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Featured Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Kaylaherin, Nov 7, 2017.

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  1. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    not sure what this debate over Matthew 5 is about as it pertains to the topic at hand but I will point out that context is not just the immediate passage but the totality of scripture as well.

    So for example, we looked at the context of both Peter cutting off the ear of the soldier and the instruction to buy a sword. From that context we learn something about self defense but it isn't a complete teaching without the rest of scripture about turning the other cheek and who our enemies are. As previously pointed out the context of "turn the other cheek" is general and not specific at all as some here tried to make it about the Government at the time, wrong! As to who our enemies are, again this was brought up but some of you all appeared to be afraid of the context. If we look up enemy in scripture what we discover is that the enemy is anyone trying to pull us away from God...iow's those that hate God. Which is very different from what most want to call an enemy. Of course you have some OT specific examples but again those "enemies" are trying to separate the individual or people from God and His calling on their lives. So, in the above passage about the enemies being of the same household it is referring to those that want to drive us from Christ even if they are family. Kind of like the passage that tells us to hate our father and mother. It doesn't mean hate them the way many want to interpret it but in context it means to Love God more than your family. Even to the point of leaving family behind if that should become necessary.

    IOw's context is both the immediate context and the totality of scripture which seems to be a problem for many on this thread.
     
  2. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    word study means that we go back and look at the original word used and determine what the intent of that word is...for those that don't know what word study is...a quick word study of the word meek means this...
    mildness of disposition, gentleness of spirit, meekness

    Meekness toward God is that disposition of spirit in which we accept His dealings with us as good, and therefore without disputing or resisting. In the OT, the meek are those wholly relying on God rather than their own strength to defend against injustice. Thus, meekness toward evil people means knowing God is permitting the injuries they inflict, that He is using them to purify His elect, and that He will deliver His elect in His time (Isa 41:17, Luk 18:1-8). Gentleness or meekness is the opposite to self-assertiveness and self-interest. It stems from trust in God's goodness and control over the situation. The gentle person is not occupied with self at all. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, not of the human will (Gal 5:23).

    Now notice that there is nothing about self defense in the understanding of the word only injustice. The believer is told to be just so this would be a big deal in helping to understand what that command entails.
    Historical reference does very little to our understanding of this passage for the context as previously pointed out does not about the government but about people in general. But also notice in the context there is not a threat to life only to discomfort. This is a huge important detail when it comes to the issue of the OP.
     
  3. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I have no issue with guns, from squirt guns, rubber band guns, rubber pellet guns, to shot guns and pistols, etc.

    Some are eye appealing as works of art, some are in the bottom of a toy box and some are used for food for ones table, and some are used for defending ones family against criminals.

    They all have a design for application that a situation warrants.

    I find the controversy is steeped in the same fashion most controversies are ~
    One doesn't like or want something ~ thus they spend an enormous amount to time trying to KEEP others from HAVING what "they" do like and want.

    We can understand covertness, or not wanting what others have....

    But seriously, how twisted, to say, I don't want something, SO THEREFORE, I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE, what I DON'T WANT!

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  4. genez

    genez Contributor

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    When believers were told they were no longer under the law -- (IF they were led of the Spirit. ) It was written at a time when the Temple and the Levitical priesthood were still functioning.

    We need to get the context and it will no longer seem like a "moot point." It shows that we will face such things in our own way. Such as Denominational dictates that demand and fence what a believer can believe... no matter what the Scriptures may have to say on the matter that contradicts their denomination's corrupted bias.
     
  5. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    The idiomatic phrase, "under the law" is dealing with ones GUILT... you are no longer under the law or guilty and worthy of death. You are now "under grace" or forgiven and given the gift of life. "Under the law" has nothing to do with keeping or not keeping God's commandments.

    I am not part of a denomination... only was for 2 years out of my 22 year walk.
     
