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Featured Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Kaylaherin, Nov 7, 2017.

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  1. genez

    genez Contributor

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    A guy who refused to have a gun to protect his brother with when his brother was attacked.
     
  2. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    One does not always need a gun to protect others. During my lifetime I on two different occasions found myself in a position to save woman who were in the process of being violently raped and I did not have a gun.

    The first time I had gotten out of my car and was walking near a cornfield and heard a woman's screams in the field. So I entered the cornfield traveling the direction of her screams and got to them while she was yet trying to fight him off. In that case he broke off the attack the moment he saw me and I was able to escort her out of the field and drove her home. Per her wishes I did not report it. She evidently knew the guy. I tried to convince her that she should report him but when she resisted that idea I didn't press the matter, just leaving it up to her and letting her know that I was willing to testify on her behalf. She never did report it.

    The second time I was on my way into a building at night and heard a woman's muffled screams coming from between it and the building next to it in the narrow gap. I rushed back into the gap and that time picked the guy up bodily and hurled him to the ground some feet away, knocking the wind out of him. I took advantage of his having the wind knocked out of him to take his weapon away. He had a knife which he was using to threaten the woman into submission. And don't you know that she knew the guy and so did not want it reported, even telling me she would side with him and just call me a liar if I reported it. What would she have done to me if I had killed him?

    The only hope of cleaning this mess up is the angels themselves slaying the wicked. That is going to take place. In the mean time I will gladly endure words spoken without knowledge. I have sympathy toward your panic and understand why you feel compelled to take God's wrath into your own hands.

    James 1:19-20 "Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God."
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  3. genez

    genez Contributor

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    You therefore know its always going to happen that way. Great.
     
  4. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    You are right. It is does not always happen that way. But the only way there will be an end to all such things is for God himself to end it by means of divine retribution.

    There are many more ways of breaking God's laws and losing out on being a part of his new creation than just being a criminal. It puzzles many when they hear me say that there are many who by man's estimation are quote unquote, “good people”, who will not be saved. And sadly many such ones believe that they are saved. The problem is that they are judging the matter by human wisdom, having been taught a good deal of errant doctrine since the “strong delusion” began centuries ago.

    It is really rather easy to prove doctrines such as 'once saved always saved' are very obviously not supported in the Scriptures. Being as this thread is not about that subject I won't go into it here, but, if you would like to engage that subject and want me to participate, just begin a thread on it and direct me to it.

    We see Psychologists like Dr. Phil frequently having to tell people that while he understands their intentions are good their procedures are wrong. Often man's procedures only end up causing new problems while doing very little to correct the problem that was being targeted in the first place.

    Nations are not much different than those women I spoke of saving from being raped. Often time when the USA devastates another nation's enemies in the name of a treaty with them, we are not appreciated for having done so. They often see us as barbarians. And they really only enter into treatise with us as a means to appease what they feel is a monster. All our efforts do is create ill-will in the world.

    The nations of this earth are not nearly as ignorant as they are often treated by politicians. They can see that the spread of the major causes of pollution in the 20th and 21st centuries have been the product of the USA's push to spread Democracy by Industrialization. We can see other countries that also contribute greatly to polluting this earth but they most always do so using technology they bought into through the USA.

    What has Industrialization done for crime? People are made dependent upon artificial systems through a commercial giant and when their jobs disappear int the name of technical progress they turn to whatever means they can find to survive. Often that means they turn to crime, even if only in the form of subtle dishonesty such is used heavily in the commercial world. Laws concerning truth in advertising have become a joke, for they do little to protect us from commercial fraud. And the truth is that our government turns a blind eye toward much of it knowing that such dishonest business serves to create a measure jobs even though those jobs be built on less than honest principles. And so we dismiss the wrong they do, saying to ourselves, “Oh, that is just business. You can't blame people for trying to make money. We should be happy they are trying to work and contribute to our economy.” So we see those people working those jobs as fine upstanding citizens who are OK in our book and we believe that the many of them who claim to be saved of Christ are saved of Christ.

