itself rebel against it's shepherd. Sheep obey the call of the one they see as their shepherd. If they start by free choice seeing a false Jesus or any other hooligan as their shepherd and desert Jesus he did not lose them, they lost their selves. Surely a man your age knows how to let responsibility lay where it belongs.

I mean for crying out loud, all you need do is read the messages to the seven churches in the book of Revelation and you will find things there which prove what you are saying is not true. Try it.

There will crying out loud when rewards are denied. To deny the Word, is to deny the Lord.

Be that as it may. The young man in Corinth that was sleeping with his mother? If one could lose their salvation? Paul would have been screaming it from the rooftops. Never once in 1 Corinthians 5 does Paul shout that this young man will lose his salvation! If we could? Paul would have been hammering that home with a sledgehammer! Instead, we read things like this...

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people
— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral....​

Paul was speaking to believers about a believer! That they should stop associating with an immoral believer! Paul never once says that man was not saved!!!!!!!

The Cross saves completely! You don't like that? I understands how some are that way. They love to judge and seek out others who are like minded. Verbal lynch mobs.

If we could lose our salvation? The Bible would not beat around the bush. No where in the Bible does it say that if any believer does 'such and such' they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Such a serious matter would be not be left to some piecing together of passages as to make it appear that way. Its Fake News what you believe.

If we could lose our salvation, its something that would have to be plain spoken, implicit and forcefully proclaimed. Like a gigantic red light at an intersection. Like siren on a police car. Such a serious offense and mater of life and death would have to be spelled out plainly and loudly for the stupid ones who might lose their salvation by doing something stupid.
Paul never says anywhere that the immoral young man was in danger of being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If what you believe is true? Paul would have not only shouted it out. Such a warning would be plainly seen in many passages not leaving any doubt as to what it spoke of.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?(unbelievers) Are you not to judge those inside? (believers) 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the
wicked person from among you.”
​

Your version?

“Expel the wicked person from among you.” He is going to Hell!
​

 

[Buzz_B]

No its not that.... they did have the Holy Spirit. They were committing the same sin that almost got Paul taken home early. They were reverting back to the animal sacrifices and putting the Cross of Christ in a position of public disgrace. Paul almost got himself killed doing the same thing. Its why Paul ended up under Roman chains.

And your source of that information is where?

Watch out using Jewish extra-biblical writings for there is much in the way of tailored falsities with a purpose in them. Those writings are the works of those who resisted Christianity and parts of some of those works are clever attempts to confuse Christians while pretending to be amicable to Christianity. As one who was encouraged from youth on my mother's knee and up to begin learning about the languages and the history i have been made aware of so much treachery in such writings that i would be hard pressed to speak of all of them without leaving much out.

 

[Buzz_B]

There will crying out loud when rewards are denied. To deny the Word, is to deny the Lord.

Be that as it may. The young man in Corinth that was sleeping with his mother? If one could lose their salvation? Paul would have been screaming it from the rooftops. Never once in 1 Corinthians 5 does Paul shout that this young man will lose his salvation! If we could? Paul would have been hammering that home with a sledgehammer! Instead, we read things like this...

9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people
— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral....​

Paul was speaking to believers about a believer! That they should stop associating with an immoral believer! Paul never once says that man was not saved!!!!!!!

Your conclusions as regards that event almost make me weep for you.
1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Did Paul speak about that a few words later as follows, or not?:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Or do you somehow use the next verse to twist a way around what Paul there spoke to believers?:

1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

In light of Paul's words of warning there in chap. 6 verses 9 and 10, Did that man who was expelled not have to repent his "fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles" before he could be saved?

Will you now just keep clinging to your desired idea and just rush around the Scriptures in hope of finding something else to distort into support of your claim? Or will you give way to the spirit of truth and accept that comes of texts like as there at 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? It is not me you are contesting. It is the spirit on the words of God through Paul at places like as mentioned.

Romans 2:3 "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 2:5-13
5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The Cross saves completely! You don't like that? I understands how some are that way. They love to judge and seek out others who are like minded. Verbal lynch mobs.