  6. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    What everyone seems to be missing as to the OT law applied to this topic is that that OT law would have been the same law that Jesus had been taught and held to as well as the law He would have understood His disciples to be trying to follow. So unless the teaching in question says something to the effect of "the old law said X but I am saying Y" the old law should still inform our conclusions. Notice I said inform...iow's I'm not saying we are under the OLD LAW what I am saying is that the Law is our teacher.
     
  7. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, yes, in practice I’d do the same in an extreme case like that, I think. It’s hard to imagine not reacting violently if someone attacked a member of my family. But, I’m not so sure it is such a clear cut issue biblically.
     
  8. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    The Exodus verse is hinting at it that way. It specifically says that if one comes into your home "at night" that you can pull the trigger (so to speak) but that "during the day" this isn't the case. I hope never to be put in that situation, that's all I can say.
     
  9. genez

    genez Contributor

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    The Chinese have a saying.... a word can have a thousand different meanings, depending upon how it was said.

    The Greek and Hebrew languages had modifiers for words that could totally change emphasis and intent. Reading words studies are a help, but can be totally misleading as well.

    Only someone who knows how to speak the languages is qualified to extract exact meanings when that would be critical in getting what was intended correctly.

    In my early years I spent many hours trying to scour word studies and Bible dictionaries in two different Bible college libraries... and in my time of travels stopping at different Christian bookstores to search their reference book shelves....

    Nothing beats learning from men whom God has chosen to dedicate their life to studying and teaching. Nothing. Some think they are qualified and become quite jealous and upset when they are finally exposed to the few God had reserved for himself to benefit the body of Christ. Benefit in a time that "many" are functioning as self satisfied ... self appointed... and inspired by spirits that counterfeit being the Holy Spirit. We are in a gigantic war. Real war. Not make believe war. The self satisfied are causalities of this war. We should all do our personal study. But, very few should ever teach others. We can teach a thing or two, here and there. But, not in the position of being a teacher.

    Here is what we are now facing...


    1 Timothy 4:3

    "For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
    Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a
    great number
    of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

    A large number of lousy teachers. Marketing experts who instinctively know what a segment of the body of Christ "prefer" to hear. Opportunists. They sell a product and market it by distorting God's Word to make it sound like what a particular believer with certain natural inclinations wants to hear.

    That is why Jesus said we must take up our own cross and deny self if we are to follow him! He was the Word made flesh! He insulted. He infuriated. He did not spare anyone's arrogant feelings. Yet, He was the Truth. Unless one can accept correction? And, then take their erroneous thinking to their own cross and deny themselves of having their pride satisfied? They will not be true disciples of him. They will be marketing opportunists selling a false doctrinal product that will be snapped up by folks craving junk food.

    Paul warned Timothy that there would be a great number of teachers who will not be genuinely teaching sound doctrine. Some are more obvious than others.

    James tells us that when the Holy Spirit has his way with believers we would find only a very few teachers amongst us. Not many. Paul said that there will be many who teach what is not sound doctrine!

    "For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.
    Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a

    great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

    James tells us?


    "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because
    you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." Ja 3:1

    Many are teaching believers walking in their flesh what their flesh wants to believe. Its the gimmick most preachers follow today. They learn the system of what people want to create their theological product... and in doing so find a way win approval of by others and even to make a means for living. That is, if they are not some self depriving type who by nature who teaches we are to all suffer for Christ at all times.... And sadly, their teaching guarantees they will always suffer.
     
  10. genez

    genez Contributor

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    They remain worthy of death. They are simply no longer executed because the law was only applicable for the land of Israel. Other nations may adapt these laws where they are beneficial to the well being of the order and peace. But, certain crimes under the Law never stopped being worthy of death.

    Things that condemned a person to death under the civil law... (not the religious| still remain worthy of death. In other words? If you want to work on the Sabbath you are not worthy any longer of death. But, for laws of civil discourse that condemned certain acts the worthiness remains. Such as murder and rape. And, other things demanding capital punishment under the Law.

