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Featured Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Kaylaherin, Nov 7, 2017.

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  1. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    If I did that I was most certainly wrong and I now sincerely appologize.

    The Law of Love is Christ. It and only it determines whether or not our walk is right. And that of course applies in everything we do or plan to do.

    We need to remember that the objective is to be transformed to the perfect image of Christ per 1 Corinthians 15:49 and 2 Corinthians 3:18,

    To look too intently at the Law as though it is yet our guide causes us to put on an image according to what seems right to us. We have to capture the spirit of Christ for understanding God's law perfectly is no where else found.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    and what then was the purpose of the OT law?
     
  3. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Put this with my post 341.

    The whole purpose of the law was to convict us of sin so that we would see and admit our need of Christ. Thus it was a tutor leading to Christ.

    1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
    11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
     
  4. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    exactly..if the OT law was to teach us how to live in order to be righteous before God, iow's where we fail and the NT law of Love is to teach us how to live in order to be righteous before God, iow's where we fail and need to do better...then how could the passage in Matthew 22:40 mean anything other than the OT law informs us of what is included or if you prefer, the heart of the NT law of Love?
     
  5. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    My point just to be painfully clear is that the OT law was not done away with but rather it was fulfilled. It still has a purpose in our lives today. That purpose is to inform us of what the Law of Love really means and how hard it is to really live that life that is recognized as Love.

    The study that God has called me to is Love. What I have found over the years is that very few people really understand what Biblical Love is but few are humble enough to accept that they don't understand what it means. The OT law gave way to the law of Love, they are not the same but the OT law is not obsolete.

    How that applies to the discussion at hand. Where we are not bound to the OT law it is to inform us of what the NT law of Love means and involves therefore looking at what the OT law says about self defense is valid to say the least.
     
  6. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Amen!!!
    I believe in a millennial reign which is a final judgment period of time.

    I believe that period will be free from the distractions of this present world, God having destroyed all that caused that distraction and that millennium just like the period of time Adam was living in when he chose to sin. His sin caused the time we live in. The millennium is about setting us back to the state Adam was in before he sinned and getting rid of these distractions caused of sin. Why?

    So that God sees our real and full inner desires whether they are with him or rebellious toward him.

    For now God sees us as mentally disadvantaged by the addiction of sin. Free from that in the millennial reign of Christ he will judge what we are of our own will, no addiction driving us to do what we do.
     
  7. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I'm not sure that I agree with everything you say here about the millennial period, I think there are just too many unanswered questions in scripture about the millennial period but I believe you may or may not be right about it...
     
  8. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    LOL! I like you. I have to respect that honesty as I see no way around it.

    What you will eventually learn about me is that I have quite literally gave up my life to live for Christ and I do absolutely nothing else.

    I do not fret about what is happening around us because I am in a very secure spot. Not because i am some wis of thinking ability, but because my faith is as complete as certainty and I do not have to labor what will be.

    I am basically a very stupid man. And I used to give way to much desperation. I am not a man that scorns people because they use (so-called) cus words. To me that is but natural and nute as to whether or not sin.

    I try to look at the more important things and not undermine them with pettiness.
     
  9. genez

    genez Contributor

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    Here....

    20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

    To a Jew he became a as Jew. Not Jewish! He made that mistake once, and he came close to costing him his life when he went back into the Temple to offer a purification rite. The Jews saw him and tried to kill him. That happened because James and his men talked him into becoming "Jewish" as to win over the Jews.. (its why he entered into chains and as a Roman prisoner) God punished Paul for that.

    When in Rome you do as the Romans. Paul was about his "approach" to different kinds of people. When someone is a car salesman (hate to use this analogy) he will treat the customer wearing the Jets hat one way, and the one looking like a professor another. he will show certain features to the mother who wants something to transport her kids with,,, etc.

    :scratch: I am trying to make a correlation here... with...
    Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)


    Start a new thread. But, not here please.


    “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house,
    his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

    Jesus Christ said that.

    How long does it take to get through to some here? They keep putting it off and stalling by sidetracking to the "what ifs". Or, other things unrelated. This thread is an example as to why Jesus said that out of all who believe only few will find it. We have it right before our eyes, folks. Some here argue like a liberal lawyer who refuses to accept reality.
     
  10. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Thank you genez.

    You are not the genez I know in Rayland Ohio are you?

    Edit: If so, I am Laura's dad and I lived with you a little while.
     
  11. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    amen...I would also say that I am very secure and in total Love with my Lord and King. I came to Christ when I was 6 and have never looked back even once...in fact let me tell you a story I think you might find encouraging. At one point in my life (could tell you a couple of interesting stories but this one is applicable to this post) when I was away at college a friend and I decided to go to the church to pray. When we got there, we decided to take off our shoes and stand on holy ground. Before we could get half way down the isle we both fell to our knees in worship because the Spirit of God was so present that we had no other choice. It wasn't that we were forced to our knees but that there was no other choice. That glimpse of God has been so powerful in my life that it (and a few other stories) have carried me through some of the toughest most difficult things you can imagine. Yes there are others who have endured more but some of the things I have been asked by God to do would blow your mind but that is okay because God is still Lord of all especially my life.