    What a mess. The blind have never been so blind. They took away our acre of land because industrialization became boosted by war. They point to times like the “Dust Bowl” period in the USA to justify it while the truth is that our lack of wisdom in farming techniques and deforestation were the real culprits and what should have been focused on correcting. Instead our greedy commercial element saw the opportunity to horde farming away from the little man by selling us a bunch of half truths and outright lies.

    Let him who kills perceived criminals keep on killing. He will have to. It will never end nor even get better that way. You have been doing it that way for quite some time now and the problem is now escalating faster than before.
     
  5. genez

    genez Contributor

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    Again... OK.. that's all fine. But, its not what this thread is about.

    Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

    What the heck does all you have to say have anything to do with dealing with what we must face with courage in the world until the Lord returns?

    Having a gun is not a first resort. Never said it was. Its your back up if all else fails, or your first resort if its a matter of seconds to save yourself from what appears to be threatening your life.

    By the looks of your picture you might be around 240 pounds and maybe close to six feet tall. Or, very stocky and strong. What they heck are you doing raising yourself up as the role model for such cases when a 90 pound woman might need some day need to fight off a man of your stature who looks like he wants to do her bodily harm?

    Should she pick the guy up bodily? And hurl him to the ground some feet away, knocking the wind out of him? :scratch:

    Stop denying the reality for others... and it looks like you might even be using this as an excuse to brag about your own physical ability to fight.

    Guns were created as the equalizer for those too weak to fight off those who wish them harm. And, there will always be someone stronger and meaner that we can not resist, even if we can fight.

    Guns are to be a last resort. But they are not to be denied leaving the helpless to become easy prey for those who like the way you reason. They wish everyone would agree with you....
     
  6. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Nor is it that I completely disagree with you but we have entered a stage of gun frenzy which makes us all less safe.

    It would be a good thing if you could confine guns to those who truly needed the protection and had the wisdom to use them properly and only when absolutely necessary but it has not worked out that way.

    My daughter is deceased now since October 20, 2015 but she was married to a man at one time who is an avid gun collector. He had been through all the necessary training but lacked the wisdom to be consistent in his application of it. I walked through the open garage door to find myself standing face to face with my then four year old grandson pointing a loaded cartridge 9mm pistol at me. I got it from him without any problem only because he had the safety on while playing shoot-em-up with it. And my son-in-law and my daughter were both upstairs in the house with no idea that my grandson was in the cellar playing with his dad's guns. He had left his gun case standing open!

    It was not long later that my son-in-law called me and asked me to go to his place to get his chevy truck and drive out to a resort they were at where they were having trouble with the vehicle they had taken. When I got there to his home to get the truck I found the windows down and doors unlocked on his truck sitting there in his driveway with that same loaded 9mm pistol laying out in the open on the hump in front of the shifter. Any neighborhood kid would have had access to it!

    Do I hate guns? Yes, you better believe I hate guns and I do not have much affection for those who love guns. I don't see it necessary to love guns even if one finds it necessary to have one for reasonable self-defense. The love of guns is idolatry.

    Edit: By the way, FYI now I am 215 lbs and 5' 8". At the time of the first woman in the corn field I was yet in my teens about 4 or 5 years after I myself had been beaten and raped by the two high school seniors and I was 5' 6" 125 lbs. By the time of the woman between the buildings I had been working out and in self-defense training, and had gained about 20 more pounds of muscle but I was not yet married and so even that was before I was 19 years of age. I married when I was about to turn 20 and had all my children by that one woman. She ditched me for a man she fell in love with at her place of employment.

    Now I am a defenseless old man with rheumatoid arthritis and balance problems from being knocked in the head so many times during life, LOL. I would like to think I could yet defend myself being as my legs are bad and I couldn't run from anyone, LOL. That is life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You're still trying to reason around the evidence. Jesus gave a command, 'love you enemies'. He didn't give any conditions or exceptions. The one example we have of a Christian using violence to defend someone in the Scriptures is Peter and Jesus told him to put away his sword. Paul was stoned with his disciples present and we see no mention of anyone trying to defend him with force. The first 300 years of Christian history is filled with Christian leaders forbidding the use of violence. As I said early on in this thread, many Christians don't like this and try hard to get around it. I've yet to see anyone make a valid argument from Scripture for the use of violence. That's not say that they haven't proof texted a bunch of Scripture passages, but none has presented a coherent teaching.
     