If we could lose our salvation? The Bible would not beat around the bush. No where in the Bible does it say that if any believer does 'such and such' they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Such a serious matter would be not be left to some piecing together of passages as to make it appear that way. Its Fake News what you believe.

well you have proved the spirit of Danald Trump is working in you. LOL.

But you have not proved that the idea 'Once Saved Always Saved' is in the Scriptures. Neither the words saying that nor any other text which can be used to support the idea without twisting the text.

If we could lose our salvation, its something that would have to be plain spoken, implicit and forcefully proclaimed. Like a gigantic red light at an intersection. Like siren on a police car. Such a serious offense and mater of life and death would have to be spelled out plainly and loudly for the stupid ones who might lose their salvation by doing something stupid.
Paul never says anywhere that the immoral young man was in danger of being thrown into the Lake of Fire. If what you believe is true? Paul would have not only shouted it out. Such a warning would be plainly seen in many passages not leaving any doubt as to what it spoke of.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?(unbelievers) Are you not to judge those inside? (believers) 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
​

Your version?

“Expel the wicked person from among you.” He is going to Hell!
​

I should not even have to critique the senselessness of what you have there said, to you. If your heart desires to please God you will turn back and look at your words of your own volition, to see if your heart has been misleading you.

What I wrote in the first part of this post should help you to do that if your heart is willing.

 

[razzelflabben]

Wrong. I do believe in the indwelling of the holy spirit, foremost directly within the only pure place it can dwell (for it like God cannot dwell with unholiness) and secondly by influence upon the believer's own personal spirit so that the believer's spirit becomes as one in full communication with God's spirit. To be filled with holy spirit can and often does mean that your own spirit has been rendered holy by that influence the spirit which dwells IN the temple among the plural believers asserts upon the spirits of the believers bringing them together as one.

if you believe in the indwelling HS then you are actually agreeing with what I said by disagreeing and contradicting yourself which is very confusing. Why would you agree with me by claiming to disagree then contradict yourself? How does that equal effective communication? Then turning to what sounds like gibberish to emphasize your point?

There are many things you either have yet to learn or are just not recalling and considering into your conclusions. But I will take you through the basics of what one must know before they can really fully understand.

so now, your lack of understanding is my lack of learning...carry on

We will need to discuss the temple which existed there in Jerusalem which when Jesus prophesied that it would be torn down he made reference to his own body which would be the temple built up again in three days. The layout of that physical temple tells us much about what is taking place in Christ. Israel's physical temples were a mere foreshadow of the temple that is Christ, especially the one Jesus referenced.

exactly what I said...

We have been fed a number of falsities also about how sin influences us, but, when we correctly understand about how sin influences us externally and performs a work in us internally, we then are enabled to better understand how the holy spirit both influences us externally (among us in the body of Christ the true temple) and performs works in us internally (by bringing our personal internal spirits into oneness with it while it actually is dwelling among us). Proverbs 20:27 "The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly." And God's spirit can make that spirit of man holy so that it can be said that we are filled by holy spirit.

and....I have done extensive study in how sin affects us in fact, my current study is how Love or better said, the power of Love transforms us and it is a very interesting study. I suggest that you do just such a study so that you can understand what you apparently don't understanding about sin.

Did you know that the word "with" does not actually appear in the Greek text of Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." What it literally says is, "filled of holy spirit.." Now think about that for a second. What ever the holy spirit causes to enter us, be it the knowledge of the tongue of a different language or joy or whatever, the mere fact that we have that gift OF the holy spirit means it was what filled us. That is not the same as saying it literally indwells us. All we need is a place to find the holy spirit so as to begin our connection to it with our own spirit for that bond of oneness and to also maintenance that connection to be sure we never lose it. And that place is where it dwells among us in the temple which is the body of Christ. From the start of developing that connection it is a small matter for the holy spirit to fill us with whatever gift God wants it to and when it does we can truthfully say that we have personally been filled OF holy spirit.

iow's what you are saying is what my husband and I have said for eons now, that we don't have to follow the HS even when He is ministering to us....iow's "don't quench the Spirit".

So I'm still waiting for you to teach me something I don't already know from a careful, HS powered study of the word of God.