    Nice to meet you and talk with you.
     
  12. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I thought that maybe I should suggest how the above story can be applied to the OP topic. God is always with us whether or not we "feel" like He is. No matter what situation we find ourselves in, God promises to give us wisdom if we ask Him for it. James 1:5...the promise is that if we lack wisdom and ask God for it, it is given generously without finding fault....before anyone goes off on a tangent, yes we must ask in faith believing without doubt...so back to point...if we are in a situation in which someone's life is being threatened, all we have to do is ask God to give us the wisdom to know how to handle the situation. Given what scripture says about it, we can rest in the answer He gives no matter what happens because His promise is wisdom when we ask and a promise of God is not taken lightly. He is whether we feel Him there or not and He is faithful to what He promises no matter how we feel about it and in that we can rest.

    Again, based on the context of the passages given, we should if finding ourselves in a situation like discussed, pray that God would show us how to handle it then simply rest in the answer and not beat ourselves up with whatever happens as a result of that.

    As to owning a weapon for protection. I have always had a problem with people who own weapons or dogs for the purpose of protection for that shows a fear which is a lack of trust in God. However, owning a weapon or a dog and them being used for protection is a very different matter which again comes down to what God says if we truly believe God as we try to claim that we do.
     
  13. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    I feel as you express. It seems quite simple to me that the escalation of killing has happened through such modern mechanisms as guns and that is enough for me to hate them. Many have the same love that Nimrod had. That was not a righteous love.
    Genesis 10:9 "He was a mighty hunter before YHWH: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before YHWH. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel,...'

    here is where you may part from me. All my spiritual instincts are presently telling me that the United States is soon to be nuked. The United States fits every bill of man's attempt to rebuild the tower of Babel.
     
  14. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    first off, I don't hate guns...I am pretty much indifferent to them in that it is the heart of the one who has a gun that should be our concern. In fact, there have been a couple of times around here I wish we had a gun...Both were for coons but still....guns are tools that just like a sword can be used for good or bad, out of fear or out of trust. I personally think it is just as misplaced to hate guns as it is to have one out of fear. IOW's it is sinful to fear man especially to the point of owning a gun but isn't it just as sinful to hate a tool that can be used for good or bad while forgetting about the heart of the one who has the weapon? Personal opinion for what it's worth.
    I have been saying for years now that persecution is coming to the US. I wouldn't say that we are attempting to rebuild the tower of Babel but I will say that we in the US are running into the arms of Satan and his will rather than the arms of God and His will. As such things will go wrong for us, very wrong and we won't be able to do anything to recover. Our only hope is to humble ourselves, confess our sins and repent in great sorrow. That being said, the nation as a whole seems plagued with the same sin that the individual man battles, that of pride. We as a nation have been on top and blessed for so long that we have forgotten that God is the one who brought us to that point and He certainly is able to take us from it whether He does so by withdrawing His favor and giving us over to our depravity or whether He exercises His wrath directly.
     
  15. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    Let me say the above a different way and see if that makes even more sense....the one who has a gun out of fear that they might need it to protect themselves, their family, their friend, their possessions is living in worldly fear and not the fear of the Lord. If we fear guns how are we doing anything different? We are still living in fear that is the worlds making and not in the fear of the Lord. I refuse to live in this worldly fear.

    After our son died in 2010 I went through a season where I was afraid that the rest of the kids would die...living in that fear was horrible and so I cast it off....aka crucified that fear and retreated to the fear of the Lord so that I could be set free.
     
  16. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Yes, you are right.

    I guess it is the misuse (the unjustified killing of any kind of life, animal or man) and the carelessness of many that have them which jeopardizes others (especially our children) that I hate. And the sight of a gun reminds me of that. Every time I see one I remember standing face to face with my 4 year old grandson with that 9mm in his hands as if it were a toy.

    My only natural daughter (the mother of the grandson I mentioned) died at the age of 37 last October 20, 2015, the result of a cocaine addiction which over time took a toll on her heart. She had gone with friends to vacation in Fort Wayne Florida and was found dead in her motel room of a blood pressure event caused of cocaine. Both she and the man she was formerly married to who owned all sorts of guns were what is called 'functioning addicts.' They appeared quite normal in their daily lives and so had all the privileges of sober people. And that is not uncommon in America, meaning that many who own guns, just as they, are likely also closet addicts whose addiction takes control of their better sense in subtle ways and at unpredictable moments.

    I also hate drugs for that reason. But as you said about guns, these same drugs do have legitimate uses in medicine. Cocaine is sometimes used in eye surgery. (edit: it is the abuse I hate)

    The Scriptures tell us to hate what is bad and cling (by love) to what is good. That well lays out for us the proper use of hate as a deterrent within ourselves to keep us far away from bad.

    I am not prophesying that the USA will definitely be nuked nor am I saying that it definitely is a replication of the Tower of Babel. I certainly hope it won't be. I like what you said about it and fully agree with you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  17. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    just to add to the discussion...one of the coons I was telling you about was diseased...if we hadn't found a way to kill it it would have infected all kinds of animals which would have been harmful to lots of people. Not all killing is about just shooting something to have something to do or show power over.