  8. genez

    genez Contributor

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    Its not less safe. Considering the millions who do own hand guns and all we get on the news are a very few people would have been institutionalized years ago before we did away with mental institutions to keep such people off the streets. Now they give them drugs and let them lose. Religious fanatics are walking Kamikaze bombers. That's war.

    Millions of Americans own guns. Millions. Only crazies and criminals are being exploited by the media to get us to disarm? Why? One world government power lusters do not like men to have freedom. They want total control.

    The United States was founded upon the principle as to what you called "gun frenzy." Today its the only free nation on earth that helps keep others free. Japan during WWll would have invaded the west coast if it were not for so many of her citizens owning guns. Nazi Germany removed the right to own guns to Jews right before the crack down took place.

    Its normal and perfectly healthy to be able to arm yourself. Its the liberal media that has been creating extra shifts working overtime in trying to get people to think its a frenzy. They will never tell us about all the lives that have been saved by citizens who were able to protect themselves.

    "Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream,
    put them in the pouch of his shepherd's bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine."
    1 Sam 17:40​

    Five stones.. Today David might have used something like a S&W J Frame. Small like David was, when he faced the giant.

    Why didn't God have David "pray" Goliath into death? After all, Israel was shown the parting of the Red Sea. They had the faith to know the power of God. God is telling us something. Because our self defense is what angels watch as they must yet fight the degenerate criminally minded fallen angels. The Bible lets us know these things.... For a reason.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  9. genez

    genez Contributor

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    But he did offer some clarification...... Matthew 10:36


    "and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ "

    34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That's a completely different event and context from Jesus' statement in Mathew 5. However, it doesn't bear on the subject. If a man's enemies are his household then he has to love them too.
     
  11. genez

    genez Contributor

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    Ohhh! I see. "Context?"

    How about the context of Matthew 5? What was it? Why was it said?
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Yeah, context. The lack of paying attention to the context of what's being said is one reason there is so so much confusion in Christianity. It's also partly responsible for all of the denominations that exist. Christians are taught to proof text rather than to make an argument from Scripture. In Mathew 5 Jesus was telling His disciples how to conduct themselves. Mathew 5 opens with this.

    And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
    2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
    (Matt. 5:1-2 KJV)

    In the passage you quoted from Mathew 10 Jesus is telling that He had come to divide.
     
  13. genez

    genez Contributor

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    So.hmmmm. you are getting squirrelly with me? :angel: That is the intro!:holy:

    What was the context for Jesus saying the following?


    5 "Blessed are the meek,
    For they shall inherit the earth."



    and..

    What was the motivating reason and the context for this segment... (each have their own context)


    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
    39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two."


    Why would Jesus say such things? What was going on historically at that time that would have motivate such instruction in the second segment I showed you?
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The context is right there like I showed. He was teaching His Disciples. It's pretty clear. People just don't seem like it.
     
  15. Buzz_B

    Buzz_B Active Member

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    Obviously you have strong feelings about this subject. Is it that you consider guns a sport and have developed a love for the sport? Or is it that you fear death and that God will not protect you if you do not have a gun to protect yourself and make you feel secure?

    The United States may have done away with the frequency of institutionalizing crazies in mental health facilities to the degree compared to what it used to do, but I know some that are presently institutionalized, so they have not completely done away with it. And still we have the most people in prison per population than any other nation in the world, the number of which continues growing despite this greater security you speak of due to gun ownership.

    Your views strike me as a bit convenient to the desire that guns not be a problem. Do you really believe CNN made up the statistics in their article or that someone els did, “Almost 1300 children die and 5790 are treated for gunshot wounds annually in America...”

    Guns kill nearly 1,300 US children each year - CNN

    So you believe that, “ Japan during WWll would have invaded the west coast if it were not for so many of her citizens owning guns.” You can find more than a few URLs that refute you on that. The posted URL is not the only place where we find that your claim is entirely untrue:

    Misquoting Yamamoto - FactCheck.org

    Your understanding of what things such as the story of David and Goliath picture is also tainted by the outcome you desire. Young David was being used as a picture of the the Christ child and his courage by means of his trust in God. He has stood strong against many Goliaths and will continue onto crush all the kingdoms of this present day earth who oppose him, leaving only a remnant to be saved out of each one.