    "Although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things
    are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to
    those who practice them."
    Rom 1:32​

    Not being the law of the land outside of Israel did not stop God from seeing certain evils of men from being 'worthy" of death. By grace some believers can escape at times from death they were worthy of if we repent.
     
  11. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    No, being "under the law" means we have sinned against God and are worthy of death. Being "under grace" means we have been forgiven... it has nothing to do with being in the land of Israel. It is dealing with the fallen condition of man.
     
  12. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    lol one of the first rules taught elementary students learning to read for comprehension yet few people (like yourself) ever apply that to their reading.
    lol yep which is why I only offered a quick version as I stated...lol you really aren't very good at communication much less teaching are you?
    wait a moment...I told you I was dedicated to study and teaching and you told me that I needed to learn from a teacher now you are saying that those dedicated to study and teaching are the teachers we should learn from....lol you dear sir are not good at this stuff at all... lol....oh well, carry on.
    amen...which is why you seem to have such a problem with what I am saying but refuse to address the points I am making, because you falsely think you are some great teacher called by God to put me in my place...whereas I think I am nothing even though God has called me to full time study and prayer and teaching and I take that calling seriously. You see, scripture tells us how we know when someone is a false teacher and when they are not...(false teacher meaning those you talk about here that are not ordained by God but think they are) the way is to test...your silences testifies to the fact that what I am saying is from God and not man because if it were not you would have something to argue other than things that I have already said about how to study.
    yep...just as some ;) here are trying to do by ignoring the context of the passage as well as the totality of scripture in exchange for trying to silence those of us who are speaking directly from scripture....;)
    which is why your refusal to address the context I presented is so problematic because it shows you to be too full of pride and arrogance to be effectively used by God to spread the gospel of truth. See, it's really a simple thing to set aside your pride long enough to address points presented...it's prideful and arrogant to refuse to address those points in exchange for trying to belittle another as you keep trying to do with me.
    you mean like some of the posts on here that you make where you assert things into the biblical text that is NOT there? ;)
    which is why your refusal to address the context and word study I point out is so troubling because it makes you look like one of the teachers catering to itching ears and I was really hoping you were not one of them.
     
  13. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    This post well typifies what you have done to many in this thread, When you have no reasonable answer you turn to defamation as your defense ignoring what they have said in the bulk of their posts.

    Do you not know that remembering the things the poster has said to you in his or her previous posts (called, “understanding in context”) makes their current statements able to be understood as they intended? Do you have memory problems? I know I sometimes do, due to age, so I cannot fault you for that. Or, is it that you just be come so fixated on your interpretation of certain of their thoughts which irritate you that you block all else they have said out of your mind?

    If you would only care to think, you know I have stated in previous posts that self-defense is permissible. And I have not once said that it is a sin to own a gun. I have only said that it is wrong to love guns because that is idolatry. Unless you are a Jehovah's Witness the fact that guns can be idols does not mean you cannot have one in the proper frame of mind which does not see nor depend upon it as your savior. I have found that in many cases Jws seem to blame the object for being used as an idol and make it as taboo rather than teaching others the balance view which Paul voiced when he said, “... we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.” 1 Corinthians 8:4

    In post 306 I stated, “It would be a good thing if you could confine guns to those who truly needed the protection and had the wisdom to use them properly and only when absolutely necessary but it has not worked out that way.”

    If you interpret that as saying guns are forbidden you are looking for what I say through dark eyes rather than caring to understand.

    Throughout this thread you have said many things I agree with and many things I disagree with. I have deliberately chosen to ignore trying to correct you on much of what you have said that I disagree with, such as when you spoke about Greek prepositions, for I felt that to do so was not important to the subject at hand.

    If you go back and review the pages of this thread you will find that you were the first to mention war and defending the country but when I began to comment on some of what you had said, in your post 305 you made out like I had introduced that aspect of this topic and blasted me for it.