    That being said, I can understand where you are coming from, that would have been a very scary thing to be part of but it comes back to the reason for the gun...as I said, some uses are justifiable. Some have them for food...we have friends who hunt deer for food and that is about all the meat they ever eat...which btw, deer meat is good stuff.
    which is why I believe that we should be more concerned with the heart that God wants to mend and transform than the guns that are nothing more than tools. Any untimely death is a tragedy and one of many reasons we didn't have guns previously was our kids and the danger they are...that being said, for centuries in this country alone families owned guns and taught their children from birth to use them wisely and respect the power that they have.

    BTW, I am really sorry for your loss we lost our son 7ish years ago to a freak swimming accident. A parent shouldn't have to bury a child. It's a pain that never fully goes away.
    amen
    I want to officially thank you for the discussion...it is refreshing to my soul and mind.
     
  18. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    I believe that for a man to justify killing another man, whether in war or in a self-defense situation, there is a judgment which must take place allowing them in their mind to devalue the value of the other person's life. We need to look at ourselves to examine the reality of our judgments, whether they be godly or self-serving.

    Similarly, if we value all life as the precious gift of God we could not kill animals just for the sport of it. I like deer meat. And I live on a meager income so I have seen times when my table would have been bare but for deer meat. But when we already have plenty I wonder whether killing just to satisfy a craving for deer meat is not an act of selfishness. Of course we also have to keep the deer population low enough that they have enough food in the wild. Our artificial way of life threatens them both by consuming their natural terrain and making it difficult for them to relocate so as to forage for themselves without getting clobbered by an automobile. In that way we have planned for ourselves but not really given adequate consideration to them in our plans, thus not exercising godly dominion over them the way that we are supposed to.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  19. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    as I read this post I smile...in my mind the words you are saying indicate that you are in line with PETA or at least on that end of the spectrum. That may be a wrong impression just the impression I get from this post.

    Personally, I think there is a very fine line between protecting our environment ad it's life producing food and becoming obsessed. For example and I know this is a bit off topic but it gets my point across I think. Long story but my health is failing at an alarming rate largely because of the GMO's and chemicals that plague our environment today. Basically I am being slowly poisoned everyday and no one takes notice in fact, large sums of money are being spent to keep it from being recognized. Now I could go all ban GMO's and chemicals but I think that is seriously the wrong approach. You see, if we look back in Gen. God gave us the "problems" with growing our own food because man sinned. IOW's the weeds and such that we are trying to eliminate from our environment and crops are put there by God to remind us that we should not sin. The curse of sin has become our greatest enemy so to speak and one that we want to get rid of. Like a child who is grounded for doing something wrong and then sneaks out of the house to avoid the grounding, we are spending all of our time trying to get rid of the punishment that is meant to remind us instead of using it to remind us that we need God.

    Likewise, death is the consequence of sin. All death is somehow related to sin entering our world. But we, like that defiant child spend all our time trying to find ways to stop death that we forget to allow it to remind us that we need a Savior. What would happen if when we shot that deer for food we were reminded that we need a Savior? Now I agree with you about unnecessary killing but my point is this, even that goes back to the heart of man not the act itself. It's about a shift in our perspective, our thinking. I am not suggesting we go out and kill anyone or anything what I am suggesting is that we shift our thinking from what the world says the issue is to what God says the issue is and in that discover a truth that we couldn't have imagined otherwise.

    It's a horrible thing for death to come for us when we were created to be eternal but it is also horrible to waste food when others are starving, or for us to have warm houses when some are living on snow covered streets, and the list goes on. We tend to take up a cause and justify our reasons for that cause rather than teaching Christ despite our reason for the cause we are fighting.
     
  20. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    You impress me as a very sound (calm and deliberate) thinker. I on the other hand can find that I have times where my thinking can get a bit wobbly. I am not really familiar with PETA but looked it up per your mention of it. I have not taken more than a quick look at it, however. But I do believe that our ethics need to be consistently applied in life else it becomes too easy to turn them off and on in relation to those who might offend us.

    I picked up a kitten from the outdoors and brought it in to care for it as it appeared to be dying. It was about 6 weeks old and I took it to the vet to get instructions on how to care for a cat that young that was being eaten alive by fleas. They gave me a special comb and I began by holding its body in a bath of lukewarm water so as to drown the fleas as much as possible and then I combed it regularly each day until I got rid of all signs of eggs and dirt. The life bounced right back into the little guy and he was so rambunctious that I found my patience with him being hard pressed. After about another month I took him and got his shots, (which was much more expensive than I could really afford), and he tested free of feline leukemia and other common diseases but I just could not keep him because he was now so active and learning to use his claws. So I gave him away but it has kind of left me feeling bad about myself like there is something wrong with me. And wouldn't ya know that I could not stand his romping and tearing my furniture but I miss him now that he is gone. I am a contradiction. That was just a few days ago that I gave him to a new home.

    I agree with you that we spin our wheels to fight the bad any other way than letting it remind us to move closer to Christ.
     
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