    You seem to hate the idea of one world government. The version that the evil one seeks to set up through god defiant men is but a false presentation mimicking the authentic one world government known as the kingdom of God ruled by Christ Jesus from it's capital city, the New Jerusalem.

    We know for a certainty that there are many murders that otherwise would have never been had men not committed idolatry and placed their trust in guns over God. Nobody in their right mind can call America a safer place to live today given the obvious increases of both murders and accidental deaths over time in the USA. You cannot point to any place where it has gotten better. It has only gotten worse. Even when we get our hopes up because one year seems a bit better than the previous, it always grows greater again. It may have ups and downs at times like the stock market, but the increase of both murders and accidental deaths in the long term has been very consistent at growing greater.

    The Scriptures are straight forward with us that our nations will not submit willingly to giving their kingdoms over to be ruled by Christ. And that is why Christ shepherd's them with an iron rod so that their remnant may be saved.

    Affection for guns is idolatry the same as is affection for money. Both stand between men and their full trust in God and this Son whom he appointed over us in place of Adam.

    Edit: Bear in mind that if the CNN report (“Almost 1300 children die and 5790 are treated for gunshot wounds annually in America...”) is anywhere close to accurate, similar situations to the one I related to you in my earlier post about walking in the basement garage door to find my 4 year old grandson standing there pointing a 9mm gun at me must happen even far more frequently than those numbers in that CNN report.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  16. genez

    genez Contributor

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    You sound like the guy who refused to carry a spare tire in the trunk. He abused Scripture to show that God will always take care of him .. according to his own desired terms with God.

    Interesting to note your type of reasoning and emphasis. Satan told the Lord something very similar to your line of reasoning while using the Word of God.


    5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
    6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

    ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’

    and,

    ‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
    Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”


    7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”

    Its Satan's use of Scripture and manipulative approach you have been following. Might as well let you know. It is.

    We are not yet where you wish it to be....

    "He shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,

    Neither shall they learn war anymore."

    We are not there yet... You act like someone who thinks we are there.

    If what you have reasoned out using Scripture to justify your position, were truth? Then, Paul would have been apostate for using the following illustration.

    "For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle?" 1 Cor 14:8
    Good Day, sir. You have said your "piece." As for me? I am going to have the whole.

     
  17. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think you’re on dodgy ground if you take an OT law, law as in part of the legal framework of a society, as a guide for personal behaviour now. There are specific OT laws that are no longer applicable in the same form now as then, so how do you choose which to take as literal, current, personal law? Jesus, as he said, could have annihilated his enemies at any time, he chose not to. He told us not to resist an evil person. Hard teachings indeed
     
  18. genez

    genez Contributor

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    You got confused with Law meaning it never makes sense to impliment. For Paul said...

    ALL Scripture is God breathed and to still have a purpose.... Not, just some of it. All..


    "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting
    and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly
    equipped for every good work."
    2 Tim 3:16-17​

    The sense of the Law we are not to be under is to follow the rituals and Levitical authority. As in... we are no longer to execute anyone for homosexual activity. But, God's attitude that was expressed about it has not changed, and is to be pointed to when someone claims is perfectly OK.

    You got to keep a balance. If not? Then murder would no longer hated and condemned by God.
     
  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    The laws that are no longer applicable are those we can not do in the conditions we are in. Since defending oneself when your life is threatened is not ceremonial or ritualistic but simply a matter of life and death, I fail to see your logic fitting into any aspect of my points. The question is, is it sin if I take the life of a man who breaks into my house and is raping my daughter? The answer is no... and if you prefer to sit there and watch it happen, you have that right. I won't... I will shoot him dead and deal with it later.
     
  20. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    The sense of the law we are not under is the guilty verdict, not individual commandments that deal only with our behavior. There is no Temple so Levitical laws are a moot point anyway (though God does call that priestly order everlasting) but what we can do we probably should do. That which stood against us was the verdict that said "death!" That is what Yeshua overcame.... not "do not steal."
     
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