    You are indeed a piece of work, genez. But I reckon that we all are in one way or another. This being imperfect business isn't easy, is it. LOL.

    I am sure you will in your way.

    I hope nothing but the best for you. :)
     
  14. genez

    genez Contributor

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    You must be in bliss...
     
  15. genez

    genez Contributor

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    I am not ignoring. You can not respond with twenty points and expect one to be remembered. But, if you pick at least one pertinent point? Perhaps... that could be used as a building block. Too many words said causes one to remember none.
     
  16. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    I will try to be mindful of that from now on. Thank you for that response. It is a useful reply.
     
  17. genez

    genez Contributor

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    Grace is God giving us ability where we are too weak and unable to perform as God desires of us. Its "enabling" by the Spirit. Now? Grace is not God's propitiation and atonement as you have confused it to somehow mean.

    "But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power
    is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more
    gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me."
    2 Cor 12:9​

    Atonement (the Cross) paid the price for sins. Not grace.

    Grace simply enables and makes us able to understand that truth.
     
  18. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 9:20 “And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;”

    Some claim that Paul remained yet under and obeyed aspects of the Old Law or 'Mosaic Law Covenant'. Yet, if that were true, then, why would Paul say what he said at 1 Corinthians 9:20? How could he become a Jew if that be what he already was? The obvious answer is that after Paul's conversion, Paul no longer considered himself as living for his fleshly heritage as a Jew under any part of that Old Law Covenant. Paul considered that man who was the Jew, now dead, and his life hidden in Christ that he could rise to live only for the spirit of the risen Christ.

    Yet there are some who insist further that Christ rose in his body of flesh and is still a Jew by flesh. And they rationalize that this thus would mean that Paul was able to yet maintain his Jewish heritage. But that is but a false rationalization, for, the Bible tells us: 1 Peter 3:18 “Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in<[literally “after”] the spirit;”

    So why did we see that to onlookers it appeared that Christ rose bodily with his flesh? Evidently the reason Christ told Mary Magdalene, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father” (John 20:17)was that Christ was in a process of being translated out of the flesh body and back to the spirit body he had prior to his coming to earth as a man.

    We know that Christ's body of flesh was not allowed of God to see corruption and so there is no reason not to believe that he was first resurrected in the same body of flesh that he died with. However, if Christ continued to live in that fleshly body then it would be untrue that his body was sacrificed. One does not get to keep what is given up in sacrifice. Hold that thought as I continue on.

    Who really sacrificed that flesh and blood body of Christ? Was it those who momentarily killed that body? No, for our bodies are not beyond God's power to resurrect, even as Lazarus was resurrected.

    Who does the Scriptures say sacrificed Christ's body of flesh and blood? Ephesians 5:2 “and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.”

    Christ committed no sin and thus had every right to life in the flesh as did the perfect Adam before sin. But Christ willing gave that life in the flesh up that God could take of its value and distribute its life to us who had no life in us as we were dead by Adam's sin and our own sins. That is why it would be extremely disrespectful of us now to refuse to stop living for our fleshly bodies so that we can accept to live the life that Christ gave for us.

    Galatians 3:28 “There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.”

    I hope this helps but I will leave it to all of you to figure out how it helps using your knowledge of the Scriptures along with it.
     
  19. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I would be much more "blissful" if you would address the context that I brought up as it applies to the topic of discussion...but I fear that you are too bent on being an accuser of the brethren to address context of the passages entered into discussion.
     
  20. razzelflabben

    razzelflabben Contributor

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    I would like to ask you a question. Previously you refused to address the issue of the OT law vs. the law of Love and how they are part of one another because according to you it was off topic. I disagree that it is off topic but that is another matter. How does anything in this post address the OP question? If we are going to avoid certain discussions because they do not apply to the OP question why not all topics that do not apply?
     
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